All Blacks 2025
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
The System seems broken how the Fuck did we get here.
cheerleader media tell you everything is fine and dandy until it's not.
NZR in general appears to be a long way away from a true high performance outfit. Where is the pursuit of excellence? It ain't in insta posts and marketing, it's in making tough decisions that affect people, setting and keeping standards and objectively evaluating strengths and weaknesses.
We have vibes. And a dysfunctional org/board. And a Super comp that we've turned from 'best in class' to 'also ran'. And no money. And a development pathway that stutters at best. It's completely borked, and the chickens have come home to roost.
Yeah mate you have nailed it, but fuck me we should have never gotten to this place.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in England v All Blacks:
Backrow: Akira Ioane was never the answer.
He was against Australia, Man of the Match. Perth, September 2021.
And he was for the Blues.Oh please that match was a walk over for the ABs. Playing against the wallabies then was like shooting fish in a barrel. Against a decent team you’d have a point. Akira is just a fatter version of savea. We don’t need another back rower that can’t clean rucks
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@hikastags said in All Blacks 2025:
This is from 2024... but what a ridiculously large management team
Holy crap.
What the fuck is value-add of all these people?
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
The only practical way forward would be to:
Get rid of B Barrett, Savea, ALB, Reece
Fire Holland
New attack coach
New captain, S Barrett has earn his spot backSuper rugby teams are strong armed into developing a 6,10, and 15 for the all blacks. Meaning Love starts all games at 10 or 15.. Josh Jacomb is forced into the Highlander’s squad to start every match.
How's about we find out what the problems are first before solving them?
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2025:
Part of the reason why Rassie is so admired is that he put in place the systems that have elevated SA to the heights they are now at. He poured over the structural issues in Bok rugby as the General Manager: High Performance teams in 2012, before leaving for Munster and returning as the Director of rugby and Bok coach.
He had a forensic understanding of the talent that was available and also the bottlenecks that were stopping them from reaching their potential. He also oversaw a major revamp of the coaching structures and pathways. His legacy is so much more than just the Boks and WC triumphs and will likely last for a while after he calls it a day.
On Rassie, that’ stuff did take time and there were some ‘dark days’ along the way when he was head coach. Take 2018 - lost to Wales and England. Scraped by Scotland and that extra time try against France to win. And that was on the back of losing to the ABs, Oz and Argies in the RC.
So he brings in someone with all the experience for the 19 RWC and then steps away. No qualms with that and I like that.
So second bite at the cherry as the head coach after his assistant took over for 4 years.
I take nothing away from what he has and is doing but there were some difficult lessons along the way and changes to how they played. Rumblings from players and all that stuff that comes with not meeting fans high expectations.
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Against a decent team you’d have a point.
Apply that to everyone then. Don't be selective. Fact is Akira played really well for the ABs and went up a level for the Blues. He was MOTM and dominant in a number of his games. Fine, don't pick him - that's ultimately the call of the coach and selectors - but you better pick someone who does more for you.
Who do we get? Simon Parker? Finau? Va'ai? Scott Barrett at 6? Struggling to see those as step change options against good teams.
What I am not seeing with this coaching crowd is taking people with attributes (strength, speed, size, etc) and coaching them to better players. Dane Coles is the poster child of this, he went from wild child to incredible hooker. And fucking Jerome K, he developed massively. So did Ma'a. Fuck, pick me someone from this squad whose game has been improved by this outfit. I'll wait.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
The System seems broken how the Fuck did we get here.
cheerleader media tell you everything is fine and dandy until it's not.
NZR in general appears to be a long way away from a true high performance outfit. Where is the pursuit of excellence? It ain't in insta posts and marketing, it's in making tough decisions that affect people, setting and keeping standards and objectively evaluating strengths and weaknesses.
We have vibes. And a dysfunctional org/board. And a Super comp that we've turned from 'best in class' to 'also ran'. And no money. And a development pathway that stutters at best. It's completely borked, and the chickens have come home to roost.
I agree.
Sadly, the social media etc stuff is a now a need, so the organization needs to catch up and become professional without overloading the players with that shit.
The board has seemed to be only focused on that, I believe because in their minds, they saw Razor as the magic bullet; the key points you've mentioned about pathways and domestic comps they don't want to face up to. Just look at the shit that goes down here if you bring up one problem with NPC, which was a great story for Otago this year, but that still doesn't make it fit for purpose.
It's beyond this thread, but this commercial focus is a result of selling off to private equity. The brand now needs to generate much more revenue just for NZRU to stay in the same place.
They fucked it up royally. -
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Against a decent team you’d have a point.
Apply that to everyone then. Don't be selective. Fact is Akira played really well for the ABs and went up a level for the Blues. He was MOTM and dominant in a number of his games. Fine, don't pick him - that's ultimately the call of the coach and selectors - but you better pick someone who does more for you.
Who do we get? Simon Parker? Finau? Va'ai? Scott Barrett at 6? Struggling to see those as step change options against good teams.
What I am not seeing with this coaching crowd is taking people with attributes (strength, speed, size, etc) and coaching them to better players. Dane Coles is the poster child of this, he went from wild child to incredible hooker. And fucking Jerome K, he developed massively. So did Ma'a. Fuck, pick me someone from this squad whose game has been improved by this outfit. I'll wait.
Extra to that is that players can't escape an image that appears from early performances. In Akira's case, if he were a first year 6 under Cotter, he'd have been quickly ushered in to the ABs as the future. One of the best things about the 2000s coaches was that they didn't lock out players and continued to see their growth and benefit. It's a big issue in my mind that confirmatory bias appears to have crept into the coaches attitudes, not just the fans.
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Oh please that match was a walk over for the ABs. Playing against the wallabies then was like shooting fish in a barrel. Against a decent team you’d have a point. Akira is just a fatter version of savea. We don’t need another back rower that can’t clean rucks
In his last game against the Boks, Akira Ioane (off bench) was given a 7/10 by Paul Cully
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/129568195/all-blacks-player-ratings-rieko-ioane-shines-in-stunning-win-as-side-takes-huge-step-forward
"Akira Ioane. Made some telling carries against the tired Springboks in a good 21 minutes. 7"I think he can clean out rucks
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Against a decent team you’d have a point.
Apply that to everyone then. Don't be selective. Fact is Akira played really well for the ABs and went up a level for the Blues. He was MOTM and dominant in a number of his games. Fine, don't pick him - that's ultimately the call of the coach and selectors - but you better pick someone who does more for you.
Who do we get? Simon Parker? Finau? Va'ai? Scott Barrett at 6? Struggling to see those as step change options against good teams.
What I am not seeing with this coaching crowd is taking people with attributes (strength, speed, size, etc) and coaching them to better players. Dane Coles is the poster child of this, he went from wild child to incredible hooker. And fucking Jerome K, he developed massively. So did Ma'a. Fuck, pick me someone from this squad whose game has been improved by this outfit. I'll wait.
Extra to that is that players can't escape an image that appears from early performances. In Akira's case, if he were a first year 6 under Cotter, he'd have been quickly ushered in to the ABs as the future. One of the best things about the 2000s coaches was that they didn't lock out players and continued to see their growth and benefit. It's a big issue in my mind that confirmatory bias appears to have crept into the coaches attitudes, not just the fans.
The way GH treated Reuben Thorne springs to mind. Reportedly rang him personally to tell him he'd been dropped, gave him work ons, brought him back into the squad when he did it
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Against a decent team you’d have a point.
Apply that to everyone then. Don't be selective. Fact is Akira played really well for the ABs and went up a level for the Blues. He was MOTM and dominant in a number of his games. Fine, don't pick him - that's ultimately the call of the coach and selectors - but you better pick someone who does more for you.
Who do we get? Simon Parker? Finau? Va'ai? Scott Barrett at 6? Struggling to see those as step change options against good teams.
What I am not seeing with this coaching crowd is taking people with attributes (strength, speed, size, etc) and coaching them to better players. Dane Coles is the poster child of this, he went from wild child to incredible hooker. And fucking Jerome K, he developed massively. So did Ma'a. Fuck, pick me someone from this squad whose game has been improved by this outfit. I'll wait.
Extra to that is that players can't escape an image that appears from early performances. In Akira's case, if he were a first year 6 under Cotter, he'd have been quickly ushered in to the ABs as the future. One of the best things about the 2000s coaches was that they didn't lock out players and continued to see their growth and benefit. It's a big issue in my mind that confirmatory bias appears to have crept into the coaches attitudes, not just the fans.
The way GH treated Reuben Thorne springs to mind. Reportedly rang him personally to tell him he'd been dropped, gave him work ons, brought him back into the squad when he did it
See that's the point! Thorne picked up the phone, so you can pick him...
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Against a decent team you’d have a point.
Apply that to everyone then. Don't be selective. Fact is Akira played really well for the ABs and went up a level for the Blues. He was MOTM and dominant in a number of his games. Fine, don't pick him - that's ultimately the call of the coach and selectors - but you better pick someone who does more for you.
Who do we get? Simon Parker? Finau? Va'ai? Scott Barrett at 6? Struggling to see those as step change options against good teams.
What I am not seeing with this coaching crowd is taking people with attributes (strength, speed, size, etc) and coaching them to better players. Dane Coles is the poster child of this, he went from wild child to incredible hooker. And fucking Jerome K, he developed massively. So did Ma'a. Fuck, pick me someone from this squad whose game has been improved by this outfit. I'll wait.
Extra to that is that players can't escape an image that appears from early performances. In Akira's case, if he were a first year 6 under Cotter, he'd have been quickly ushered in to the ABs as the future. One of the best things about the 2000s coaches was that they didn't lock out players and continued to see their growth and benefit. It's a big issue in my mind that confirmatory bias appears to have crept into the coaches attitudes, not just the fans.
The way GH treated Reuben Thorne springs to mind. Reportedly rang him personally to tell him he'd been dropped, gave him work ons, brought him back into the squad when he did it
Thats where i was critical of the handling of Sotutu.
He was immense with his response and would have smashed all his work ons and was player of the comp. Still not selected.
Its a really bad look for and sends a poor message to players
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Against a decent team you’d have a point.
Apply that to everyone then. Don't be selective. Fact is Akira played really well for the ABs and went up a level for the Blues. He was MOTM and dominant in a number of his games. Fine, don't pick him - that's ultimately the call of the coach and selectors - but you better pick someone who does more for you.
Who do we get? Simon Parker? Finau? Va'ai? Scott Barrett at 6? Struggling to see those as step change options against good teams.
What I am not seeing with this coaching crowd is taking people with attributes (strength, speed, size, etc) and coaching them to better players. Dane Coles is the poster child of this, he went from wild child to incredible hooker. And fucking Jerome K, he developed massively. So did Ma'a. Fuck, pick me someone from this squad whose game has been improved by this outfit. I'll wait.
Extra to that is that players can't escape an image that appears from early performances. In Akira's case, if he were a first year 6 under Cotter, he'd have been quickly ushered in to the ABs as the future. One of the best things about the 2000s coaches was that they didn't lock out players and continued to see their growth and benefit. It's a big issue in my mind that confirmatory bias appears to have crept into the coaches attitudes, not just the fans.
The way GH treated Reuben Thorne springs to mind. Reportedly rang him personally to tell him he'd been dropped, gave him work ons, brought him back into the squad when he did it
Thats where i was critical of the handling of Sotutu.
He was immense with his response and would have smashed all his work ons and was player of the comp. Still not selected.
Its a really bad look for and sends a poor message to players
SR player of the year wasn't he?
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Against a decent team you’d have a point.
Apply that to everyone then. Don't be selective. Fact is Akira played really well for the ABs and went up a level for the Blues. He was MOTM and dominant in a number of his games. Fine, don't pick him - that's ultimately the call of the coach and selectors - but you better pick someone who does more for you.
Who do we get? Simon Parker? Finau? Va'ai? Scott Barrett at 6? Struggling to see those as step change options against good teams.
What I am not seeing with this coaching crowd is taking people with attributes (strength, speed, size, etc) and coaching them to better players. Dane Coles is the poster child of this, he went from wild child to incredible hooker. And fucking Jerome K, he developed massively. So did Ma'a. Fuck, pick me someone from this squad whose game has been improved by this outfit. I'll wait.
Extra to that is that players can't escape an image that appears from early performances. In Akira's case, if he were a first year 6 under Cotter, he'd have been quickly ushered in to the ABs as the future. One of the best things about the 2000s coaches was that they didn't lock out players and continued to see their growth and benefit. It's a big issue in my mind that confirmatory bias appears to have crept into the coaches attitudes, not just the fans.
The way GH treated Reuben Thorne springs to mind. Reportedly rang him personally to tell him he'd been dropped, gave him work ons, brought him back into the squad when he did it
Thorne got selected by four different coaches so obviously wasn't the invisible suitcase that everyone thought he was. In saying that I remember his try in the 2003 semi final and very little else though !
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Against a decent team you’d have a point.
Apply that to everyone then. Don't be selective. Fact is Akira played really well for the ABs and went up a level for the Blues. He was MOTM and dominant in a number of his games. Fine, don't pick him - that's ultimately the call of the coach and selectors - but you better pick someone who does more for you.
Who do we get? Simon Parker? Finau? Va'ai? Scott Barrett at 6? Struggling to see those as step change options against good teams.
What I am not seeing with this coaching crowd is taking people with attributes (strength, speed, size, etc) and coaching them to better players. Dane Coles is the poster child of this, he went from wild child to incredible hooker. And fucking Jerome K, he developed massively. So did Ma'a. Fuck, pick me someone from this squad whose game has been improved by this outfit. I'll wait.
Extra to that is that players can't escape an image that appears from early performances. In Akira's case, if he were a first year 6 under Cotter, he'd have been quickly ushered in to the ABs as the future. One of the best things about the 2000s coaches was that they didn't lock out players and continued to see their growth and benefit. It's a big issue in my mind that confirmatory bias appears to have crept into the coaches attitudes, not just the fans.
The way GH treated Reuben Thorne springs to mind. Reportedly rang him personally to tell him he'd been dropped, gave him work ons, brought him back into the squad when he did it
Thats where i was critical of the handling of Sotutu.
He was immense with his response and would have smashed all his work ons and was player of the comp. Still not selected.
Its a really bad look for and sends a poor message to players
The word here, from memory, was that he was still too slow to get off the ground.
So, the second issue we've got is that the criteria by which they give players works on may reflect a misunderstanding of the skills needed for international rugby - do we need 30 low quality involvements from our number 8 or do we need 15 high quality point-scoring / defensive stopping involvements?
There is also the issue that some players (e.g., Savea) can get away with the latter, but let's put that to the side.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
Against a decent team you’d have a point.
Apply that to everyone then. Don't be selective. Fact is Akira played really well for the ABs and went up a level for the Blues. He was MOTM and dominant in a number of his games. Fine, don't pick him - that's ultimately the call of the coach and selectors - but you better pick someone who does more for you.
Who do we get? Simon Parker? Finau? Va'ai? Scott Barrett at 6? Struggling to see those as step change options against good teams.
What I am not seeing with this coaching crowd is taking people with attributes (strength, speed, size, etc) and coaching them to better players. Dane Coles is the poster child of this, he went from wild child to incredible hooker. And fucking Jerome K, he developed massively. So did Ma'a. Fuck, pick me someone from this squad whose game has been improved by this outfit. I'll wait.
Extra to that is that players can't escape an image that appears from early performances. In Akira's case, if he were a first year 6 under Cotter, he'd have been quickly ushered in to the ABs as the future. One of the best things about the 2000s coaches was that they didn't lock out players and continued to see their growth and benefit. It's a big issue in my mind that confirmatory bias appears to have crept into the coaches attitudes, not just the fans.
The way GH treated Reuben Thorne springs to mind. Reportedly rang him personally to tell him he'd been dropped, gave him work ons, brought him back into the squad when he did it
Thats where i was critical of the handling of Sotutu.
He was immense with his response and would have smashed all his work ons and was player of the comp. Still not selected.
Its a really bad look for and sends a poor message to players
The word here, from memory, was that he was still too slow to get off the ground.
So, the second issue we've got is that the criteria by which they give players works on may reflect a misunderstanding of the skills needed for international rugby - do we need 30 low quality involvements from our number 8 or do we need 15 high quality point-scoring / defensive stopping involvements?
There is also the issue that some players (e.g., Savea) can get away with the latter, but let's put that to the side.
Ardie is barely involved in rucks so of course he can get off the ground when he's not even on the ground!
We are all on the outside, but it felt very much like there were different rules for different players. Some guys just can't do enough to earn a spot. Other guys can make mistake after mistake and retain their spot. All people want to see is fairness and meritocracy, all these guys are creating is suspicion and lack of trust based on their actions
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
The way they talked about Hoskins and how he doesn't play both sides of the ball reminded me of the way Mitch talked about Cully and how he held the ball in the wrong hand. Rude and disrespectful
That was absolute bullshit however Mitchell got vilified for doing exactly what people wish Razor would do to Beauden Barrett ( jettison a guy whose electrifying pace had dropped just a tad )
