All Blacks 2025
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
This is the problem I have with the Paps scenario and by extension Akira (don't tell me he wouldn't have stayed if they asked) and Hoskins. He was given work ons and he appears to have done what they asked. But he still doesn't get picked and lots of fans would base their opinions on whether he should get another shot or not purely on past performance. But if we did that we would have never seen the best from rodders or Kaino, who were both dropped and told to go away and work on stuff. I think we can all agree they ended up having pretty good AB careers the second time around
For me whatever the workons for Papali'i were are misguided BS. The current set of loose forwards collectively are a defensive failure and not up to test standard. They were selected as hybrid jack of all trades because Razor thought that the loose forwards should be able to play all positions.
The record scores are all defensive issues. When the ABs get a 12 point lead they should win easily.
You dont see nominee world player of the year PSDT playing at 8 or openside. He sticks to blindside and very occasionally plays at lock. Hes primarily a specialist who dominates in defense and at the breakdown then occasionally chimes in with a opportunitic run.
Hes a specialist who doesnt suit the role of 8 or openside.
At the moment we dont have that player in our loose forward mix.
South Africa are easily the best team in the world at the moment and their loose forward trio are all primarily specialists. Kolisi at openside and Weise at 8. You dont see Weise playing at openside for his club sides like Lakai often does. Even Smith primarily comes on for Kolisi. He can cover different positions but he usually replaces Kolisi
Why do we have Sititi replacing Parker when they are completely different players? Even the Chiefs were replacing similar for similar in Finau for Parker.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nogusta said in All Blacks 2025:
You can't say its "DP's decision" unless you have some evidence that Razor actually picked him and DP said no.
Razor: "Dalton I've picked you for the All Blacks"
DP: "No thanks.
Nailed it bruv
Got the 'call up' whilst with the ABXVs
Said thanks but no thanks.
Won't play for a coach he has lost respect for
NZRU considering sanction/fine of some
kind.
He got shafted last year around the time of the Northern tour and again this year.
Was it (this years shafting) to do with his non selection? Yes and no.Ok if that's his principled position then fair enough.
Im out of touch with the younger generation. They are a lot more high minded than me.
Im more inclined to grub around in the mud if I have to get the things I think will benefit my family in the long run.
Ive been critical of Razor and I dont like Ryan but at the end of the day they are just like everyone else - flawed human beings. A bit of forgiveness rather than holding grudges and seeking revenge can be beneficial.
On the other hand sometimes its not worth getting involved with toxic people.
Tough position.
One thing is for certain, if players are refusing to accept call ups then the ABs current culture as at an all time low.
Brad Thorn made the news when he turned it down. Is there any other cases of guys actually saying no ?
John Leslie? To play for Scotland.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nogusta said in All Blacks 2025:
You can't say its "DP's decision" unless you have some evidence that Razor actually picked him and DP said no.
Razor: "Dalton I've picked you for the All Blacks"
DP: "No thanks.
Nailed it bruv
Got the 'call up' whilst with the ABXVs
Said thanks but no thanks.
Won't play for a coach he has lost respect for
NZRU considering sanction/fine of some
kind.
He got shafted last year around the time of the Northern tour and again this year.
Was it (this years shafting) to do with his non selection? Yes and no.Ok if that's his principled position then fair enough.
Im out of touch with the younger generation. They are a lot more high minded than me.
Im more inclined to grub around in the mud if I have to get the things I think will benefit my family in the long run.
Ive been critical of Razor and I dont like Ryan but at the end of the day they are just like everyone else - flawed human beings. A bit of forgiveness rather than holding grudges and seeking revenge can be beneficial.
On the other hand sometimes its not worth getting involved with toxic people.
Tough position.
One thing is for certain, if players are refusing to accept call ups then the ABs current culture as at an all time low.
Brad Thorn made the news when he turned it down. Is there any other cases of guys actually saying no ?
John Leslie? To play for Scotland.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
You dont see nominee world player of the year PSDT playing at 8 or openside. He sticks to blindside and very occasionally plays at lock. Hes primarily a specialist who dominates in defense and at the breakdown then occasionally chimes in with a opportunitic run.
The polar opposite of certain All Blacks loose forwards, who actively avoid making tackles and the breakdown to better position themselves for a run or chip and chase.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
I get you might be pissed off but the sense of entitlement for a fringe All Black player to do that is a tad pathetic. Can you imagine anyone in any other serious job behaving like that?
Well, I've walked away from business clients as being associated with them would be bad for my business/career prospects.
Yes but I’m not sure the two are comparable. One is a smart business decision, the other is behaving like a brat. Dalton is a good player but he doesn’t have the personal accolades to be demanding anything from anyone
You asked the question, got an answer, then disregarded the answer
You’re that sort of parent…..
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
You dont see nominee world player of the year PSDT playing at 8 or openside. He sticks to blindside and very occasionally plays at lock. Hes primarily a specialist who dominates in defense and at the breakdown then occasionally chimes in with a opportunitic run.
The polar opposite of certain All Blacks loose forwards, who actively avoid making tackles and the breakdown to better position themselves for a run or chip and chase.
That is certainly a major issue. 3 out of 4 of our loose forwards in the weekend are first and foremost carriers over everything else.
Parker is a bit more focused on defence and rucks but his work rate isnt close to someone like PSDT - neither is Vaa'is or Finaus.
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@Tim said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:
I agree in principle with this. But, the only thing keeping people here is the chance to be an AB.
You can make far more money overseas, with far less pressure, and be treated very very well.
So, if you deem the environment to be toxic, and believe that the road back is blocked, and have a young family... I can easily see why someone would choose to stay out of the environment.
The proof of the pudding will be in the eating; Paps is likely on a pretty good contract now, but that won't last without further selection. So if he buggers off overseas - and he would command a very good contract halfway between a WC - we may look back at this differently.
I think that goes for coaches too. The pressure and crap that comes their way does take its toll. Mitchell post 03 RWC talked about it. Henry in that post 07 period and the reapplying phase. Even the old stern tough headmaster felt the effects of it all. Foster in that last two years when it got fever pitched.
Who’d want it? There’s money and behind the scenes gigs that don’t have this sort of almost do or die pressure on it.
On the other hand there is no prestige from coaching a Japanese club team, other than the money and corporate perks. It's the same thing that keeps many talented people unhappily locked into academia.
Robertson has talked about his desire to win World Cups (plural) with different teams, which sounded like something an undergrad student might say about winning a noble prize and becoming a billionaire ... Walk before you can run ...
Conversely my experience with many academics is that they stay in it because of perceived prestige - setting outside the ‘benefits’ of the corporate world. Happy to play the martyr for the glory of another peer reviewed piece.
The only thing I’ll say on the comparison is that if an AB coach didn’t have a goal of winning a WC then that would be problematic on a couple of fronts. Yes the grandiose dreams of two is misplaced, but it doesn’t take away from the goal (expectation) to win one whilst in the black hot chair.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal The Ardie situation is arguably even tougher than the BB situation. It feels like the Barrett situation will run its course following this tour, where he physically is not up to it and its fairly obvious even to the lesser engaged fans. Beaudie could retire from international footy or just have an 'injury cloud' and fade into a much lesser role in the squad. Its not a hard decision for Razor to make.
Ardie on the other hand is actually still in seemingly great physical condition, but is just refusing to be a role player in the team. For one, its not immediately clear that the coaching staff even see this issue, but assuming they actually do some analysis on this - Razor has to either re-train him into actually peforming his core role (& him actually doing it on the field) or drop him for an actual 7 who can and will tackle and hit rucks all day. For a coach/organisation that seems to be so heavily dictated by broader influence, i dont see this happening until it becomes so bad that everyone starts to agree (as per BB situation) and even then all it takes is a short instagram snippet of a turnover or big dummie and the masses will be satisfied that all is well. I just cant see a situation where Ardie is dropped, and i cant see one where he changes his play. So will be a holding pattern through to the RWC
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
You dont see nominee world player of the year PSDT playing at 8 or openside. He sticks to blindside and very occasionally plays at lock. Hes primarily a specialist who dominates in defense and at the breakdown then occasionally chimes in with a opportunitic run.
The polar opposite of certain All Blacks loose forwards, who actively avoid making tackles and the breakdown to better position themselves for a run or chip and chase.
That is certainly a major issue. 3 out of 4 of our loose forwards in the weekend are first and foremost carriers over everything else.
Parker is a bit more focused on defence and rucks but his work rate isnt close to someone like PSDT - neither is Vaa'is or Finaus.
At least when Parker cleans someone they stay cleaned!
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@DurryMexted said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal The Ardie situation is arguably even tougher than the BB situation. It feels like the Barrett situation will run its course following this tour, where he physically is not up to it and its fairly obvious even to the lesser engaged fans. Beaudie could retire from international footy or just have an 'injury cloud' and fade into a much lesser role in the squad. Its not a hard decision for Razor to make.
Ardie on the other hand is actually still in seemingly great physical condition, but is just refusing to be a role player in the team. For one, its not immediately clear that the coaching staff even see this issue, but assuming they actually do some analysis on this - Razor has to either re-train him into actually peforming his core role (& him actually doing it on the field) or drop him for an actual 7 who can and will tackle and hit rucks all day. For a coach/organisation that seems to be so heavily dictated by broader influence, i dont see this happening until it becomes so bad that everyone starts to agree (as per BB situation) and even then all it takes is a short instagram snippet of a turnover or big dummie and the masses will be satisfied that all is well. I just cant see a situation where Ardie is dropped, and i cant see one where he changes his play. So will be a holding pattern through to the RWC
the wider public are finally starting to turn on BB and even Scott B
The wider public still think Ardie was unlucky not to get shortlisted for World Player of the Year (yep, i have seen calls like this) so there is no pressure.
Read comments sections, for every call that Savea is not doing his job there are 5 that want him to be captain because he's got Samoan pride and mana and dumb shit like that.
Staunch facials and sick social media can get you a long way these days. Beast mode! -
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
This is the problem I have with the Paps scenario and by extension Akira (don't tell me he wouldn't have stayed if they asked) and Hoskins. He was given work ons and he appears to have done what they asked. But he still doesn't get picked and lots of fans would base their opinions on whether he should get another shot or not purely on past performance. But if we did that we would have never seen the best from rodders or Kaino, who were both dropped and told to go away and work on stuff. I think we can all agree they ended up having pretty good AB careers the second time around
Why do we have Sititi replacing Parker when they are completely different players? Even the Chiefs were replacing similar for similar in Finau for Parker.
I think Robertson decided at the start of this year that he wanted to have 1 x lump + Savea + Sititi. The latter two being considered too good to leave out. Because of that, his lump needs to be a first class lineout target, a defensive enforcer and effective ball carrier in heavy traffic, and have a massive workrate hitting rucks and making tackles. Unfortunately for us that player doesn't exist.
Sititi post-injury and shift to 8 and a tighter role underwhelmed. So he's now gone with Lakai to start and Sititi on the bench, but this changes little as Lakai is predominantly a carrier too, and not the biggest guy, and not a lineout target.Parker can't last 80 even at Super level, so he has to be replaced. We aren't clever enough / too risk averse to have 2 loosies on the bench. And as per above, Sititi too good to leave out.
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@DurryMexted said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal The Ardie situation is arguably even tougher than the BB situation. It feels like the Barrett situation will run its course following this tour, where he physically is not up to it and its fairly obvious even to the lesser engaged fans. Beaudie could retire from international footy or just have an 'injury cloud' and fade into a much lesser role in the squad. Its not a hard decision for Razor to make.
Ardie on the other hand is actually still in seemingly great physical condition, but is just refusing to be a role player in the team. For one, its not immediately clear that the coaching staff even see this issue, but assuming they actually do some analysis on this - Razor has to either re-train him into actually peforming his core role (& him actually doing it on the field) or drop him for an actual 7 who can and will tackle and hit rucks all day. For a coach/organisation that seems to be so heavily dictated by broader influence, i dont see this happening until it becomes so bad that everyone starts to agree (as per BB situation) and even then all it takes is a short instagram snippet of a turnover or big dummie and the masses will be satisfied that all is well. I just cant see a situation where Ardie is dropped, and i cant see one where he changes his play. So will be a holding pattern through to the RWC
The BB situation has a limited timeline because of Mo'unga coming back anyway - it's just a disgusting shortsighted waste of development opportunity which will leave us in a worse position post WC.
Ardie is a problem, which becomes a bigger problem if you want to pick Sititi too.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
This is the problem I have with the Paps scenario and by extension Akira (don't tell me he wouldn't have stayed if they asked) and Hoskins. He was given work ons and he appears to have done what they asked. But he still doesn't get picked and lots of fans would base their opinions on whether he should get another shot or not purely on past performance. But if we did that we would have never seen the best from rodders or Kaino, who were both dropped and told to go away and work on stuff. I think we can all agree they ended up having pretty good AB careers the second time around
For me whatever the workons for Papali'i were are misguided BS. The current set of loose forwards collectively are a defensive failure and not up to test standard. They were selected as hybrid jack of all trades because Razor thought that the loose forwards should be able to play all positions.
The record scores are all defensive issues. When the ABs get a 12 point lead they should win easily.
You dont see nominee world player of the year PSDT playing at 8 or openside. He sticks to blindside and very occasionally plays at lock. Hes primarily a specialist who dominates in defense and at the breakdown then occasionally chimes in with a opportunitic run.
Hes a specialist who doesnt suit the role of 8 or openside.
At the moment we dont have that player in our loose forward mix.
South Africa are easily the best team in the world at the moment and their loose forward trio are all primarily specialists. Kolisi at openside and Weise at 8. You dont see Weise playing at openside for his club sides like Lakai often does. Even Smith primarily comes on for Kolisi. He can cover different positions but he usually replaces Kolisi
Why do we have Sititi replacing Parker when they are completely different players? Even the Chiefs were replacing similar for similar in Finau for Parker.
You make some great points, just might have missed my point
.If you give a guy work ons and he does these, then you fail to pick him anyway, what message does that send? Could he take you at your word, or would he start to feel that he was being lied to and that you actually had no intention to give him another chance?
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@DurryMexted said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal The Ardie situation is arguably even tougher than the BB situation. It feels like the Barrett situation will run its course following this tour, where he physically is not up to it and its fairly obvious even to the lesser engaged fans. Beaudie could retire from international footy or just have an 'injury cloud' and fade into a much lesser role in the squad. Its not a hard decision for Razor to make.
Ardie on the other hand is actually still in seemingly great physical condition, but is just refusing to be a role player in the team. For one, its not immediately clear that the coaching staff even see this issue, but assuming they actually do some analysis on this - Razor has to either re-train him into actually peforming his core role (& him actually doing it on the field) or drop him for an actual 7 who can and will tackle and hit rucks all day. For a coach/organisation that seems to be so heavily dictated by broader influence, i dont see this happening until it becomes so bad that everyone starts to agree (as per BB situation) and even then all it takes is a short instagram snippet of a turnover or big dummie and the masses will be satisfied that all is well. I just cant see a situation where Ardie is dropped, and i cant see one where he changes his play. So will be a holding pattern through to the RWC
The BB situation has a limited timeline because of Mo'unga coming back anyway - it's just a disgusting shortsighted waste of development opportunity which will leave us in a worse position post WC.
Ardie is a problem, which becomes a bigger problem if you want to pick Sititi too.
Well, Mounga was missing tackles six years ago in vital games, so that's unlikely to improved as time has marched on.
His one trick is using his speed to fix forwards in the backline, again at what 33(?) that pace has to be fading, and it was a trick that worked great at super rugby level but was only effective at Test level against minnows.
He's not the answer either, just another step in the lowering the AB standard down from Test level to Super Rugby level. We'll look great with a lead, score some pretty trys in some games, and as soon as the heat comes in with a team with a strong forward pack and strong defence, we'll crack like we have for the past 18 months.
If we don't change the coaches now we have little chance of winning a QF in a World Cup, yet alone winning the thing. And we'll have more record losses on the way.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nogusta said in All Blacks 2025:
You can't say its "DP's decision" unless you have some evidence that Razor actually picked him and DP said no.
Razor: "Dalton I've picked you for the All Blacks"
DP: "No thanks.
Nailed it bruv
Got the 'call up' whilst with the ABXVs
Said thanks but no thanks.
Won't play for a coach he has lost respect for
NZRU considering sanction/fine of some
kind.
He got shafted last year around the time of the Northern tour and again this year.
Was it (this years shafting) to do with his non selection? Yes and no.Ok if that's his principled position then fair enough.
Im out of touch with the younger generation. They are a lot more high minded than me.
Im more inclined to grub around in the mud if I have to get the things I think will benefit my family in the long run.
Ive been critical of Razor and I dont like Ryan but at the end of the day they are just like everyone else - flawed human beings. A bit of forgiveness rather than holding grudges and seeking revenge can be beneficial.
On the other hand sometimes its not worth getting involved with toxic people.
Tough position.
One thing is for certain, if players are refusing to accept call ups then the ABs current culture as at an all time low.
Good post.
A bit beyond this thread, but as someone who works with new young people every year, I would say that our generations focus on pragmatism has become dramatically less important - some will act against their best interests emphasizing personal well being and current priorities in a way that I find bizarre but does seem to actually work for them (btw, I'm not talking about the feverish, ideological purity of this generation to some ideas, despite clear evidence to the contrary in support of a doctrine).
Let's see where this lands, I suspect we'll have to wait for some biographies to find out.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@DurryMexted said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal The Ardie situation is arguably even tougher than the BB situation. It feels like the Barrett situation will run its course following this tour, where he physically is not up to it and its fairly obvious even to the lesser engaged fans. Beaudie could retire from international footy or just have an 'injury cloud' and fade into a much lesser role in the squad. Its not a hard decision for Razor to make.
Ardie on the other hand is actually still in seemingly great physical condition, but is just refusing to be a role player in the team. For one, its not immediately clear that the coaching staff even see this issue, but assuming they actually do some analysis on this - Razor has to either re-train him into actually peforming his core role (& him actually doing it on the field) or drop him for an actual 7 who can and will tackle and hit rucks all day. For a coach/organisation that seems to be so heavily dictated by broader influence, i dont see this happening until it becomes so bad that everyone starts to agree (as per BB situation) and even then all it takes is a short instagram snippet of a turnover or big dummie and the masses will be satisfied that all is well. I just cant see a situation where Ardie is dropped, and i cant see one where he changes his play. So will be a holding pattern through to the RWC
The BB situation has a limited timeline because of Mo'unga coming back anyway - it's just a disgusting shortsighted waste of development opportunity which will leave us in a worse position post WC.
Ardie is a problem, which becomes a bigger problem if you want to pick Sititi too.
Well, Mounga was missing tackles six years ago in vital games, so that's unlikely to improved as time has marched on.
His one trick is using his speed to fix forwards in the backline, again at what 33(?) that pace has to be fading, and it was a trick that worked great at super rugby level but was only effective at Test level against minnows.
He's not the answer either, just another step in the lowering the AB standard down from Test level to Super Rugby level. We'll look great with a lead, score some pretty trys in some games, and as soon as the heat comes in with a team with a strong forward pack and strong defence, we'll crack like we have for the past 18 months.
If we don't change the coaches now we have little chance of winning a QF in a World Cup, yet alone winning the thing. And we'll have more record losses on the way.
Yeah look I don't see Mo'unga as the solution to the ABs problems - and if he is, it's a very short term one - but he is the end of the BB problem.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
If you give a guy work ons and he does these, then you fail to pick him anyway, what message does that send? Could he take you at your word, or would he start to feel that he was being lied to and that you actually had no intention to give him another chance?
if you've ever worked on the door of a bar or club, this is the "sorry mate, not in those shoes" tactic. Look, we both know you're blind, but this is less likely to result in an argument and quite possibly a fight.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@DurryMexted said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal The Ardie situation is arguably even tougher than the BB situation. It feels like the Barrett situation will run its course following this tour, where he physically is not up to it and its fairly obvious even to the lesser engaged fans. Beaudie could retire from international footy or just have an 'injury cloud' and fade into a much lesser role in the squad. Its not a hard decision for Razor to make.
Ardie on the other hand is actually still in seemingly great physical condition, but is just refusing to be a role player in the team. For one, its not immediately clear that the coaching staff even see this issue, but assuming they actually do some analysis on this - Razor has to either re-train him into actually peforming his core role (& him actually doing it on the field) or drop him for an actual 7 who can and will tackle and hit rucks all day. For a coach/organisation that seems to be so heavily dictated by broader influence, i dont see this happening until it becomes so bad that everyone starts to agree (as per BB situation) and even then all it takes is a short instagram snippet of a turnover or big dummie and the masses will be satisfied that all is well. I just cant see a situation where Ardie is dropped, and i cant see one where he changes his play. So will be a holding pattern through to the RWC
The BB situation has a limited timeline because of Mo'unga coming back anyway - it's just a disgusting shortsighted waste of development opportunity which will leave us in a worse position post WC.
Ardie is a problem, which becomes a bigger problem if you want to pick Sititi too.
Well, Mounga was missing tackles six years ago in vital games, so that's unlikely to improved as time has marched on.
His one trick is using his speed to fix forwards in the backline, again at what 33(?) that pace has to be fading, and it was a trick that worked great at super rugby level but was only effective at Test level against minnows.
He's not the answer either, just another step in the lowering the AB standard down from Test level to Super Rugby level. We'll look great with a lead, score some pretty trys in some games, and as soon as the heat comes in with a team with a strong forward pack and strong defence, we'll crack like we have for the past 18 months.
If we don't change the coaches now we have little chance of winning a QF in a World Cup, yet alone winning the thing. And we'll have more record losses on the way.
Yeah look I don't see Mo'unga as the solution to the ABs problems - and if he is, it's a very short term one - but he is the end of the BB problem.
Be careful what you wish for is my warning, things are going to get worse IMO. If we pick has-been-never-was type players like RM, the worse will be coming quickly.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
If you give a guy work ons and he does these, then you fail to pick him anyway, what message does that send? Could he take you at your word, or would he start to feel that he was being lied to and that you actually had no intention to give him another chance?
if you've ever worked on the door of a bar or club, this is the "sorry mate, not in those shoes" tactic. Look, we both know you're blind, but this is less likely to result in an argument and quite possibly a fight.
It is. Hoskins went and put in all the effort to go home and get some fucking great shoes too. That'd fuck me right off.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
If you give a guy work ons and he does these, then you fail to pick him anyway, what message does that send? Could he take you at your word, or would he start to feel that he was being lied to and that you actually had no intention to give him another chance?
if you've ever worked on the door of a bar or club, this is the "sorry mate, not in those shoes" tactic. Look, we both know you're blind, but this is less likely to result in an argument and quite possibly a fight.
It is. Hoskins went and put in all the effort to go home and get some fucking great shoes too. That'd fuck me right off.
And regularly outplayed the guy picked ahead of him, once in a Super Rugby final.
