All Blacks 2026
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@pukunui said in All Blacks 2026:
@ShaquilleOatmeal
It seems people have forgotten just how bad 2022 was.- First home/series loss to Ireland
- First loss to Argentina (at home)
- Well beaten by Boks in the first game
- Saved by the ref calling time wasting against the Wallabies with time almost up.
- Close calls against Japan and Scotland
- Escaping with a draw v England
All of this coming off the back of the 2021 eoyt where we got smacked by ireland and france and had to sack multiple assistant coaches.
Also worth remembering this was all with multiple AB greats still in the team and a 10 who was a much better player than 2025 BB.
2025 was shit, but I would argue 2022 was rock bottom.
It was ordinary, saved by the Boks win in Joburg, but I think we showed signs that there was light at the end of the tunnel for 2023. There were a few hairy moments after thw Joburg test, but I felt at the time that it was to be expected with the coaching team changing mid season and we did also hammer Argentina and the Wallabies in the return fixtures that year. I felt like we were a more settled XV at the end of 2022 and the coaches knew what their best lineup was going into the 2023 RWC.
Can't say I feel the same optimism going into 2026 and they still seem unsure on their best XV.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:
Perhaps ask A1 on winning number of games, which after all is the point of tests, if that's how you get your rugby knowledge mate.
I know it's old fashioned , but genuinely watching rugby has always been the way I have only ever really judged teams. And not just losses, but wins too, I have seen wins (including this year) that have looked pretty average , and losses that have been pretty good.Though I can understand that's how many get a lot their rugby (or a lot of sport) info, just ask A1, or/and watch highlights (then look at shortened stats) perhaps takes less time etc.
I got AI to do a bit of maths because it was quicker than doing it myself. Nothing to do with my rugby knowledge. I’m just trying to find out how years I wasn’t around for were as bad or worse than in recent times. Doesn’t sound like they are unless you go by the simplistic wins/losses stat which can be found very easily. And as you point out, it’s the nature of the performances that matter. Those in 2025, with senior players flat out giving up, lack of basic skills, players avoiding their core duties, are the worst I’ve seen by a long way. I’m not hearing examples from the past that compare to what we saw last year.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:
@pukunui said in All Blacks 2026:
@ShaquilleOatmeal
It seems people have forgotten just how bad 2022 was.- First home/series loss to Ireland
- First loss to Argentina (at home)
- Well beaten by Boks in the first game
- Saved by the ref calling time wasting against the Wallabies with time almost up.
- Close calls against Japan and Scotland
- Escaping with a draw v England
All of this coming off the back of the 2021 eoyt where we got smacked by ireland and france and had to sack multiple assistant coaches.
Also worth remembering this was all with multiple AB greats still in the team and a 10 who was a much better player than 2025 BB.
2025 was shit, but I would argue 2022 was rock bottom.
It was ordinary, saved by the Boks win in Joburg, but I think we showed signs that there was light at the end of the tunnel for 2023. There were a few hairy moments after thw Joburg test, but I felt at the time that it was to be expected with the coaching team changing mid season and we did also hammer Argentina and the Wallabies in the return fixtures that year. I felt like we were a more settled XV at the end of 2022 and the coaches knew what their best lineup was going into the 2023 RWC.
Can't say I feel the same optimism going into 2026 and they still seem unsure on their best XV.
2022 certainly stands out, and is the right year to compare to for this last year. In 2022, the team was underperforming and the NZRU made changes to the coaching group that did dramatically improve the quality of play. The Twickenham result was a shocker in 2023, but we went a fluffybunny hair away from winning a WC - had we a proper kicking coach or had they let Dmac loose 5 minutes earlier, we win that game, even with the RC.
So, that raises the question, does this caoching group need the same realignment. I think yes, but also that we need to completely shake up everything about coaching development, application, and selection. There is rot in the NZRU and the silly procedures they use to get the result that they want which needs to be starched out as well.
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@pukunui said in All Blacks 2026:
@ShaquilleOatmeal
It seems people have forgotten just how bad 2022 was.- First home/series loss to Ireland
- First loss to Argentina (at home)
- Well beaten by Boks in the first game
- Saved by the ref calling time wasting against the Wallabies with time almost up.
- Close calls against Japan and Scotland
- Escaping with a draw v England
All of this coming off the back of the 2021 eoyt where we got smacked by ireland and france and had to sack multiple assistant coaches.
Also worth remembering this was all with multiple AB greats still in the team and a 10 who was a much better player than 2025 BB.
2025 was shit, but I would argue 2022 was rock bottom.
Disagree, 2022 schedule was harder.
2022 we played No1 ranked peak Farrell-era Ireland 3 times for June series compared to playing France C x3 in 2025.
Wallabies' overall player profile featured a lot more experience in 2022 (before Eddie blew everything up...) than 2024-25, they were slightly better than 2024-25 - remember Wobs beat South Africa 25-17 in Adelaide in 2022 RC.
Under Foster in 2022, we beat South Africa 36-22 in one of the most comprehensive performances in years against a top 3 ranked nation.
Also note that if France had brought their A team, we probably would've been looking at 4 or 5 losses in 2025 instead of 3...
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2022 was a truly shitty year - particularly in the first half of the season - but post Ellis Park at least the trend was definitely upwards and the team was at least united..
This year? Worse for me - no upward trend, reports of player/coach trust issues from multiple sources- and no one seems to know who the real head coach actually is.
Let's hope the review sorts at least some of the mess out - otherwise things will get really messy i '26/7.
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As examples of teams that were not as good as 2025:
1991
Lost in Sydney
6-3 abomination win in Akl
Awful scrape through wins v Italy, USA, Canada in RWC
Loss in SF
Awful, Awful year1994
Loss to Frogs 2-0
Draw with Bokke
Gregan/Wilson1999
Awful QF v Scotties
Loss in SF
Loss in 3v4I think the current is better than all of those.
But I think we have the players to be better than we currently are.
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I'd say the early 2020's are consistently worse than the early 1970's.
There were not as many games played back in the 70's; so I can actually remember them all.
In the amateur days form was much more up and down, than it is now.
If you get on a run now (winning or losing) it seems to stick with a team more.There are a lot of corollaries between then and now; the 20's coming after the AB power decade of the 10's; and the 70's coming after the equally AB power decade of the 60's.
1970
Some people knock the 70 team a bit, mainly I think simply because they lost; but at the time this was considered the best AB team ever to tour SA. Nobody considered it a shit team, not like we think of the current one. In 70 we thought we were guna win; in 26 we think we are guna get smashed. Totally opposite mind set.1971
You could definitely see we were on the slide.
Lost the first test, which surprised everyone; but then came back in the 2nd test and absolutely smashed them.
So everyone is thinking all good, back to normal; and then came the 3rd test.
This was a bad loss (bit like SA at Wellington this year), and it became a bit of a life lesson for me. The ABs are not always going to be shit hot.
Played good in the 4th test, but the Brits managed to scramble the draw which gave them the series.
First AB series loss to the Lions, which shook the confidence a bit, especially after blitzing it all thru the 60s.1972
3 zipped the Aussies. The Aussies were very very bad. We didn't have to do anything special to beat them.
Then came 72-73 euro tour. A lot of people slag this team off too. But I thought they were ok. The Brits were actually quite good during the 70s, but we nearly did a grand slam, the Irish managing to snatch a draw right at the end of the final game, to stop us.
People still rave about the next big game, v the Barbarians, but to me the ABs were not taking this game serious at all, and just went out and threw the ball around. It was a great game to watch, and the Baabaas snagged the win.
The final game v France is a good example of what a say about the amateur era. This was right at the end of a very long tour, and I think the players just wanted to go home. We lost and I dont read anything particular into this game.1973
73 was one fucked up year.
Bok tour cancelled.
One test match, beaten by the poms. The poms had been beaten by virtually all PUs in the lead up.
The loss was stunning. Everyone thought this was guna be a walkover.
I think I recall Bob Lendrum had a shocker. Which was a bit unfortunate, because I thought he was quite a good player, never played for NZ again.1974
This was actually a good year.
For everyone who thinks the ABs were shit in the early 70s, this year does not fit that narrative.
Should have 3 zipped the Aussies in Aus, but one draw. The AB players apparently said some of the very very bad words to the Aussie ref (yes, home town refs in those days).
Then came the euro tour.
I was very apprehensive about this short tour. A bit like the coming tour to SA.
The Brits had just completed an unbeaten tour of SA and they were so fucking full of it.
Had Ireland Wales and the Baabaas (pretty much the 74 Lions team), in 8 days.
It was like the Brits were guna do a tag team on us.
But we very nearly did the trifecta.
Joey Karam had a bit of a shocker in the last game. I think he'd taken a bit of battering in the first two games, and made the mistake which let the Barbarians (Lions I mean) in to snatch a draw.1975
One test v Scotland in the water. Easy.1976
Regulation win v Ireland.
Then to SA. This was an ok team too I thought. Although not in the class of the 70 team.
This series should have been in NZ, but wasn't for political reasons. If it had been I think we would have won 3-1 instead of losing 3-1.So all in all, the early 70s was a bit of a downer, compared to the 60s, but not consistently down. There was some up as well. At the start of every game I was confident we were guna win, and it was a bit of a shock when ever we didn't.
Not like now. I thought our chances of beating the likes of England last year were very slim, and was not surprised at all when we didn't. -
@restofit said in All Blacks 2026:
@pukunui said in All Blacks 2026:
@ShaquilleOatmeal
It seems people have forgotten just how bad 2022 was.- First home/series loss to Ireland
- First loss to Argentina (at home)
- Well beaten by Boks in the first game
- Saved by the ref calling time wasting against the Wallabies with time almost up.
- Close calls against Japan and Scotland
- Escaping with a draw v England
All of this coming off the back of the 2021 eoyt where we got smacked by ireland and france and had to sack multiple assistant coaches.
Also worth remembering this was all with multiple AB greats still in the team and a 10 who was a much better player than 2025 BB.
2025 was shit, but I would argue 2022 was rock bottom.
Disagree, 2022 schedule was harder.
2022 we played No1 ranked peak Farrell-era Ireland 3 times for June series compared to playing France C x3 in 2025.
Wallabies' overall player profile featured a lot more experience in 2022 (before Eddie blew everything up...) than 2024-25, they were slightly better than 2024-25 - remember Wobs beat South Africa 25-17 in Adelaide in 2022 RC.
Under Foster in 2022, we beat South Africa 36-22 in one of the most comprehensive performances in years against a top 3 ranked nation.
Also note that if France had brought their A team, we probably would've been looking at 4 or 5 losses in 2025 instead of 3...
Im not convinced it was a significantly easier schedule . England are a better side now than 2022. Boks are arguably better now too with their expanded game. Sure, Ireland were probably better than the France team that toured here in 2025.
Either way, a marginally harder list of fixtures is a pretty lame excuse for some all time record ending loses.
Especially with a vastly more experienced team with guys like Whitelock, Cane, Retallick, Aaron Smith, Dane Coles. Plus Mounga, Akira Ioane, Papalii and Sotutu, who most people would regard as upgrades on todays squad.Will be interesting to see where it all goes from here. Those guys above were able to drag themselves to within a kick of the RWC trophy.
Not sure this current team has it in them.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:
@pukunui said in All Blacks 2026:
@ShaquilleOatmeal
It seems people have forgotten just how bad 2022 was.- First home/series loss to Ireland
- First loss to Argentina (at home)
- Well beaten by Boks in the first game
- Saved by the ref calling time wasting against the Wallabies with time almost up.
- Close calls against Japan and Scotland
- Escaping with a draw v England
All of this coming off the back of the 2021 eoyt where we got smacked by ireland and france and had to sack multiple assistant coaches.
Also worth remembering this was all with multiple AB greats still in the team and a 10 who was a much better player than 2025 BB.
2025 was shit, but I would argue 2022 was rock bottom.
It was ordinary, saved by the Boks win in Joburg, but I think we showed signs that there was light at the end of the tunnel for 2023. There were a few hairy moments after thw Joburg test, but I felt at the time that it was to be expected with the coaching team changing mid season and we did also hammer Argentina and the Wallabies in the return fixtures that year. I felt like we were a more settled XV at the end of 2022 and the coaches knew what their best lineup was going into the 2023 RWC.
Can't say I feel the same optimism going into 2026 and they still seem unsure on their best XV.
Yeah that is the key. As a pure looks at results of a calendar year relative to the strength of them team I would say 2022 was worse than 2025. But there were still some pretty legendary players there to rework into a functional team.
They almost made it even if there were some pretty shit performances and unwanted firsts in 2023 also. Eg. Getting belted by the Boks pre world cup and losing our first ever pool game.But if you look at it from a “state of the team” perspective we are probably in a worse place than 2022 given the leaders and game drivers of our team seem to be past it and/or just not good enough at leading/driving a game.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2026:
As examples of teams that were not as good as 2025:
1991
Lost in Sydney
6-3 abomination win in Akl
Awful scrape through wins v Italy, USA, Canada in RWC
Loss in SF
Awful, Awful year1994
Loss to Frogs 2-0
Draw with Bokke
Gregan/Wilson1999
Awful QF v Scotties
Loss in SF
Loss in 3v4I think the current is better than all of those.
But I think we have the players to be better than we currently are.
For me personally, I think only 1999 compares with this year due to the similar capitulation (aided by stupidity of selection) but the other two were just years when teams got the better of us.
1991 we were the clear second best team in the world even if we muddled our way through. Despite the rankings I don't think we're the second best team this year.
1994 we won a series over the Boks and lost to a classy France in the second test by the try from the end of the world. The Wallabies were still a class act in 1994, in hindsight that loss isn't as earth shattering as it felt that Wednesday night.
Even when we were losing those matches, and I was less mature at dealing with losses then, I was never as dismayed as I was in the Boks and England losses this year.
On 2022, I don't think anyone is trying to defend our performances that year so not sure if it's a great whataboutry.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:
Perhaps ask A1 on winning number of games, which after all is the point of tests, if that's how you get your rugby knowledge mate.
I know it's old fashioned , but genuinely watching rugby has always been the way I have only ever really judged teams. And not just losses, but wins too, I have seen wins (including this year) that have looked pretty average , and losses that have been pretty good.Though I can understand that's how many get a lot their rugby (or a lot of sport) info, just ask A1, or/and watch highlights (then look at shortened stats) perhaps takes less time etc.
I got AI to do a bit of maths because it was quicker than doing it myself. Nothing to do with my rugby knowledge. I’m just trying to find out how years I wasn’t around for were as bad or worse than in recent times. Doesn’t sound like they are unless you go by the simplistic wins/losses stat which can be found very easily. And as you point out, it’s the nature of the performances that matter. Those in 2025, with senior players flat out giving up, lack of basic skills, players avoiding their core duties, are the worst I’ve seen by a long way. I’m not hearing examples from the past that compare to what we saw last year.
Fair enough mate, but take my word for it, not suggesting you wrong to do it mate, just I perhaps don't understand A1 , and haven't seen where it help me find how teams perform. I thought As I said, in my opinion some of games I attended in 80s or 90s the players were pretty average, etc.
I not sure how much you watched in 90s where the likes of Fitzy were getting roasted at first for not doing his proper core hooker roles because he was first hooker to really play game wide etc. I thought in 1998 we had a team, that were in the main fairly below average and didn't win one test, but still could see shoots of decent/good players. As I say Jonah was absolutely roasted by a lot for not have core skills of a winger etc, I couldn't beleive the number of people (members of my family too) who said he was hopeless.. The one thing I will bet, when we watch games , we often do it with a prejudice of how we think certain players should do, and perhaps close our minds to what's happening.
But to me rugby isn't about maths etc, but I haven't seen all the walking around, players giving up (though Wellington was a switch off etc) and having a lack of core skills etc. Because if they are there are certainly a lot of piss poor teams in the world that the team have beaten. I don't see this huge lac of skills compared to other teams, or AB teams .
Anyway, I won't change your mind, and you won't change mine. And even know there not a lot of rugby to watch . I will leave it at that. I will carry on enjoying watching and supporting the team etc, and you perhaps will continue to get frustrated with them.
Lol mate it could be I taking easy way out, too old to worry about things I have seen before. -
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2026:
Even when we were losing those matches, and I was less mature at dealing with losses then, I was never as dismayed as I was in the Boks and England losses this year.
This. It isn't the losses as much as the nature of the losses - almost as if the team collectively shrugs shoulders and gives up. Losing to a better side is understandable if painful, looking like a team that's given up is almost obscene.
Really hope we can concoct another turning point like Ellis Park in 2022 or, even better, - as we're digging into history - Carisbrook 1977.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2026:
@Dan54 Dude, can we please just clarify: You do know it's AI, I for Intelligence, not A1, huh? And typing 1 instead of I is just convenience? Right?
Lol mate, just a stupid thing mate and I do sometimes, as I hate the idea that artificial intelligence, and even calling it such , where is our own intelligence? lol
Age thing I know, I a grumpy old bastard, I dislike we all to lazy to think for ourselves, we rely on machines/ bits of wire to more and more include thinking and remembering . I do it myself too, not pointing fingers at anyone else. Hell we even converse on the f***en things instead of leaning on table and discussing games after or before going to games.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:
I know it's old fashioned , but genuinely watching rugby has always been the way I have only ever really judged teams. And not just losses, but wins too, I have seen wins (including this year) that have looked pretty average , and losses that have been pretty good.
How does this align with your comments earlier in the thread about the AB season being a pass mark because it was 10 wins 3 losses?
It's not so much the wins and losses in 2025 that concern me - it's the nature of the performances and taking into account who we played and when.
From my angle we mostly got by on individual performances in the wins
- Squeaked by France B in the first 3 tests - Jordie saving the bacon off the bench in test 3 comes to mind
- Argie test 1 had a nice closeout from the forwards with a number of lineout drives
- Bok test 1 was good desperation effort given the team was seriously undermanned
- Wallaby test 1 was a masterclass by Roigard at Eden Park whereas Wallaby test 2 in Perth showed real promise of Tupaea at 13 (and then he was barely sighted there again this year). Noting given the Wallaby lack of depth we caught them at a good time given they had no Tom Wright, Skelton for only 1 test, issues at 10 etc.
- Ireland test was looking dicey until DMac came on
- Scotland test started strong then nearly choked it away until DMac saved the day
- Wales are so bad currently it's hard to really get a read - conceding a lot of points wasn't great.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2026:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:
I know it's old fashioned , but genuinely watching rugby has always been the way I have only ever really judged teams. And not just losses, but wins too, I have seen wins (including this year) that have looked pretty average , and losses that have been pretty good.
How does this align with your comments earlier in the thread about the AB season being a pass mark because it was 10 wins 3 losses?
Not saying I right, but how does it align with thinking 10 out of 13 was a pass mark? It what I had thought would be ok (ok only) before season started . We like it or not just don't have the players to do it in NZ. I never realistically thought we would win 13, I hoped for 12/13, never thought we were good enough, our opposition poor enough.
I find having realistic expectations help me enjoy the game a lot more.Your comments on games above while good as for you just show how different some of us follow the game. That's fine mate, it's how we are.
I will continue to think it was a pass mark as a season, not great but ok.
I look how well we look with youngish players in forwards, lock we look to have some beauties in Holland, Vai'i showing he is good as we hoped, Lord coming on nicely. Loosies we got a couple of good young uns in Lakai and Sititi (still waiting to make up mind on Parker). Props we pretty well off, with a bloody good few years in them as yet.
In backs Roigard continues his climb as a top echelon 9, we could do with a good new 10, 12 we in good with JB, TT and Tupaea (though will be keen to see him a bit more at 13). 13 we not overly flush, and back 3 we not too bad.
That to me is a pass mark for a season, and a good place to start.
For 2026, I hope to see a 10 come through (looking at you Jacomb, Kemara, Rehana), a convincing back up to Roigard (even just Hotham getting through uninjured) someone crack the spot at 13, and think we should be ok.
It's got the makings of hardest season since the game went pro, we meet all the top teams in a comp, and a perhaps best ever Bok team in 4 tests away.
And I looking forward to it. I want an unbeaten season, but in no way expect it.
Ok we stuck with coaching group as it would be stupidity to dump them, wasn't a fan of how the appointment was made etc. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2026:
even better, - as we're digging into history - Carisbrook 1977.
Yeah, I thought Jack Gleeson brought in, what we all hope for this year, a "change of direction."
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