Scott Robertson
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@zedsdeadbaby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Great backgrounder - I think it portrays Razor as sadly out of his depth - and perhaps at the end he realised it too.
I'd be interested to hear from those in the game how quickly / how late they started hearing rumours of things not going well.
On him being out of his depth, there were a few posters here who questioned why Razor wouldn't come into the AB environment (or another) as a an assistant. The story was 'well, he's only a HC now' but it seems equally clear that international rugby is not the same world as NZ's domestic league. Who'd have thought? (Apart from Duluth, Kirwan and a few others here).
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@gt12 Well maybe it's because being a top level assistant requires someone who is comfortable in their technical 'hands on' coaching ability, and Razor is not?
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@gt12 Well maybe it's because being a top level assistant requires someone who is comfortable in their technical 'hands on' coaching ability, and Razor is not?
@restofit said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@gt12 Well maybe it's because being a top level assistant requires someone who is comfortable in their technical 'hands on' coaching ability, and Razor is not?
It's never been clear to me how you can be an effective HC at the international level if you can't also be an effective assistant coach at that level.
If you don't have sufficient coaching ability to play at that level, at least for one specific aspect of the role, I can't see how you should be able to manage a team of people doing those jobs.
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@zedsdeadbaby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Great backgrounder - I think it portrays Razor as sadly out of his depth - and perhaps at the end he realised it too.
I'd be interested to hear from those in the game how quickly / how late they started hearing rumours of things not going well.
On him being out of his depth, there were a few posters here who questioned why Razor wouldn't come into the AB environment (or another) as a an assistant. The story was 'well, he's only a HC now' but it seems equally clear that international rugby is not the same world as NZ's domestic league. Who'd have thought? (Apart from Duluth, Kirwan and a few others here).
@gt12 said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
international rugby is not the same world as NZ's domestic league. Who'd have thought? (Apart from Duluth, Kirwan and a few others here).
Also, @Victor-Meldrew (and me) were pointing out that international campaigns were quite different to Super - that skills may not transfer easily. I do not think anyone had Razor getting fired on their bingo card though,
Also interesting that from the article Kirk didn't articulate any chance to improve, but came in to a 'bring legal representation'. There were very clearly people talking from Razor's camp (sounded too articulate for Marshall ...
) so take with a pinch of salt. May have had messages or discussions that he missed the importance of the 'you need to change things' message. Anyhoo, internet speculation as we don't know the facts. -
@restofit said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@gt12 Well maybe it's because being a top level assistant requires someone who is comfortable in their technical 'hands on' coaching ability, and Razor is not?
It's never been clear to me how you can be an effective HC at the international level if you can't also be an effective assistant coach at that level.
If you don't have sufficient coaching ability to play at that level, at least for one specific aspect of the role, I can't see how you should be able to manage a team of people doing those jobs.
@gt12 said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@restofit said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@gt12 Well maybe it's because being a top level assistant requires someone who is comfortable in their technical 'hands on' coaching ability, and Razor is not?
It's never been clear to me how you can be an effective HC at the international level if you can't also be an effective assistant coach at that level.
If you don't have sufficient coaching ability to play at that level, at least for one specific aspect of the role, I can't see how you should be able to manage a team of people doing those jobs.
Amen, you can't. Which is why some of the comments earlier about the HC being the best man-manager while the best actual coaches should be assistants made me feel a little sick.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@restofit said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@gt12 Well maybe it's because being a top level assistant requires someone who is comfortable in their technical 'hands on' coaching ability, and Razor is not?
It's never been clear to me how you can be an effective HC at the international level if you can't also be an effective assistant coach at that level.
If you don't have sufficient coaching ability to play at that level, at least for one specific aspect of the role, I can't see how you should be able to manage a team of people doing those jobs.
Amen, you can't. Which is why some of the comments earlier about the HC being the best man-manager while the best actual coaches should be assistants made me feel a little sick.
@reprobate I don't think anyone was suggesting the the head coach shouldn't have good technical ability, rather than saying JUST being a good technical coach isn't the only thing.
Obviously have to be a bloody good overall coach, with the ability of tying in the technical coaches/assistant below with players etc. I am not sure Hansen or Henry were great technical coaches as such but good at using recourses they had. I think the likes of Wayne Smith had the strength of being a bloody good coach without being a great head coach. -
Reading through that long piece in the Herald by Shayne Currie the insider quote that jumped out at me was the one saying that while Robertson had many qualities, “man management and communication” were not among them.
This is a bit like saying of an airline pilot, he was a lovely bloke and told some great stories - but being colour blind and an alcoholic really counted against him.
Others in the story are quoted as saying of Robertson that he appeared to cave under pressure, retreated into his shell and left all the hard talking to the assistants.
That’s what it looked like from the outside to me as well. I know there’s a school out there among the Crusaders rusted-ons that this was all a fiendish plot by Ardie Savea, but Captain Kirk and co would not have turned the stun guns to kill if the problem was just a clash of personalities.
The early departure of MacDonald, the largely unexplained resignation of Jason Holland and Robertson’s own appallingly incomprehensible public utterances tell you he was melting under the pressure, perhaps understandable given the hype he had to live up to. In short, he just wasn’t up to the job.
The manner and timing of his departure is clearly not ideal, but does anyone really think things were salvageable given the clearly toxic internal culture and resulting pissweak on-field performances?
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Reading through that long piece in the Herald by Shayne Currie the insider quote that jumped out at me was the one saying that while Robertson had many qualities, “man management and communication” were not among them.
This is a bit like saying of an airline pilot, he was a lovely bloke and told some great stories - but being colour blind and an alcoholic really counted against him.
Others in the story are quoted as saying of Robertson that he appeared to cave under pressure, retreated into his shell and left all the hard talking to the assistants.
That’s what it looked like from the outside to me as well. I know there’s a school out there among the Crusaders rusted-ons that this was all a fiendish plot by Ardie Savea, but Captain Kirk and co would not have turned the stun guns to kill if the problem was just a clash of personalities.
The early departure of MacDonald, the largely unexplained resignation of Jason Holland and Robertson’s own appallingly incomprehensible public utterances tell you he was melting under the pressure, perhaps understandable given the hype he had to live up to. In short, he just wasn’t up to the job.
The manner and timing of his departure is clearly not ideal, but does anyone really think things were salvageable given the clearly toxic internal culture and resulting pissweak on-field performances?
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Reading through that long piece in the Herald by Shayne Currie the insider quote that jumped out at me was the one saying that while Robertson had many qualities, “man management and communication” were not among them.
This is a bit like saying of an airline pilot, he was a lovely bloke and told some great stories - but being colour blind and an alcoholic really counted against him.
Others in the story are quoted as saying of Robertson that he appeared to cave under pressure, retreated into his shell and left all the hard talking to the assistants.
That’s what it looked like from the outside to me as well. I know there’s a school out there among the Crusaders rusted-ons that this was all a fiendish plot by Ardie Savea, but Captain Kirk and co would not have turned the stun guns to kill if the problem was just a clash of personalities.
The early departure of MacDonald, the largely unexplained resignation of Jason Holland and Robertson’s own appallingly incomprehensible public utterances tell you he was melting under the pressure, perhaps understandable given the hype he had to live up to. In short, he just wasn’t up to the job.
The manner and timing of his departure is clearly not ideal, but does anyone really think things were salvageable given the clearly toxic internal culture and resulting pissweak on-field performances?
I don't think it was salvageable, I think he needed to go. Whether that is entirely due to his own failings, or whether it may have been salvageable if not for the actions / lack of support of some others is hard to know.
Some of the quotes around Savea aren't a great look either.
Regardless, good that it is over and I expect whoever gets the gig to take a hard line on discipline and team unity for a bit. -
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Reading through that long piece in the Herald by Shayne Currie the insider quote that jumped out at me was the one saying that while Robertson had many qualities, “man management and communication” were not among them.
This is a bit like saying of an airline pilot, he was a lovely bloke and told some great stories - but being colour blind and an alcoholic really counted against him.
Others in the story are quoted as saying of Robertson that he appeared to cave under pressure, retreated into his shell and left all the hard talking to the assistants.
That’s what it looked like from the outside to me as well. I know there’s a school out there among the Crusaders rusted-ons that this was all a fiendish plot by Ardie Savea, but Captain Kirk and co would not have turned the stun guns to kill if the problem was just a clash of personalities.
The early departure of MacDonald, the largely unexplained resignation of Jason Holland and Robertson’s own appallingly incomprehensible public utterances tell you he was melting under the pressure, perhaps understandable given the hype he had to live up to. In short, he just wasn’t up to the job.
The manner and timing of his departure is clearly not ideal, but does anyone really think things were salvageable given the clearly toxic internal culture and resulting pissweak on-field performances?
I don't think it was salvageable, I think he needed to go. Whether that is entirely due to his own failings, or whether it may have been salvageable if not for the actions / lack of support of some others is hard to know.
Some of the quotes around Savea aren't a great look either.
Regardless, good that it is over and I expect whoever gets the gig to take a hard line on discipline and team unity for a bit.@reprobate given what you read of Ardie under Foster it makes you wonder if under Razor he saw the mess and tried to take things on himself in terms of coaching/mentoring younger players?
I also think under the right coach and game.plan, Ardie still has alot to offer, but last year there was such a huge lack of direction or accountability for pretty much anything, although you do wonder where self respect of your own standards fits in when you look at the 2nd half v the Boks.
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@reprobate given what you read of Ardie under Foster it makes you wonder if under Razor he saw the mess and tried to take things on himself in terms of coaching/mentoring younger players?
I also think under the right coach and game.plan, Ardie still has alot to offer, but last year there was such a huge lack of direction or accountability for pretty much anything, although you do wonder where self respect of your own standards fits in when you look at the 2nd half v the Boks.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate given what you read of Ardie under Foster it makes you wonder if under Razor he saw the mess and tried to take things on himself in terms of coaching/mentoring younger players?
I also think under the right coach and game.plan, Ardie still has alot to offer, but last year there was such a huge lack of direction or accountability for pretty much anything, although you do wonder where self respect of your own standards fits in when you look at the 2nd half v the Boks.
Quite possibly eh, but going about that the wrong way can be undermining too.
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The more stories that come out about Scott Robertson, the more baffling it is he made it so far and had so much lower-level success. It feels increasingly like he benefited from a perfect storm of advantages - structures, players, timing - rather than coaching ability.
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The more stories that come out about Scott Robertson, the more baffling it is he made it so far and had so much lower-level success. It feels increasingly like he benefited from a perfect storm of advantages - structures, players, timing - rather than coaching ability.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
The more stories that come out about Scott Robertson, the more baffling it is he made it so far and had so much lower-level success. It feels increasingly like he benefited from a perfect storm of advantages - structures, players, timing - rather than coaching ability.
Crusaders structure certainly helped. But there's no question the players loved playing for him and responded to the themed campaigns.
I think he changed too much when he went up a level and lost the support that got Penney a Super title last year. And then the wheels fell off
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
The more stories that come out about Scott Robertson, the more baffling it is he made it so far and had so much lower-level success. It feels increasingly like he benefited from a perfect storm of advantages - structures, players, timing - rather than coaching ability.
Crusaders structure certainly helped. But there's no question the players loved playing for him and responded to the themed campaigns.
I think he changed too much when he went up a level and lost the support that got Penney a Super title last year. And then the wheels fell off
@nzzp said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
The more stories that come out about Scott Robertson, the more baffling it is he made it so far and had so much lower-level success. It feels increasingly like he benefited from a perfect storm of advantages - structures, players, timing - rather than coaching ability.
Crusaders structure certainly helped. But there's no question the players loved playing for him and responded to the themed campaigns.
I think he changed too much when he went up a level and lost the support that got Penney a Super title last year. And then the wheels fell off
Yeah, if you take that article as gospel it seems very much that he changed what he had been doing, and you'd have to assume that's due to the pressure he felt. There's a few indicators of that I think: "I'm the boss, go talk to the middle manager" stuff , he said himself he had been too risk averse in 2024 - but then proceeded to be even more so in 2025
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate given what you read of Ardie under Foster it makes you wonder if under Razor he saw the mess and tried to take things on himself in terms of coaching/mentoring younger players?
I also think under the right coach and game.plan, Ardie still has alot to offer, but last year there was such a huge lack of direction or accountability for pretty much anything, although you do wonder where self respect of your own standards fits in when you look at the 2nd half v the Boks.
Quite possibly eh, but going about that the wrong way can be undermining too.
@reprobate yeah we will probably never know, maybe he (and others) tried to speak to Razor about it but was ignored or brushed off?
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@reprobate yeah we will probably never know, maybe he (and others) tried to speak to Razor about it but was ignored or brushed off?
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate yeah we will probably never know, maybe he (and others) tried to speak to Razor about it but was ignored or brushed off?
One of the biggest things I learned is unless there's a shared view on the world you can't make changes. There's often discussion about whether there's even a problem, let alone how to start moving towards a solution. I have been told by people sometimes 'this is not a problem ', which works until reality intrudes
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Over-hyped and over-rated fraud. He must have known that he wasn't a very good coach and would be exposed hideously at the top level. The Emperor had no clothes. What an idiot!
No sympathy at all over his firing. Good riddance!
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@Tim said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
One source told the Herald that as time went on, they believed that some All Blacks team management “just lost all faith”. Those in the environment reflected on how they were under the impression that Razor was “the guru”, but actually didn’t see much or any of his coaching ability on display.
As an example, the source said, Robertson would play videos to the team to “gee everyone up” at meetings.
“He’d play the clip, and at the end of the clip, he’d go, ‘Everyone good? Cool, let’s go.’ You were not getting any inspirational speeches, you were not seeing any rugby IQ, any innovation.
Lol, wondering what videos he played to the team now.
@African-Monkey said in Scott Robertson:
Lol, wondering what videos he played to the team now.
A Dog's Show.
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So, depending on the coach, international rules, and NZR, is there a chance we could ever see Sotutu in black again?
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So, depending on the coach, international rules, and NZR, is there a chance we could ever see Sotutu in black again?
@nostrildamus said in Scott Robertson:
So, depending on the coach, international rules, and NZR, is there a chance we could ever see Sotutu in black again?
No, he's off to Newcastle.
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@nostrildamus said in Scott Robertson:
So, depending on the coach, international rules, and NZR, is there a chance we could ever see Sotutu in black again?
No, he's off to Newcastle.
@African-Monkey said in Scott Robertson:
@nostrildamus said in Scott Robertson:
So, depending on the coach, international rules, and NZR, is there a chance we could ever see Sotutu in black again?
No, he's off to Newcastle.
Yes I know, I mean in a few years. Seems to be sayonara though. He's only 27.
