Scott Robertson
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@taniwharugby I've seen shit performances,thru the years - individually and by the team as a whole.
But I've never seen an AB team simply give up like they did against SA in Wellington last year. Absolute low point.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@taniwharugby I've seen shit performances,thru the years - individually and by the team as a whole.
But I've never seen an AB team simply give up like they did against SA in Wellington last year. Absolute low point.
I agree, and funnily enough I saw 2 test teams give up this year, other one was the Boks against Wallabies at Ellis Park, just have no idea why either happened .
I agree not a high point of year, and yet I thought the English test worried me more , we looked lost whole test. -
One source told the Herald that as time went on, they believed that some All Blacks team management âjust lost all faithâ. Those in the environment reflected on how they were under the impression that Razor was âthe guruâ, but actually didnât see much or any of his coaching ability on display.
As an example, the source said, Robertson would play videos to the team to âgee everyone upâ at meetings.
âHeâd play the clip, and at the end of the clip, heâd go, âEveryone good? Cool, letâs go.â You were not getting any inspirational speeches, you were not seeing any rugby IQ, any innovation.
@Tim said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
One source told the Herald that as time went on, they believed that some All Blacks team management âjust lost all faithâ. Those in the environment reflected on how they were under the impression that Razor was âthe guruâ, but actually didnât see much or any of his coaching ability on display.
As an example, the source said, Robertson would play videos to the team to âgee everyone upâ at meetings.
âHeâd play the clip, and at the end of the clip, heâd go, âEveryone good? Cool, letâs go.â You were not getting any inspirational speeches, you were not seeing any rugby IQ, any innovation.
While taking it all with a few grains of salt , because it from the Herald, certainly shows there earlier stories blaming Ardie and a few players for a somehow bringing him down as crap doesn't it? They seem to have a different story for each month! Mind you ths does line up with what Kirk said, he specifically daid they had talked to management too, a fact conveniently overlooked by a few.
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The more we hear the more the parting of ways was the correct call, even if it leaves us in this mess.
It will be tough for a new coach coming in now, but they do hold a good.hand for negotiating a contract, I hope though that both they and NZR can see the bigger picture and include good kpis and review process with options to extend or part ways.
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Great backgrounder - I think it portrays Razor as sadly out of his depth - and perhaps at the end he realised it too.
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Great backgrounder - I think it portrays Razor as sadly out of his depth - and perhaps at the end he realised it too.
@zedsdeadbaby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Great backgrounder - I think it portrays Razor as sadly out of his depth - and perhaps at the end he realised it too.
These reports might cause some test nations to pause at the thought of signing Razor on as coach
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Great backgrounder - I think it portrays Razor as sadly out of his depth - and perhaps at the end he realised it too.
@zedsdeadbaby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Great backgrounder - I think it portrays Razor as sadly out of his depth - and perhaps at the end he realised it too.
I'd be interested to hear from those in the game how quickly / how late they started hearing rumours of things not going well.
On him being out of his depth, there were a few posters here who questioned why Razor wouldn't come into the AB environment (or another) as a an assistant. The story was 'well, he's only a HC now' but it seems equally clear that international rugby is not the same world as NZ's domestic league. Who'd have thought? (Apart from Duluth, Kirwan and a few others here).
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@zedsdeadbaby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Great backgrounder - I think it portrays Razor as sadly out of his depth - and perhaps at the end he realised it too.
I'd be interested to hear from those in the game how quickly / how late they started hearing rumours of things not going well.
On him being out of his depth, there were a few posters here who questioned why Razor wouldn't come into the AB environment (or another) as a an assistant. The story was 'well, he's only a HC now' but it seems equally clear that international rugby is not the same world as NZ's domestic league. Who'd have thought? (Apart from Duluth, Kirwan and a few others here).
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@gt12 Well maybe it's because being a top level assistant requires someone who is comfortable in their technical 'hands on' coaching ability, and Razor is not?
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@gt12 Well maybe it's because being a top level assistant requires someone who is comfortable in their technical 'hands on' coaching ability, and Razor is not?
@restofit said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@gt12 Well maybe it's because being a top level assistant requires someone who is comfortable in their technical 'hands on' coaching ability, and Razor is not?
It's never been clear to me how you can be an effective HC at the international level if you can't also be an effective assistant coach at that level.
If you don't have sufficient coaching ability to play at that level, at least for one specific aspect of the role, I can't see how you should be able to manage a team of people doing those jobs.
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@zedsdeadbaby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Great backgrounder - I think it portrays Razor as sadly out of his depth - and perhaps at the end he realised it too.
I'd be interested to hear from those in the game how quickly / how late they started hearing rumours of things not going well.
On him being out of his depth, there were a few posters here who questioned why Razor wouldn't come into the AB environment (or another) as a an assistant. The story was 'well, he's only a HC now' but it seems equally clear that international rugby is not the same world as NZ's domestic league. Who'd have thought? (Apart from Duluth, Kirwan and a few others here).
@gt12 said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
international rugby is not the same world as NZ's domestic league. Who'd have thought? (Apart from Duluth, Kirwan and a few others here).
Also, @Victor-Meldrew (and me) were pointing out that international campaigns were quite different to Super - that skills may not transfer easily. I do not think anyone had Razor getting fired on their bingo card though,
Also interesting that from the article Kirk didn't articulate any chance to improve, but came in to a 'bring legal representation'. There were very clearly people talking from Razor's camp (sounded too articulate for Marshall ...
) so take with a pinch of salt. May have had messages or discussions that he missed the importance of the 'you need to change things' message. Anyhoo, internet speculation as we don't know the facts. -
@restofit said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@gt12 Well maybe it's because being a top level assistant requires someone who is comfortable in their technical 'hands on' coaching ability, and Razor is not?
It's never been clear to me how you can be an effective HC at the international level if you can't also be an effective assistant coach at that level.
If you don't have sufficient coaching ability to play at that level, at least for one specific aspect of the role, I can't see how you should be able to manage a team of people doing those jobs.
@gt12 said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@restofit said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@gt12 Well maybe it's because being a top level assistant requires someone who is comfortable in their technical 'hands on' coaching ability, and Razor is not?
It's never been clear to me how you can be an effective HC at the international level if you can't also be an effective assistant coach at that level.
If you don't have sufficient coaching ability to play at that level, at least for one specific aspect of the role, I can't see how you should be able to manage a team of people doing those jobs.
Amen, you can't. Which is why some of the comments earlier about the HC being the best man-manager while the best actual coaches should be assistants made me feel a little sick.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@restofit said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@gt12 Well maybe it's because being a top level assistant requires someone who is comfortable in their technical 'hands on' coaching ability, and Razor is not?
It's never been clear to me how you can be an effective HC at the international level if you can't also be an effective assistant coach at that level.
If you don't have sufficient coaching ability to play at that level, at least for one specific aspect of the role, I can't see how you should be able to manage a team of people doing those jobs.
Amen, you can't. Which is why some of the comments earlier about the HC being the best man-manager while the best actual coaches should be assistants made me feel a little sick.
@reprobate I don't think anyone was suggesting the the head coach shouldn't have good technical ability, rather than saying JUST being a good technical coach isn't the only thing.
Obviously have to be a bloody good overall coach, with the ability of tying in the technical coaches/assistant below with players etc. I am not sure Hansen or Henry were great technical coaches as such but good at using recourses they had. I think the likes of Wayne Smith had the strength of being a bloody good coach without being a great head coach. -
Reading through that long piece in the Herald by Shayne Currie the insider quote that jumped out at me was the one saying that while Robertson had many qualities, âman management and communicationâ were not among them.
This is a bit like saying of an airline pilot, he was a lovely bloke and told some great stories - but being colour blind and an alcoholic really counted against him.
Others in the story are quoted as saying of Robertson that he appeared to cave under pressure, retreated into his shell and left all the hard talking to the assistants.
Thatâs what it looked like from the outside to me as well. I know thereâs a school out there among the Crusaders rusted-ons that this was all a fiendish plot by Ardie Savea, but Captain Kirk and co would not have turned the stun guns to kill if the problem was just a clash of personalities.
The early departure of MacDonald, the largely unexplained resignation of Jason Holland and Robertsonâs own appallingly incomprehensible public utterances tell you he was melting under the pressure, perhaps understandable given the hype he had to live up to. In short, he just wasnât up to the job.
The manner and timing of his departure is clearly not ideal, but does anyone really think things were salvageable given the clearly toxic internal culture and resulting pissweak on-field performances?
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Reading through that long piece in the Herald by Shayne Currie the insider quote that jumped out at me was the one saying that while Robertson had many qualities, âman management and communicationâ were not among them.
This is a bit like saying of an airline pilot, he was a lovely bloke and told some great stories - but being colour blind and an alcoholic really counted against him.
Others in the story are quoted as saying of Robertson that he appeared to cave under pressure, retreated into his shell and left all the hard talking to the assistants.
Thatâs what it looked like from the outside to me as well. I know thereâs a school out there among the Crusaders rusted-ons that this was all a fiendish plot by Ardie Savea, but Captain Kirk and co would not have turned the stun guns to kill if the problem was just a clash of personalities.
The early departure of MacDonald, the largely unexplained resignation of Jason Holland and Robertsonâs own appallingly incomprehensible public utterances tell you he was melting under the pressure, perhaps understandable given the hype he had to live up to. In short, he just wasnât up to the job.
The manner and timing of his departure is clearly not ideal, but does anyone really think things were salvageable given the clearly toxic internal culture and resulting pissweak on-field performances?
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Reading through that long piece in the Herald by Shayne Currie the insider quote that jumped out at me was the one saying that while Robertson had many qualities, âman management and communicationâ were not among them.
This is a bit like saying of an airline pilot, he was a lovely bloke and told some great stories - but being colour blind and an alcoholic really counted against him.
Others in the story are quoted as saying of Robertson that he appeared to cave under pressure, retreated into his shell and left all the hard talking to the assistants.
Thatâs what it looked like from the outside to me as well. I know thereâs a school out there among the Crusaders rusted-ons that this was all a fiendish plot by Ardie Savea, but Captain Kirk and co would not have turned the stun guns to kill if the problem was just a clash of personalities.
The early departure of MacDonald, the largely unexplained resignation of Jason Holland and Robertsonâs own appallingly incomprehensible public utterances tell you he was melting under the pressure, perhaps understandable given the hype he had to live up to. In short, he just wasnât up to the job.
The manner and timing of his departure is clearly not ideal, but does anyone really think things were salvageable given the clearly toxic internal culture and resulting pissweak on-field performances?
I don't think it was salvageable, I think he needed to go. Whether that is entirely due to his own failings, or whether it may have been salvageable if not for the actions / lack of support of some others is hard to know.
Some of the quotes around Savea aren't a great look either.
Regardless, good that it is over and I expect whoever gets the gig to take a hard line on discipline and team unity for a bit. -
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Reading through that long piece in the Herald by Shayne Currie the insider quote that jumped out at me was the one saying that while Robertson had many qualities, âman management and communicationâ were not among them.
This is a bit like saying of an airline pilot, he was a lovely bloke and told some great stories - but being colour blind and an alcoholic really counted against him.
Others in the story are quoted as saying of Robertson that he appeared to cave under pressure, retreated into his shell and left all the hard talking to the assistants.
Thatâs what it looked like from the outside to me as well. I know thereâs a school out there among the Crusaders rusted-ons that this was all a fiendish plot by Ardie Savea, but Captain Kirk and co would not have turned the stun guns to kill if the problem was just a clash of personalities.
The early departure of MacDonald, the largely unexplained resignation of Jason Holland and Robertsonâs own appallingly incomprehensible public utterances tell you he was melting under the pressure, perhaps understandable given the hype he had to live up to. In short, he just wasnât up to the job.
The manner and timing of his departure is clearly not ideal, but does anyone really think things were salvageable given the clearly toxic internal culture and resulting pissweak on-field performances?
I don't think it was salvageable, I think he needed to go. Whether that is entirely due to his own failings, or whether it may have been salvageable if not for the actions / lack of support of some others is hard to know.
Some of the quotes around Savea aren't a great look either.
Regardless, good that it is over and I expect whoever gets the gig to take a hard line on discipline and team unity for a bit.@reprobate given what you read of Ardie under Foster it makes you wonder if under Razor he saw the mess and tried to take things on himself in terms of coaching/mentoring younger players?
I also think under the right coach and game.plan, Ardie still has alot to offer, but last year there was such a huge lack of direction or accountability for pretty much anything, although you do wonder where self respect of your own standards fits in when you look at the 2nd half v the Boks.
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@reprobate given what you read of Ardie under Foster it makes you wonder if under Razor he saw the mess and tried to take things on himself in terms of coaching/mentoring younger players?
I also think under the right coach and game.plan, Ardie still has alot to offer, but last year there was such a huge lack of direction or accountability for pretty much anything, although you do wonder where self respect of your own standards fits in when you look at the 2nd half v the Boks.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate given what you read of Ardie under Foster it makes you wonder if under Razor he saw the mess and tried to take things on himself in terms of coaching/mentoring younger players?
I also think under the right coach and game.plan, Ardie still has alot to offer, but last year there was such a huge lack of direction or accountability for pretty much anything, although you do wonder where self respect of your own standards fits in when you look at the 2nd half v the Boks.
Quite possibly eh, but going about that the wrong way can be undermining too.
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The more stories that come out about Scott Robertson, the more baffling it is he made it so far and had so much lower-level success. It feels increasingly like he benefited from a perfect storm of advantages - structures, players, timing - rather than coaching ability.
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The more stories that come out about Scott Robertson, the more baffling it is he made it so far and had so much lower-level success. It feels increasingly like he benefited from a perfect storm of advantages - structures, players, timing - rather than coaching ability.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
The more stories that come out about Scott Robertson, the more baffling it is he made it so far and had so much lower-level success. It feels increasingly like he benefited from a perfect storm of advantages - structures, players, timing - rather than coaching ability.
Crusaders structure certainly helped. But there's no question the players loved playing for him and responded to the themed campaigns.
I think he changed too much when he went up a level and lost the support that got Penney a Super title last year. And then the wheels fell off
