All Blacks - New Coach Selection
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@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Moving on from BB at 10.
Would have been great to have had more AB XV games (e.g. against the other RC teams) to help develop new 10s etc.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble If I were someone like Cotter, Rennie, Deans i.e. in my 60s and with retirement looming, I would.
Not a lot to lose if you fail in very tough circumstances, chance to become a legend for turning it around, and probably the last chance to have a crack at the job you would most likely have coveted over all others throughout your career.i guess you might be right, not sure i like it thought, just role the dice with people with nothing to lose, think i would rather we had a long term plan, set a relistic KPI of the semis with a real aim of 2031 with an dominate squat of vetrans
Yeah look I don't think any single game ought to be a KPI. Things can easily be out of a coaches control in a one-off knockout game, and it would be idiotic to sack a coach if e.g. the 1995 WC final happened.
But winning it should still be the target - we are doing a lot of basic stuff badly, and even so we are still not that far off the pace.obviously a the WRC is the traget, always is.....just dont like the idea its a win or lose KPI
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble If I were someone like Cotter, Rennie, Deans i.e. in my 60s and with retirement looming, I would.
Not a lot to lose if you fail in very tough circumstances, chance to become a legend for turning it around, and probably the last chance to have a crack at the job you would most likely have coveted over all others throughout your career.i guess you might be right, not sure i like it thought, just role the dice with people with nothing to lose, think i would rather we had a long term plan, set a relistic KPI of the semis with a real aim of 2031 with an dominate squat of vetrans
Yeah look I don't think any single game ought to be a KPI. Things can easily be out of a coaches control in a one-off knockout game, and it would be idiotic to sack a coach if e.g. the 1995 WC final happened.
But winning it should still be the target - we are doing a lot of basic stuff badly, and even so we are still not that far off the pace.obviously a the WRC is the traget, always is.....just dont like the idea its a win or lose KPI
I prefer KPIs related to rebuilding morale and unity, focus on a better game plan. Do those things and results will come
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ok so this year with a new coach was does success look like for everyone, and on the other side what does another failure look like and are we in too much shit if it is a failure.
@Chris said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
ok so this year with a new coach was does success look like for everyone, and on the other side what does another failure look like and are we in too much shit if it is a failure.
I think it depends a little bit on what the coaching team looks like.
As I understand it, it is a possibility you see Rennie underneath Joseph, in which case I’d have fairly high hopes of what they can achieve.
In that scenario success would like winning the Springbok Tour, and winning all our home tests - I think that is a high bar, but one that the coaches would want to hold themselves to.
I think there is a fair chance the ABs could be coughing and spluttering by the end of the year given the calendar over the first half of the year.
Failure is probably not measured by results, but more by not being an improvement on Robertson and his group - a very low bar.
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Who knows, maybe BB could be better if he is required to play within a defined structure? Seems he was given too much latitude to do what he wanted, or maybe the lack of gameplan/direction meant he was trying too much?
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Who knows, maybe BB could be better if he is required to play within a defined structure? Seems he was given too much latitude to do what he wanted, or maybe the lack of gameplan/direction meant he was trying too much?
we HAVE to stop with this surely...whenever BB gets critisised to the point we're close to general acceptance he needs to move on.....someone finds a reason to give him..."just one more chance"...hes 34...we're not talking about some young bloke with a bright future, hes been great....hes now very much in the twilight of his career...there is very little resons to make decsions about how we play based around trying to milk the last bit of class out of him
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Who knows, maybe BB could be better if he is required to play within a defined structure? Seems he was given too much latitude to do what he wanted, or maybe the lack of gameplan/direction meant he was trying too much?
we HAVE to stop with this surely...whenever BB gets critisised to the point we're close to general acceptance he needs to move on.....someone finds a reason to give him..."just one more chance"...hes 34...we're not talking about some young bloke with a bright future, hes been great....hes now very much in the twilight of his career...there is very little resons to make decsions about how we play based around trying to milk the last bit of class out of him
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Who knows, maybe BB could be better if he is required to play within a defined structure? Seems he was given too much latitude to do what he wanted, or maybe the lack of gameplan/direction meant he was trying too much?
we HAVE to stop with this surely...whenever BB gets critisised to the point we're close to general acceptance he needs to move on.....someone finds a reason to give him..."just one more chance"...hes 34...we're not talking about some young bloke with a bright future, hes been great....hes now very much in the twilight of his career...there is very little resons to make decsions about how we play based around trying to milk the last bit of class out of him
I wish I could just keep upvoting this post all day.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Who knows, maybe BB could be better if he is required to play within a defined structure? Seems he was given too much latitude to do what he wanted, or maybe the lack of gameplan/direction meant he was trying too much?
we HAVE to stop with this surely...whenever BB gets critisised to the point we're close to general acceptance he needs to move on.....someone finds a reason to give him..."just one more chance"...hes 34...we're not talking about some young bloke with a bright future, hes been great....hes now very much in the twilight of his career...there is very little resons to make decsions about how we play based around trying to milk the last bit of class out of him
@Kiwiwomble I dont disagree, but with all that has gone on, we simply dont know what messages he was getting (or not) similarly Ardie, Parker, Dmac, etc.
He still has alot to offer NZ rugby, but unlikely as a starting AB.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Who knows, maybe BB could be better if he is required to play within a defined structure? Seems he was given too much latitude to do what he wanted, or maybe the lack of gameplan/direction meant he was trying too much?
we HAVE to stop with this surely...whenever BB gets critisised to the point we're close to general acceptance he needs to move on.....someone finds a reason to give him..."just one more chance"...hes 34...we're not talking about some young bloke with a bright future, hes been great....hes now very much in the twilight of his career...there is very little resons to make decsions about how we play based around trying to milk the last bit of class out of him
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Who knows, maybe BB could be better if he is required to play within a defined structure? Seems he was given too much latitude to do what he wanted, or maybe the lack of gameplan/direction meant he was trying too much?
we HAVE to stop with this surely...whenever BB gets critisised to the point we're close to general acceptance he needs to move on.....someone finds a reason to give him..."just one more chance"...hes 34...we're not talking about some young bloke with a bright future, hes been great....hes now very much in the twilight of his career...there is very little resons to make decsions about how we play based around trying to milk the last bit of class out of him
He's closing in on a decade since his best rugby.
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yeah the messaging from these coaches was why he fucking sucked in 2021 and the start of 2022 as well.
They told him to kick away possession with either hail marys or just inaccurate shit. And to stand in the pocket and shovel the shit.
He's cooked.
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@Kiwiwomble I dont disagree, but with all that has gone on, we simply dont know what messages he was getting (or not) similarly Ardie, Parker, Dmac, etc.
He still has alot to offer NZ rugby, but unlikely as a starting AB.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble I dont disagree, but with all that has gone on, we simply dont know what messages he was getting (or not) similarly Ardie, Parker, Dmac, etc.
He still has alot to offer NZ rugby, but unlikely as a starting AB.
BB - I want to drop you but as you Barretts run NZ rugby I can't, so just do what you want.
Ardie - play so god can see you on a highlights reel.
Parker - play like you did for the Chiefs, just maybe less impactful.
DMac - it doesn't matter how you play, RMo is back next year baby. -
@Kiwiwomble I dont disagree, but with all that has gone on, we simply dont know what messages he was getting (or not) similarly Ardie, Parker, Dmac, etc.
He still has alot to offer NZ rugby, but unlikely as a starting AB.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble I dont disagree, but with all that has gone on, we simply dont know what messages he was getting (or not) similarly Ardie, Parker, Dmac, etc.
He still has alot to offer NZ rugby, but unlikely as a starting AB.
If the coaches are telling him to do the cross field kick passes in our own 22...then its on him that he doesnt seem to actually practice them....same with generally kicking game...if the coach want it and hes not getting better at it then thats on him as much as anyone....and bad/slow passing is also on him
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Who knows, maybe BB could be better if he is required to play within a defined structure? Seems he was given too much latitude to do what he wanted, or maybe the lack of gameplan/direction meant he was trying too much?
we HAVE to stop with this surely...whenever BB gets critisised to the point we're close to general acceptance he needs to move on.....someone finds a reason to give him..."just one more chance"...hes 34...we're not talking about some young bloke with a bright future, hes been great....hes now very much in the twilight of his career...there is very little resons to make decsions about how we play based around trying to milk the last bit of class out of him
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
we HAVE to stop with this surely...whenever BB gets critisised to the point we're close to general acceptance he needs to move on.....someone finds a reason to give him..."just one more chance"...hes 34...
Would you say no to 1.5 more years of Brodie Retallick?
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
we HAVE to stop with this surely...whenever BB gets critisised to the point we're close to general acceptance he needs to move on.....someone finds a reason to give him..."just one more chance"...hes 34...
Would you say no to 1.5 more years of Brodie Retallick?
@nostrildamus i dont know honestly, baring hollands new injury i feel locks are looking better and i dont know what he would be like coming back from japan....i also think he was still earning his sport when he left unlike BB who has argueably been riding reputaiton for years
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@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble If I were someone like Cotter, Rennie, Deans i.e. in my 60s and with retirement looming, I would.
Not a lot to lose if you fail in very tough circumstances, chance to become a legend for turning it around, and probably the last chance to have a crack at the job you would most likely have coveted over all others throughout your career.i guess you might be right, not sure i like it thought, just role the dice with people with nothing to lose, think i would rather we had a long term plan, set a relistic KPI of the semis with a real aim of 2031 with an dominate squat of vetrans
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble If I were someone like Cotter, Rennie, Deans i.e. in my 60s and with retirement looming, I would.
Not a lot to lose if you fail in very tough circumstances, chance to become a legend for turning it around, and probably the last chance to have a crack at the job you would most likely have coveted over all others throughout your career.i guess you might be right, not sure i like it thought, just role the dice with people with nothing to lose, think i would rather we had a long term plan, set a relistic KPI of the semis with a real aim of 2031 with an dominate squat of vetrans
If the semis is the KPI, you may as well set it at the WC because we likely have to get past SA to make the semis, so after that things should, conceivably, be just as attainable.
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@Chris said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
ok so this year with a new coach was does success look like for everyone, and on the other side what does another failure look like and are we in too much shit if it is a failure.
I think it depends a little bit on what the coaching team looks like.
As I understand it, it is a possibility you see Rennie underneath Joseph, in which case I’d have fairly high hopes of what they can achieve.
In that scenario success would like winning the Springbok Tour, and winning all our home tests - I think that is a high bar, but one that the coaches would want to hold themselves to.
I think there is a fair chance the ABs could be coughing and spluttering by the end of the year given the calendar over the first half of the year.
Failure is probably not measured by results, but more by not being an improvement on Robertson and his group - a very low bar.
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I just think ruling anyone out right now is far too premature.
Wait and see what these guys who are playing super can do, and if say BB demands selection, then what?
A new coach, a new approach, but let's be honest, based on the past 6 or 7 years of rugby, development has largely been put aside, meaning the cupboard is looking bare for some positions, some risks will need to.be taken (something most expected Razor to do)
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@frugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
Devlin saying next week. Paul Cully inadvertently suggesting this could be Jamie Joseph's last game as Highlanders coach.
From what I do know, Jamie Joseph has been radio silent behind closed doors, which I would suggest means it is decided one way or another, and he wants to get this week out of the way. I have no intel that this is done, but I find it hard to see a world where it is not Joseph.
It was Joseph from the time they thought about sacking Robertson just had to be seen to go through a process.
@Chris said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
It was Joseph from the time they thought about sacking Robertson just had to be seen to go through a process.
I agree to a certain extent.
But I think this time NZR have done a thorough check to see if there are actually any other options.
As has TSF.
Unlike the last three times, Hansen/Foster/Robertson, when there would have been very little process at all, by NZR or TSF. -
I just think ruling anyone out right now is far too premature.
Wait and see what these guys who are playing super can do, and if say BB demands selection, then what?
A new coach, a new approach, but let's be honest, based on the past 6 or 7 years of rugby, development has largely been put aside, meaning the cupboard is looking bare for some positions, some risks will need to.be taken (something most expected Razor to do)
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
I just think ruling anyone out right now is far too premature.
Wait and see what these guys who are playing super can do, and if say BB demands selection, then what?
I totally agree with this, but (in my opinion at least) at no stage in the last 5+ years has he demanded selection as the starting AB 10, so it's kinda moot.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@reprobate said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@Kiwiwomble If I were someone like Cotter, Rennie, Deans i.e. in my 60s and with retirement looming, I would.
Not a lot to lose if you fail in very tough circumstances, chance to become a legend for turning it around, and probably the last chance to have a crack at the job you would most likely have coveted over all others throughout your career.i guess you might be right, not sure i like it thought, just role the dice with people with nothing to lose, think i would rather we had a long term plan, set a relistic KPI of the semis with a real aim of 2031 with an dominate squat of vetrans
Yeah look I don't think any single game ought to be a KPI. Things can easily be out of a coaches control in a one-off knockout game, and it would be idiotic to sack a coach if e.g. the 1995 WC final happened.
But winning it should still be the target - we are doing a lot of basic stuff badly, and even so we are still not that far off the pace.obviously a the WRC is the traget, always is.....just dont like the idea its a win or lose KPI
Whatever the KPIs are, they need to be more nuanced than that. If the team plays exceptionally well or improves consistently over the next two years, only to be knocked out in the World Cup quarterfinal by an opposition playing the game of their lives - with the referee dishing out a handful of questionable cards - it would be tough to justify firing the coach on that basis alone.
Performance and improvement might be difficult to measure or capture in statistics, though. It’s not as easy as showing a nice, neat chart to definitively say a team has improved if they still produce the occasional poor performance or maintain a lower-than-usual win percentage.
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
only to be knocked out in the World Cup quarterfinal
Looking at the way the RWC draw is set up; there is going to be a huge collision at QF time.
So a KPI of RWC semi-final would actually be ok by me. -
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
well you'd hope they have learnt from both Foster & Razors time and the extensions, KPIs (possible lack of clear ones) and targets.
I am not sure offering anyone a 4 year contract now serves coach or ABs well, although if there are some very strict measures for review after the RWC with option to continue or part ways, maybe, but you'd think a 2 year contract with right of extension should be on offer.
Fozzie was 2 years initially, then extended, while Razor was 4 years, and well....
I actually like the use of "trajectory" - though it will almost certainly be used as the bloody big stick to beat the coach with. I'm actually OK with occasional shit games and losses (but only to the Boks) if I can see an overall plan unfolding.
In the last 4-5 years we've seen Foster with his back constantly against the wall and unable to seemingly move forward and Robertson who didn't seem to know which direction was actually forward. A 2+2 contract seems the best way forward provided no one is expecting miracles this year. A decent SA tour would be strong progress for me.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks - New Coach Selection:
well you'd hope they have learnt from both Foster & Razors time and the extensions, KPIs (possible lack of clear ones) and targets.
I am not sure offering anyone a 4 year contract now serves coach or ABs well, although if there are some very strict measures for review after the RWC with option to continue or part ways, maybe, but you'd think a 2 year contract with right of extension should be on offer.
Fozzie was 2 years initially, then extended, while Razor was 4 years, and well....
I actually like the use of "trajectory" - though it will almost certainly be used as the bloody big stick to beat the coach with. I'm actually OK with occasional shit games and losses (but only to the Boks) if I can see an overall plan unfolding.
In the last 4-5 years we've seen Foster with his back constantly against the wall and unable to seemingly move forward and Robertson who didn't seem to know which direction was actually forward. A 2+2 contract seems the best way forward provided no one is expecting miracles this year. A decent SA tour would be strong progress for me.
Win that series and name your terms!
