All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3
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@canefan said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale So that's still a penalty right?
No, I don't think so. I'm surmising here. If Poite is saying to Read that the ball hit Owens first on the shoulder then that is accidental offside. Handling it is secondary.
That's my assumption of what transpired. I can't see another reason as to why he would say that to Read when Read queried it.
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
No, I don't think so. I'm surmising here. If Poite is saying to Read that the ball hit Owens first on the shoulder then that is accidental offside. Handling it is secondary.
Shoulder or arm? Because their first thought was arm, and that was the discussion with the TMO. Shoulder I"m not sure about ...
Besides, once the decision is made on the ground, there is actually nothing in the laws that I know of that allows a call to be changed. So really, it's semantics - Ref got it wrong, it's representative of refs in sport at the moment, and it's a terrible look for the game.
For context, that's two games in two weeks that were decided by the application of a 'technical' penalty. With laws that are both pretty shit.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Why is an article about Barrett's kicking in 2016 being dredged up as some indicator Hansen is mental? It's over halfway through 2017, show me those stats.
As someone said yesterday, I fear WR are going to remain silent on Poite and Garces, which is shithouse. Garces was just incompetent, but Poite showed some next level dodgyness. They should be fucking hauled.
Fuck we really are the great complainers of world rugby, the only reason we ever lose is because the referee screwed us.
We lost because we played poorly. And didn't take our chances (penalty kicks included)
Beauden isn't a great kicker under pressure.
We would have won the second test if he made a couple of kicks that most other international kickers would have made. Likewise the third... and that's not including the one we turned down from 45 metres late in the game.
I've seen Jordie nail that kick before.
He also cost the Hurricanes the 2015 final with his erratic kicking.
But keep rolling out stats from 80 point wins against Samoa/ The Sunwolves etc to prove your point... kicking under pressure is different
@SammyC said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Bones said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Why is an article about Barrett's kicking in 2016 being dredged up as some indicator Hansen is mental? It's over halfway through 2017, show me those stats.
As someone said yesterday, I fear WR are going to remain silent on Poite and Garces, which is shithouse. Garces was just incompetent, but Poite showed some next level dodgyness. They should be fucking hauled.
Fuck we really are the great complainers of world rugby, the only reason we ever lose is because the referee screwed us.
Don't agree with that at all. We had our first ever loss to Ireland last year and there was not a peep about the ref screwing us. The ref will cop it when he bottles it, that's not unique to the All Blacks. Look at the Wallabies v Scotland quarter final.
That was an astounding decision and Poite deserves all the criticism coming his way. As @nzzp pointed out nobody, not a single person on here, is claiming that is the only reason we lost. But it sure as fuck is one of them, and I struggle to understand why you'd just discount it given it was in the final minutes of the game - which is the time when games are regularly won and lost at that level.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@canefan said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11888137
Garces and Poite shouldn't even be allowed to ref club rugby
The headline doesn't match the content of the article. Since they don't have the transcript of what Garces said, they can't make that assertion. Nonetheless, I had heard Poite say Oui, Jerome on his way back to bring captains together and wondered what Garces had said.
Poite made his decision of accidental on his view that the ball first hit Owens on the shoulder before he reflexively caught it with his left hand. That's what he is saying to Read.
He played at it. Then, knowing he'd stuffed up he dropped it. The frogs shat the bed
Yes, he played it. After it hit him on the shoulder is what Poite said.
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@canefan said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@canefan said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11888137
Garces and Poite shouldn't even be allowed to ref club rugby
The headline doesn't match the content of the article. Since they don't have the transcript of what Garces said, they can't make that assertion. Nonetheless, I had heard Poite say Oui, Jerome on his way back to bring captains together and wondered what Garces had said.
Poite made his decision of accidental on his view that the ball first hit Owens on the shoulder before he reflexively caught it with his left hand. That's what he is saying to Read.
He played at it. Then, knowing he'd stuffed up he dropped it. The frogs shat the bed
Yes, he played it. After it hit him on the shoulder is what Poite said.
So you admit he committed a penalisable offence. Nice of you. Always knew you Irish were fair and reasonable
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@canefan said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11888137
Garces and Poite shouldn't even be allowed to ref club rugby
The headline doesn't match the content of the article. Since they don't have the transcript of what Garces said, they can't make that assertion. Nonetheless, I had heard Poite say Oui, Jerome on his way back to bring captains together and wondered what Garces had said.
Poite made his decision of accidental on his view that the ball first hit Owens on the shoulder before he reflexively caught it with his left hand. That's what he is saying to Read.
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Since they don't have the transcript of what Garces said, they can't make that assertion.
It's not a huge leap to assume that Garces influenced the decision between penalty and accidental offside as he was the only one to speak to him in that time.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale So that's still a penalty right?
No, I don't think so. I'm surmising here. If Poite is saying to Read that the ball hit Owens first on the shoulder then that is accidental offside. Handling it is secondary.
That's my assumption of what transpired. I can't see another reason as to why he would say that to Read when Read queried it.
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@canefan said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Pot-Hale So that's still a penalty right?
No, I don't think so. I'm surmising here. If Poite is saying to Read that the ball hit Owens first on the shoulder then that is accidental offside. Handling it is secondary.
That's my assumption of what transpired. I can't see another reason as to why he would say that to Read when Read queried it.
so is that like when you make a tackle, initial contact hitting the chest, slides up and hits the jaw, the contact with the jaw is ok cos it's secondary?
Poite's decision (be it his own or Garces') was a factor in us losing, but there were numerous other factors (of our own doing) that caused us to be in that position to allow the ref to influence the outcome.
Game shoulda been out of reach after 40.
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The part of that match I got annoyed. After Laumape's breakaway when he is run down and throws an in field speculator that is intercepted by Watson. The All Black counter rucking was fucking pathetic, I was literally yelling "ruck it you fucking pussies".
Eventually Julian did put in a good effort, too good as he blew right past the ball and Lions secured it a second time. The fact that he was able to do this so easily, yet so late, shows how wide open they were while several All Blacks stood their like passive statues. Eventually was a very easy clearance by Murray.
Mitigation was that this was after an extraordinary period of end to end action.
But gee they lacked some killer instinct there. At least they didn't blow over it POC style and concede a cheap penalty while hot on attack.
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Apologies if this has been raised already but why did we not setup for a drop goal at the death? We had 3? capable kickers that could do it. We were right in front not far out. I'm assuming most top teams would have gone for this instead of spreading it wide? Didn't we get into the goat a few moons ago about ignoring drop goals?
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Apologies if this has been raised already but why did we not setup for a drop goal at the death? We had 3? capable kickers that could do it. We were right in front not far out. I'm assuming most top teams would have gone for this instead of spreading it wide? Didn't we get into the goat a few moons ago about ignoring drop goals?
@chimoaus said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Apologies if this has been raised already but why did we not setup for a drop goal at the death. We had 3? capable kickers that could do it. We were right in front not far out. I'm assuming most top teams would have gone for this instead of spreading it wide? Didn't we get into the goat a few moons ago about ignoring drop goals?
It hasn't really been discussed and is a fair point, especially when Jordie seems to be able to whack them over from anywhere.
Hindsight I guess...
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Apologies if this has been raised already but why did we not setup for a drop goal at the death? We had 3? capable kickers that could do it. We were right in front not far out. I'm assuming most top teams would have gone for this instead of spreading it wide? Didn't we get into the goat a few moons ago about ignoring drop goals?
@chimoaus said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Apologies if this has been raised already but why did we not setup for a drop goal at the death?
Because TJP was seagulling and watching the scrum instead of the ball. Failed to do his basic job. He's been so good for the Canes and against Samoa, but fark me he's been headless when he comes on for the ABs.
Aaron's still number one, and by some margin
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Apologies if this has been raised already but why did we not setup for a drop goal at the death. We had 3? capable kickers that could do it. We were right in front not far out. I'm assuming most top teams would have gone for this instead of spreading it wide? Didn't we get into the goat a few moons ago about ignoring drop goals?
It hasn't really been discussed and is a fair point, especially when Jordie seems to be able to whack them over from anywhere.
Hindsight I guess...
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Apologies if this has been raised already but why did we not setup for a drop goal at the death. We had 3? capable kickers that could do it. We were right in front not far out. I'm assuming most top teams would have gone for this instead of spreading it wide? Didn't we get into the goat a few moons ago about ignoring drop goals?
It hasn't really been discussed and is a fair point, especially when Jordie seems to be able to whack them over from anywhere.
Hindsight I guess...
Did you see what he did when the first half ended? He was pushed into touch near the halfway, then turned around and kicked the ball right through the posts. He has some freakish skills.
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Poite's wasn't the biggest individual error of the night.
Savea dropping a sitter, and Barrett missing from in front were the biggest game defining errors of the night. Somewhere in behind those 2 clangers and Poite would be Smith's supersonic pop pass from the tighthead.
I have real doubts about Savea's big game temperament, almost a carbon copy of him fluffing the 2015 SR final.
Barrett I have doubts about his goal kicking, well duh ...... but I don't doubt his game temperament, although the ultra flat backline is high risk high reward but he has plenty of other parts to his game.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Apologies if this has been raised already but why did we not setup for a drop goal at the death?
Because TJP was seagulling and watching the scrum instead of the ball. Failed to do his basic job. He's been so good for the Canes and against Samoa, but fark me he's been headless when he comes on for the ABs.
Aaron's still number one, and by some margin
@nzzp what this series showed is that Aaron Smith is back and TJ is still some ways off.
I think Smith needed to stay on in test 2 & 3, he did stay longer in #3, but as Woodward pointed out in #2, this was a turning point in that game when Smith went and TJ came on.
Sometimes you do wonder about subs whether they are done tactically or just cos...it certainly felt like TJ and Scott Barrett subs on Saturday were done just cos.
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@nzzp what this series showed is that Aaron Smith is back and TJ is still some ways off.
I think Smith needed to stay on in test 2 & 3, he did stay longer in #3, but as Woodward pointed out in #2, this was a turning point in that game when Smith went and TJ came on.
Sometimes you do wonder about subs whether they are done tactically or just cos...it certainly felt like TJ and Scott Barrett subs on Saturday were done just cos.
I can't back this up but I think that when Smith was at his best before he had that small crash in form, he would indicate when he was ready to be subbed in that he would use everything in the tank.
It really raised my eyebrows when I read the article when ever it was.
I'm not sure that holds true at the moment though as Smith did seem a bit miffed over being subbed
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@MiketheSnow
Sorry, I disagree, Read didn't make the Lions player fall, it was his other team mate unbalancing him, and a hollywood where he lifted his legs and flopped on the ground.It was an appalling decision. Poite clearly lied twice. He said we have a deal, meaning the umpires have an agreement. However, that is not what he said to the video ref (I did not hear him talk to Garces). Then, he said to both captains that 16 red didn't play at the ball, it just touched him on the shoulder accidentally, so they play the knock on.
We also lost 15 seconds of gametime before they stopped the clock.
The other thing is he did not give any advantage, and ALB was away.
Sorry, but one or two lies and inability to apply advantage, or stop the clock quickly. An incompetent performance.
@Wairau said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@MiketheSnow
Sorry, I disagree, Read didn't make the Lions player fall, it was his other team mate unbalancing him, and a hollywood where he lifted his legs and flopped on the ground.It was an appalling decision. Poite clearly lied twice. He said we have a deal, meaning the umpires have an agreement. However, that is not what he said to the video ref (I did not hear him talk to Garces). Then, he said to both captains that 16 red didn't play at the ball, it just touched him on the shoulder accidentally, so they play the knock on.
We also lost 15 seconds of gametime before they stopped the clock.
The other thing is he did not give any advantage, and ALB was away.
Sorry, but one or two lies and inability to apply advantage, or stop the clock quickly. An incompetent performance.
When have I said that the final decision was incorrect?
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Poite's wasn't the biggest individual error of the night.
Savea dropping a sitter, and Barrett missing from in front were the biggest game defining errors of the night. Somewhere in behind those 2 clangers and Poite would be Smith's supersonic pop pass from the tighthead.
I have real doubts about Savea's big game temperament, almost a carbon copy of him fluffing the 2015 SR final.
Barrett I have doubts about his goal kicking, well duh ...... but I don't doubt his game temperament, although the ultra flat backline is high risk high reward but he has plenty of other parts to his game.
It is funny, Beaudie seems to have a great temperament when the pressure is on but he just is not a consistent goal kicker. Fluffs them at the beginning as much as at the end. Ultimately we have to have a goal kicking full-back or Beaudie goes to 15 and we have a goal-kicking 10. I really hate having to move Ben Smith to the wing but you feel like we might be heading there.
Savea had some really good moments but for me his drop and his dreadful support line of Laumape was criminal.
