England vs All Blacks
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@pukunui said in England vs All Blacks:
Crotty in particular showed he is still valuable after being written off on here lately.
See comments above about Dubs. We fans write people off too early.
@booboo said in England vs All Blacks:
@pukunui said in England vs All Blacks:
Crotty in particular showed he is still valuable after being written off on here lately.
See comments above about Dubs. We fans write people off too early.
Except when we refuse to accept that a guy is actually past it.
See defenders of Julian Savea when it was clear he had lost his pace and was barely Super level.
And, weirdly, the coaches with NMS.
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The scrums weren't set properly all game. There was no engage and I think that helped the white team.
I was screaming at the ref but in the second half he rebuked both front rows for not keeping a space, saying " you guys don't want to keep a gap".
I'm a bit sympathetic (a bit) here because any decent scrum needs buy in from both teams but it really needed sorting out earlier.
We missed a trick there but England held a steady scrum throughout. -
Hopefully 'interesting' includes 'good' in some way
I had another rewatch of the first 20 odd minutes, and we really started poorly. We gave them possession in our half twice (BBBR drop, Taylor overthrow), and both times they scored points. On that first try, it looks to me like SBW makes the wrong read and goes back across field, leaving us short to cover the left side. No idea why he did that as it left Rieko lost covering two men.
We missed some luck - if Dmac could have held the Barrett bomb (one of his only contestable kicks in the half), it would have been 8-7 after 16 minutes. Sadly, he dropped it.
It's certainly true that our box kicks were poor, but during that first 20, almost all of the aimless kicks came from Barrett (SBW had one shocker). The missed penalty touch is also a bit unforgivable, given the state of the match. Other errors gave England the ball too - such as Ardie losing the ball in the tackle to Itoje, and I saw another bad line out - looked like a missed lift (by Franks or Read, I couldn't quite see who was meant to be jumping). With the scrum only holding its ground, I'd say that our set piece was actually another contributor to the poor start, and that's probably one reason why Taylor has got no MOTM votes - which is rare for him.
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Conspiracy alert:
No replay of the dodgy touchfinder described above by Bones
No replay of the Read knock on under the sticks. As the scrum was being slowed down by a contact lens replacement or any other thing to slow the game down the Black team were querying the ref for a highshot.
I think a knock on replay in front of the sticks with only minutes to go ain't bad broadcasting . Some game saving defence there.
Replay? No effin way....
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@pukunui said in England vs All Blacks:
Only just watched my recording of the game. After reading this tgread and various things in the media i was expecting a totally different game.
What i saw was a dreary, wet kick fest. Other than being fired up for 20 mins and taking two chances well England offered fuck all. The two Mauls that ended up with a knock on were the only times they looked remotely threatening.
For the ABs i saw 30 mins of rubbish tactics of kicking everything. Worse still it was poorly executed. Crotty was clearly given a message to take out with him which was stop kicking the fucking thing away.
Nobody really played poorly IMO, kicking aside.
A Smith wasn't as bad as some have said. Poor kicking at times and the pass to Ardie. But Ardie should have caught that or not have been so flat.SBW also gets judge fucking harshly. I was expecting a shocker. He dropped one poor pass and dropped the high ball as he got a white shoulder in his back. There was also a nothing kick but that was clearly a team tactic given everyone was doing it. What exactly did people expect from him? His propensity to get injured half way through a game is a big problem. However that should count Crotty, Squire, Moody and Coles out too.
Crotty in particular showed he is still valuable after being written off on here lately.
Dmac was a bit of a mixed bag. Some good cleaning up and a few good runs but his ball security was poor and he was partly to blame for the first england try.
Anyway hopefully the weather isn't shit for the Ireland game.
I seem to recall an earlier post where some wise person pointed out something similar.
But but but favouritism, money, contracts, reputation and being expected to win the match on his own, as opposed to just being effective, a strong ball runner and hole puncher and defensive bulwark, means drop him from as great a height as possible.
@booboo said in England vs All Blacks:
@pukunui said in England vs All Blacks:
Only just watched my recording of the game. After reading this tgread and various things in the media i was expecting a totally different game.
What i saw was a dreary, wet kick fest. Other than being fired up for 20 mins and taking two chances well England offered fuck all. The two Mauls that ended up with a knock on were the only times they looked remotely threatening.
For the ABs i saw 30 mins of rubbish tactics of kicking everything. Worse still it was poorly executed. Crotty was clearly given a message to take out with him which was stop kicking the fucking thing away.
Nobody really played poorly IMO, kicking aside.
A Smith wasn't as bad as some have said. Poor kicking at times and the pass to Ardie. But Ardie should have caught that or not have been so flat.SBW also gets judge fucking harshly. I was expecting a shocker. He dropped one poor pass and dropped the high ball as he got a white shoulder in his back. There was also a nothing kick but that was clearly a team tactic given everyone was doing it. What exactly did people expect from him? His propensity to get injured half way through a game is a big problem. However that should count Crotty, Squire, Moody and Coles out too.
Crotty in particular showed he is still valuable after being written off on here lately.
Dmac was a bit of a mixed bag. Some good cleaning up and a few good runs but his ball security was poor and he was partly to blame for the first england try.
Anyway hopefully the weather isn't shit for the Ireland game.
I seem to recall an earlier post where some wise person pointed out something similar.
But but but favouritism, money, contracts, reputation and being expected to win the match on his own, as opposed to just being effective, a strong ball runner and hole puncher and defensive bulwark, means drop him from as great a height as possible.
If only Sonny was hole punching and running the ball strongly, then he wouldn’t be talked about.
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@gt12 actually that missed penalty touch - isn't that just awful reffing? That ball was well out and was tapped in by someone who was out. I seem to recall they clarified the laws around ball in touch fairly recently - is this now allowed?
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@margin_walker said in England vs All Blacks:
2 points worth noting
- He's Welsh
- He lives for the reaction he gets from Kiwis, it keeps his profile sky high online despite the paywall. Every time he mentions New Zealand, the bloke gets an unofficial syndication in Stuff or The NZ Herald. If everyone just stopped talking about his latest missives they'd wither behind the paywall.
That's hardly our fault - media be media. IIRC twice he was given regular columns in NZ publications and both times he got the boot (a Sunday paper and NZ %Rugby Monthly) because the readers didn't want his drivel.
@nepia said in England vs All Blacks:
the readers didn't want his drivel.
Actually, his reputation among genuine Pom rugby supporters is that of being a complete and utter tosser. I just laugh at his ineptitude of his "analysis"
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@jc said in England vs All Blacks:
thems some bitter, bitter tears!
@taniwharugby said in England vs All Blacks:
thems some bitter, bitter tears!
Perhaps a Fern whiparound to send him a case of Hawkes Bay lemons? :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:
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I’ll check it when I get home, but I thought it was a legit knock back due to a poor kick.
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Law 18.2 c says you can jump from inside and throw it back regardless of whether they end up in touch afterward and regardless of whether the ball has crossed the plane. Has that one been changed?
@gt12 said in England vs All Blacks:
Law 18.2 c says you can jump from inside and throw it back regardless of whether they end up in touch afterward and regardless of whether the ball has crossed the plane. Has that one been changed?
Ah hah, cheers! Still wouldn't have minded a replay, it looked tight. I think that's what's changed recently isn't it?
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@jegga s favourite coach has given us a staggeringly ( for him ) accurate and magnanimous ( once you stop choking from shock ) insight.
The worlds biggest cockwomble coach said they fucked it..... That's good enough for me. Lets move on, when are they naming the team for Ireland ?
@mn5 said in England vs All Blacks:
@jegga s favourite coach has given us a staggeringly ( for him ) accurate and magnanimous ( once you stop choking from shock ) insight.
The worlds biggest cockwomble coach said they fucked it..... That's good enough for me. Lets move on, when are they naming the team for Ireland ?
Normally zone out when Woodward speaks but this time he was spot on.
Poor onfield decision making.
You can understand why they went for it, the second try showed NZ were unable to defend the driving maul.
But critically that was the first half ABs.
In the second half, NZ had changed personnel & tactics hence the comeback and England failing to score for close to 50 mins or so.
And England had changed personnel too.
Expecting the same outcome when different personnel for both sides are involved smacks of complete confidence, naivety or dare I say it arrogance.
NZ adapted and evolved over the course of the 80 minutes.
England did not.
That was the difference IMHO.
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@taniwharugby said in England vs All Blacks:
thems some bitter, bitter tears!
Perhaps a Fern whiparound to send him a case of Hawkes Bay lemons? :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:
@victor-meldrew said in England vs All Blacks:
@taniwharugby said in England vs All Blacks:
thems some bitter, bitter tears!
Perhaps a Fern whiparound to send him a case of Hawkes Bay lemons? :smiling_face_with_sunglasses:
Wait, do we grow lemons?
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@mn5 said in England vs All Blacks:
@jegga s favourite coach has given us a staggeringly ( for him ) accurate and magnanimous ( once you stop choking from shock ) insight.
The worlds biggest cockwomble coach said they fucked it..... That's good enough for me. Lets move on, when are they naming the team for Ireland ?
Get fucked ,even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
No one in their right mind will hire him as a coach now so he’s trying to make himself into some sort of comments man . Trouble is he looks and sounds like the sort of person who has a freezer in his garden shed full of women’s feet.@jegga said in England vs All Blacks:
Trouble is he looks and sounds like the sort of person who has a freezer in his garden shed full of women’s feet.
Fark me. That imagery just sent the muesli in my mouth all over the kitchen table.
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@jegga said in England vs All Blacks:
Trouble is he looks and sounds like the sort of person who has a freezer in his garden shed full of women’s feet.
Fark me. That imagery just sent the muesli in my mouth all over the kitchen table.
@victor-meldrew said in England vs All Blacks:
@jegga said in England vs All Blacks:
Trouble is he looks and sounds like the sort of person who has a freezer in his garden shed full of women’s feet.
Fark me. That imagery just sent the muesli in my mouth all over the kitchen table.
It’s good eh? I read it out to Mrs JC. She thought it was really mean and vicious. Then I showed her the picture and she just said “oh, yeah”.
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@gt12 said in England vs All Blacks:
Law 18.2 c says you can jump from inside and throw it back regardless of whether they end up in touch afterward and regardless of whether the ball has crossed the plane. Has that one been changed?
Ah hah, cheers! Still wouldn't have minded a replay, it looked tight. I think that's what's changed recently isn't it?
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Watching it now. It's a misjudged kick with Barrett trying to get just a bit too much ground with not enough distance.
The player just jumps out of play and throws it back according to law 18.2c
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@mn5 said in England vs All Blacks:
@jegga s favourite coach has given us a staggeringly ( for him ) accurate and magnanimous ( once you stop choking from shock ) insight.
The worlds biggest cockwomble coach said they fucked it..... That's good enough for me. Lets move on, when are they naming the team for Ireland ?
Normally zone out when Woodward speaks but this time he was spot on.
Poor onfield decision making.
You can understand why they went for it, the second try showed NZ were unable to defend the driving maul.
But critically that was the first half ABs.
In the second half, NZ had changed personnel & tactics hence the comeback and England failing to score for close to 50 mins or so.
And England had changed personnel too.
Expecting the same outcome when different personnel for both sides are involved smacks of complete confidence, naivety or dare I say it arrogance.
NZ adapted and evolved over the course of the 80 minutes.
England did not.
That was the difference IMHO.
@mikethesnow said in England vs All Blacks:
@mn5 said in England vs All Blacks:
@jegga s favourite coach has given us a staggeringly ( for him ) accurate and magnanimous ( once you stop choking from shock ) insight.
The worlds biggest cockwomble coach said they fucked it..... That's good enough for me. Lets move on, when are they naming the team for Ireland ?
Normally zone out when Woodward speaks but this time he was spot on.
Poor onfield decision making.
You can understand why they went for it, the second try showed NZ were unable to defend the driving maul.
But critically that was the first half ABs.
In the second half, NZ had changed personnel & tactics hence the comeback and England failing to score for close to 50 mins or so.
And England had changed personnel too.
Expecting the same outcome when different personnel for both sides are involved smacks of complete confidence, naivety or dare I say it arrogance.
NZ adapted and evolved over the course of the 80 minutes.
England did not.
That was the difference IMHO.
Funny thing is that this is the opposite of what happened in the Eng v SA test. In that one England adapted the lineout defence to make it difficult for SA to remain dominant. If they thought the ABs were dumb enough to fall for the same trick used in that try (running sideways) then they really are naïve or arrogant.
Also falling for the same issues they were happy to point the finger at us for. Namely goal kicking % (apparently our big weakness - even Woodentop still thinks Farrell is a 100% kicker) and not taking drop goals when they are on (pre game this was a sign of NZ arrogance, now it is a sign of English confidence) -
Hopefully 'interesting' includes 'good' in some way
I had another rewatch of the first 20 odd minutes, and we really started poorly. We gave them possession in our half twice (BBBR drop, Taylor overthrow), and both times they scored points. On that first try, it looks to me like SBW makes the wrong read and goes back across field, leaving us short to cover the left side. No idea why he did that as it left Rieko lost covering two men.
We missed some luck - if Dmac could have held the Barrett bomb (one of his only contestable kicks in the half), it would have been 8-7 after 16 minutes. Sadly, he dropped it.
It's certainly true that our box kicks were poor, but during that first 20, almost all of the aimless kicks came from Barrett (SBW had one shocker). The missed penalty touch is also a bit unforgivable, given the state of the match. Other errors gave England the ball too - such as Ardie losing the ball in the tackle to Itoje, and I saw another bad line out - looked like a missed lift (by Franks or Read, I couldn't quite see who was meant to be jumping). With the scrum only holding its ground, I'd say that our set piece was actually another contributor to the poor start, and that's probably one reason why Taylor has got no MOTM votes - which is rare for him.
@gt12 said in England vs All Blacks:
On that first try, it looks to me like SBW makes the wrong read and goes back across field, leaving us short to cover the left side. No idea why he did that as it left Rieko lost covering two men.
That's a rather odd analysis. I tried to explain back in the thread what happened there as it was an example of very good pre-match analysis by Eddie (credit where it is due).
Reiko never came off his line out wide. He was always stationed about 20 metres in as per the defence pattern. DMac is meant to be the sweeper covering the outside channel (pretty standard stuff even in my day) and he would have done that job except that England moved the tackle/ruck gradually to the side until it reached the point of the defensive wrap where defenders change numbers on sides. I think from memory you will see BFA and SBW run to the other side and DMac starts to change his position to be closer to the other side as well. England time the recycle perfectly and catch DMac on the move in the wrong direction. By the time he reacts to the long pass he can't get to the ball carrier in front of the tryline.Those guys on the 1014 rugby highlighted this tipping point of the defence wrap as a potential weakness before the game.
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@gt12 said in England vs All Blacks:
On that first try, it looks to me like SBW makes the wrong read and goes back across field, leaving us short to cover the left side. No idea why he did that as it left Rieko lost covering two men.
That's a rather odd analysis. I tried to explain back in the thread what happened there as it was an example of very good pre-match analysis by Eddie (credit where it is due).
Reiko never came off his line out wide. He was always stationed about 20 metres in as per the defence pattern. DMac is meant to be the sweeper covering the outside channel (pretty standard stuff even in my day) and he would have done that job except that England moved the tackle/ruck gradually to the side until it reached the point of the defensive wrap where defenders change numbers on sides. I think from memory you will see BFA and SBW run to the other side and DMac starts to change his position to be closer to the other side as well. England time the recycle perfectly and catch DMac on the move in the wrong direction. By the time he reacts to the long pass he can't get to the ball carrier in front of the tryline.Those guys on the 1014 rugby highlighted this tipping point of the defence wrap as a potential weakness before the game.
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I've just finished watching the replay, and I'm happy to accept that it's taking advantage of our defensive pattern. Nevertheless, go watch it yourself and see SBW leave them there against 6 men.
@gt12 said in England vs All Blacks:
I've just finished watching the replay, and I'm happy to accept that it's taking advantage of your defensive pattern. Nevertheless, go watch it yourself and see SBW leave them there against 6 men.
I suppose what I am saying is that singling out only one player when they were all following the trained defensive pattern they are told to trust is a little unfair.
Just seen the latest 1014 post match and they reckon DMac was tracking Daly. Daly ran to the left putting DMac on the wrong foot to sweep to the right.
Edit: have rewatched and there was no reason that the backs (other than Goodhue and Reiko) wouldn't leave that side.
In fact you can see on the end on view BFA (I think) waving his hand calling the others to the wrong side.
You talk about 6 on 2 but it was a case of the tipping point for the wrap being triggered both positionally and by the England backs all running to the other side as well (10, 11,12, 13, 15) all ran left. For the backs it was 2 on 2 and the other 4 England players you mention were forwards directly behind the halfback (and ref) that were covered by our forwards close to the ruck)
AS covered the halfback, Goodhue covered channel 1 should the ball go out the back to Itoje and co on the wraparound, Reiko was covering the one forward in front of him and fully expected that DMac would be covering the tramlines should the ball get out there.
Until Daly moved DMac was actually behind and wider than Reiko, he was drawn 10 metres the wrong way then spun back when he saw that the halfback wasn't following the backs. It was a brilliant pass and DMac had been manipulated by Daly for enough time to create the huge space.
