2020 All Blacks Squad
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@pakman said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@cgrant said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
Big does not mean good as far as midfielders are concerned. Speed and technical abilities are what counts most.
I've always liked one bigger to run crash ball as required matched with one leaner/faster. Osbourne/Robertson, Nonu/Conrad, etc..
Laumape is a smasher. He needs to expand his game, he has the potential. Nonu didn't develop until quite late, he took a long time to win many posters over
@canefan said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@pakman said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@cgrant said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
Big does not mean good as far as midfielders are concerned. Speed and technical abilities are what counts most.
I've always liked one bigger to run crash ball as required matched with one leaner/faster. Osbourne/Robertson, Nonu/Conrad, etc..
Laumape is a smasher. He needs to expand his game, he has the potential. Nonu didn't develop until quite late, he took a long time to win many posters over
I posted in support around the time Dan was moving full time to first five.
Tried to recover it but seems lost in the sands of time!
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looking at our best mid-fielders over the past 10-20 years, they tend to hit thier straps around 27/28ish...which bodes well for the likes of Laumape, ALB & Goodhue, probably Rieko and Jordie too.
While our wings seem to fall off a cliff at that age, our centres mature.
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ALB reminds me of Walter Little as much as anyone.
On size - you have people like Tuilagi listed at 114 kgs vs someone like ALB listed at 96 kgs - so giving away nearly 20 kgs. And most forwards north of 110kgs - plenty more than 120 kgs.
It's tough to win the collision when you're giving away that much size.
Jack's a bit bigger at 100kgs, but I wouldn't mind seeing him a bit heavier still. Nonu and SBW listed at 108kgs seem ideal for the "broadsword" in midfield.
What starts to become problematic is when you have three little guys in the backs - Smith, Mo'unga and Reece - and the rest of the backline are only moderately sized - Beauden, Bridge and the two midfielders.
You're starting to lose a lot of collisions! If you're n the back foot, who do you give it to to smash forward and get some front foot ball?
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ALB reminds me of Walter Little as much as anyone.
On size - you have people like Tuilagi listed at 114 kgs vs someone like ALB listed at 96 kgs - so giving away nearly 20 kgs. And most forwards north of 110kgs - plenty more than 120 kgs.
It's tough to win the collision when you're giving away that much size.
Jack's a bit bigger at 100kgs, but I wouldn't mind seeing him a bit heavier still. Nonu and SBW listed at 108kgs seem ideal for the "broadsword" in midfield.
What starts to become problematic is when you have three little guys in the backs - Smith, Mo'unga and Reece - and the rest of the backline are only moderately sized - Beauden, Bridge and the two midfielders.
You're starting to lose a lot of collisions! If you're n the back foot, who do you give it to to smash forward and get some front foot ball?
@Chris-B agree to a point, but there were concerns with our small backs v SA in pool play, but it didnt affect us.
I expect Jack could put on a few more kgs easily enough without affecting him.
there arent too many big bruisers playing the mid-field in NZ presently who look like they will make the step up in the next year or 2...
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ALB reminds me of Walter Little as much as anyone.
On size - you have people like Tuilagi listed at 114 kgs vs someone like ALB listed at 96 kgs - so giving away nearly 20 kgs. And most forwards north of 110kgs - plenty more than 120 kgs.
It's tough to win the collision when you're giving away that much size.
Jack's a bit bigger at 100kgs, but I wouldn't mind seeing him a bit heavier still. Nonu and SBW listed at 108kgs seem ideal for the "broadsword" in midfield.
What starts to become problematic is when you have three little guys in the backs - Smith, Mo'unga and Reece - and the rest of the backline are only moderately sized - Beauden, Bridge and the two midfielders.
You're starting to lose a lot of collisions! If you're n the back foot, who do you give it to to smash forward and get some front foot ball?
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
If you're n the back foot, who do you give it to to smash forward and get some front foot ball?
Maybe they should rely on innovative superior skills (and hopefully speed) rather than trying to bash and smash your way through to see some dividends paid.
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ALB reminds me of Walter Little as much as anyone.
On size - you have people like Tuilagi listed at 114 kgs vs someone like ALB listed at 96 kgs - so giving away nearly 20 kgs. And most forwards north of 110kgs - plenty more than 120 kgs.
It's tough to win the collision when you're giving away that much size.
Jack's a bit bigger at 100kgs, but I wouldn't mind seeing him a bit heavier still. Nonu and SBW listed at 108kgs seem ideal for the "broadsword" in midfield.
What starts to become problematic is when you have three little guys in the backs - Smith, Mo'unga and Reece - and the rest of the backline are only moderately sized - Beauden, Bridge and the two midfielders.
You're starting to lose a lot of collisions! If you're n the back foot, who do you give it to to smash forward and get some front foot ball?
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
On size - you have people like Tuilagi listed at 114 kgs vs someone like ALB listed at 96 kgs - so giving away nearly 20 kgs. And most forwards north of 110kgs - plenty more than 120 kgs.
It's tough to win the collision when you're giving away that much size.When does ALB loose collisions often?
Is this one of those Fern things (like England were apparently always unbeatable) that gets started and then people just start believing it for no good reason?
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@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
On size - you have people like Tuilagi listed at 114 kgs vs someone like ALB listed at 96 kgs - so giving away nearly 20 kgs. And most forwards north of 110kgs - plenty more than 120 kgs.
It's tough to win the collision when you're giving away that much size.When does ALB loose collisions often?
Is this one of those Fern things (like England were apparently always unbeatable) that gets started and then people just start believing it for no good reason?
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
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@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
This is the reason i think Frank Bunce is the best centre i ever saw. It didn't matter what the ball was, or what the rest of the team was doing, Frank was almost a guarantee to generate quick, front-foot ball. A fucking hero.
He also liked to absolutely level blokes in tackles. I love Frank.
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@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
I think there’s some truth in this, and we let Tuilagi and the other backs get too much room all day. I think much of that is due to our defensive system, which was very passive, so we made our tackles (mostly) but also gave up ground. In the final, SA got around this by using an accurate rush - Manu hardly saw the ball.
We are a bit over reliant on Cane, Savea, and BBBR to make impact tackles around the ruck and towards midfield pods. One player who can help out in the future may be Moli, who was hammering guys around the ruck in the Wales game. Frizzel could develop to be this guy, and I think both Jacobson and Paps can bring it too.
In the midfield, I hate to say it, but I actually think the weak link is (or was) Mo’unga. We’ve been trying to find ways to hide him, as he tends to give up ground even if he makes his tackles. With him defending in or around the midfield plus a passive line, we can get in huge trouble - that was a key strategy England used all day. I think he has to defend closer to the ruck where he can get more help, and simply put, improve his defense.
I do agree that we were a bit small our wide, but putting back Rieko helps that, although with Dmac back we may get smaller (but more dangerous) at FB towards the end of games.
If we do want size/collisions in midfield, then the argument for Laumape gets stronger, but our two best midfielders are ALB and Jack. I think the secondary problem we had this year is that ALB has been really effective at 13 for the ABs but hardly played 12 for us, and just couldn’t be as effective without a bit more help from SBW or Crotty. His quick feet in traffic get more effective when we can use him a bit wider, so getting that balance right is a key challenge - having a bigger winger or ball running forward to do some of the in-close dummy running or hit-ups may be needed, so that ALB can get to the fringes with Coles and a winger, where he can cause havoc.
I can’t wait for next year.
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@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
I think there’s some truth in this, and we let Tuilagi and the other backs get too much room all day. I think much of that is due to our defensive system, which was very passive, so we made our tackles (mostly) but also gave up ground. In the final, SA got around this by using an accurate rush - Manu hardly saw the ball.
We are a bit over reliant on Cane, Savea, and BBBR to make impact tackles around the ruck and towards midfield pods. One player who can help out in the future may be Moli, who was hammering guys around the ruck in the Wales game. Frizzel could develop to be this guy, and I think both Jacobson and Paps can bring it too.
In the midfield, I hate to say it, but I actually think the weak link is (or was) Mo’unga. We’ve been trying to find ways to hide him, as he tends to give up ground even if he makes his tackles. With him defending in or around the midfield plus a passive line, we can get in huge trouble - that was a key strategy England used all day. I think he has to defend closer to the ruck where he can get more help, and simply put, improve his defense.
I do agree that we were a bit small our wide, but putting back Rieko helps that, although with Dmac back we may get smaller (but more dangerous) at FB towards the end of games.
If we do want size/collisions in midfield, then the argument for Laumape gets stronger, but our two best midfielders are ALB and Jack. I think the secondary problem we had this year is that ALB has been really effective at 13 for the ABs but hardly played 12 for us, and just couldn’t be as effective without a bit more help from SBW or Crotty. His quick feet in traffic get more effective when we can use him a bit wider, so getting that balance right is a key challenge - having a bigger winger or ball running forward to do some of the in-close dummy running or hit-ups may be needed, so that ALB can get to the fringes with Coles and a winger, where he can cause havoc.
I can’t wait for next year.
@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
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@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
I think there’s some truth in this, and we let Tuilagi and the other backs get too much room all day. I think much of that is due to our defensive system, which was very passive, so we made our tackles (mostly) but also gave up ground. In the final, SA got around this by using an accurate rush - Manu hardly saw the ball.
We are a bit over reliant on Cane, Savea, and BBBR to make impact tackles around the ruck and towards midfield pods. One player who can help out in the future may be Moli, who was hammering guys around the ruck in the Wales game. Frizzel could develop to be this guy, and I think both Jacobson and Paps can bring it too.
In the midfield, I hate to say it, but I actually think the weak link is (or was) Mo’unga. We’ve been trying to find ways to hide him, as he tends to give up ground even if he makes his tackles. With him defending in or around the midfield plus a passive line, we can get in huge trouble - that was a key strategy England used all day. I think he has to defend closer to the ruck where he can get more help, and simply put, improve his defense.
I do agree that we were a bit small our wide, but putting back Rieko helps that, although with Dmac back we may get smaller (but more dangerous) at FB towards the end of games.
If we do want size/collisions in midfield, then the argument for Laumape gets stronger, but our two best midfielders are ALB and Jack. I think the secondary problem we had this year is that ALB has been really effective at 13 for the ABs but hardly played 12 for us, and just couldn’t be as effective without a bit more help from SBW or Crotty. His quick feet in traffic get more effective when we can use him a bit wider, so getting that balance right is a key challenge - having a bigger winger or ball running forward to do some of the in-close dummy running or hit-ups may be needed, so that ALB can get to the fringes with Coles and a winger, where he can cause havoc.
I can’t wait for next year.
@gt12 Yeah - it's one of the problems with our two play-maker system. Offensively it's good, but defensively it creates weaknesses.
If you've got a strong defender at fullback, you can move him forward to defend in the first five channel and stick your first five at the back - but if you've got Richie, Beauden (or DMac) there's only marginal gains from shuffling them around.
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@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
On size - you have people like Tuilagi listed at 114 kgs vs someone like ALB listed at 96 kgs - so giving away nearly 20 kgs. And most forwards north of 110kgs - plenty more than 120 kgs.
It's tough to win the collision when you're giving away that much size.When does ALB loose collisions often?
Is this one of those Fern things (like England were apparently always unbeatable) that gets started and then people just start believing it for no good reason?
@Nepia said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
Is this one of those Fern things (like England were apparently always unbeatable) that gets started and then people just start believing it for no good reason?
I just assume that everything on here is wrong, which usually makes me right.
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@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
@taniwharugby said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
Yes - and you really should check your postbox for that Master of Reality refund!
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@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
@taniwharugby said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
which sort of confirms to me that our two best midfielders aren't considered "punchy" enough because they are too light skinned.
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@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
If you're n the back foot, who do you give it to to smash forward and get some front foot ball?
Maybe they should rely on innovative superior skills (and hopefully speed) rather than trying to bash and smash your way through to see some dividends paid.
@Higgins said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
If you're n the back foot, who do you give it to to smash forward and get some front foot ball?
Maybe they should rely on innovative superior skills (and hopefully speed) rather than trying to bash and smash your way through to see some dividends paid.
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@Higgins said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
If you're n the back foot, who do you give it to to smash forward and get some front foot ball?
Maybe they should rely on innovative superior skills (and hopefully speed) rather than trying to bash and smash your way through to see some dividends paid.
@antipodean Exactly right!
Size is a good attribute for a rugby player.
Speed is a good attribute for a rugby player.
Being skillful is a good attribute for a rugby player.
Being smart if a good attribute for a rugby player.If you have a big, fast, skillful and smart rugby player, he's probably going to be a better player than a small, slow, clumsy and stupid player.
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@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
@taniwharugby said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
Laumape looks bigger because he's not that tall. Mo'unga has 5 cm on him.
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@gt12 Yeah - it's one of the problems with our two play-maker system. Offensively it's good, but defensively it creates weaknesses.
If you've got a strong defender at fullback, you can move him forward to defend in the first five channel and stick your first five at the back - but if you've got Richie, Beauden (or DMac) there's only marginal gains from shuffling them around.
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Yeah - it's one of the problems with our two play-maker system. Offensively it's good, but defensively it creates weaknesses.
If you've got a strong defender at fullback, you can move him forward to defend in the first five channel and stick your first five at the back - but if you've got Richie, Beauden (or DMac) there's only marginal gains from shuffling them around.
Sorry who has ever been a strong defender at FB? Not front on anyway. BB is awesome on defence, chasing back, and that is a FB main role. But front on one-on-one, there never has been a great defender in the ABs or most other teams.
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@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
@taniwharugby said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
That’s why I said size/collisions, which is a key part of Laumape’s game - crash ball running is a key skill he brings and can be used well as a dummy runner (how SBW is also often used). ALB on the other hand is better using his quick feet in traffic - that’s not to say he’s small or can’t be the crash runner, just that I don’t like him being used that way - he’s usually better with a little more space.
