2020 All Blacks Squad
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@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
I think there’s some truth in this, and we let Tuilagi and the other backs get too much room all day. I think much of that is due to our defensive system, which was very passive, so we made our tackles (mostly) but also gave up ground. In the final, SA got around this by using an accurate rush - Manu hardly saw the ball.
We are a bit over reliant on Cane, Savea, and BBBR to make impact tackles around the ruck and towards midfield pods. One player who can help out in the future may be Moli, who was hammering guys around the ruck in the Wales game. Frizzel could develop to be this guy, and I think both Jacobson and Paps can bring it too.
In the midfield, I hate to say it, but I actually think the weak link is (or was) Mo’unga. We’ve been trying to find ways to hide him, as he tends to give up ground even if he makes his tackles. With him defending in or around the midfield plus a passive line, we can get in huge trouble - that was a key strategy England used all day. I think he has to defend closer to the ruck where he can get more help, and simply put, improve his defense.
I do agree that we were a bit small our wide, but putting back Rieko helps that, although with Dmac back we may get smaller (but more dangerous) at FB towards the end of games.
If we do want size/collisions in midfield, then the argument for Laumape gets stronger, but our two best midfielders are ALB and Jack. I think the secondary problem we had this year is that ALB has been really effective at 13 for the ABs but hardly played 12 for us, and just couldn’t be as effective without a bit more help from SBW or Crotty. His quick feet in traffic get more effective when we can use him a bit wider, so getting that balance right is a key challenge - having a bigger winger or ball running forward to do some of the in-close dummy running or hit-ups may be needed, so that ALB can get to the fringes with Coles and a winger, where he can cause havoc.
I can’t wait for next year.
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@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
I think there’s some truth in this, and we let Tuilagi and the other backs get too much room all day. I think much of that is due to our defensive system, which was very passive, so we made our tackles (mostly) but also gave up ground. In the final, SA got around this by using an accurate rush - Manu hardly saw the ball.
We are a bit over reliant on Cane, Savea, and BBBR to make impact tackles around the ruck and towards midfield pods. One player who can help out in the future may be Moli, who was hammering guys around the ruck in the Wales game. Frizzel could develop to be this guy, and I think both Jacobson and Paps can bring it too.
In the midfield, I hate to say it, but I actually think the weak link is (or was) Mo’unga. We’ve been trying to find ways to hide him, as he tends to give up ground even if he makes his tackles. With him defending in or around the midfield plus a passive line, we can get in huge trouble - that was a key strategy England used all day. I think he has to defend closer to the ruck where he can get more help, and simply put, improve his defense.
I do agree that we were a bit small our wide, but putting back Rieko helps that, although with Dmac back we may get smaller (but more dangerous) at FB towards the end of games.
If we do want size/collisions in midfield, then the argument for Laumape gets stronger, but our two best midfielders are ALB and Jack. I think the secondary problem we had this year is that ALB has been really effective at 13 for the ABs but hardly played 12 for us, and just couldn’t be as effective without a bit more help from SBW or Crotty. His quick feet in traffic get more effective when we can use him a bit wider, so getting that balance right is a key challenge - having a bigger winger or ball running forward to do some of the in-close dummy running or hit-ups may be needed, so that ALB can get to the fringes with Coles and a winger, where he can cause havoc.
I can’t wait for next year.
@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
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@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
I think there’s some truth in this, and we let Tuilagi and the other backs get too much room all day. I think much of that is due to our defensive system, which was very passive, so we made our tackles (mostly) but also gave up ground. In the final, SA got around this by using an accurate rush - Manu hardly saw the ball.
We are a bit over reliant on Cane, Savea, and BBBR to make impact tackles around the ruck and towards midfield pods. One player who can help out in the future may be Moli, who was hammering guys around the ruck in the Wales game. Frizzel could develop to be this guy, and I think both Jacobson and Paps can bring it too.
In the midfield, I hate to say it, but I actually think the weak link is (or was) Mo’unga. We’ve been trying to find ways to hide him, as he tends to give up ground even if he makes his tackles. With him defending in or around the midfield plus a passive line, we can get in huge trouble - that was a key strategy England used all day. I think he has to defend closer to the ruck where he can get more help, and simply put, improve his defense.
I do agree that we were a bit small our wide, but putting back Rieko helps that, although with Dmac back we may get smaller (but more dangerous) at FB towards the end of games.
If we do want size/collisions in midfield, then the argument for Laumape gets stronger, but our two best midfielders are ALB and Jack. I think the secondary problem we had this year is that ALB has been really effective at 13 for the ABs but hardly played 12 for us, and just couldn’t be as effective without a bit more help from SBW or Crotty. His quick feet in traffic get more effective when we can use him a bit wider, so getting that balance right is a key challenge - having a bigger winger or ball running forward to do some of the in-close dummy running or hit-ups may be needed, so that ALB can get to the fringes with Coles and a winger, where he can cause havoc.
I can’t wait for next year.
@gt12 Yeah - it's one of the problems with our two play-maker system. Offensively it's good, but defensively it creates weaknesses.
If you've got a strong defender at fullback, you can move him forward to defend in the first five channel and stick your first five at the back - but if you've got Richie, Beauden (or DMac) there's only marginal gains from shuffling them around.
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@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
On size - you have people like Tuilagi listed at 114 kgs vs someone like ALB listed at 96 kgs - so giving away nearly 20 kgs. And most forwards north of 110kgs - plenty more than 120 kgs.
It's tough to win the collision when you're giving away that much size.When does ALB loose collisions often?
Is this one of those Fern things (like England were apparently always unbeatable) that gets started and then people just start believing it for no good reason?
@Nepia said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
Is this one of those Fern things (like England were apparently always unbeatable) that gets started and then people just start believing it for no good reason?
I just assume that everything on here is wrong, which usually makes me right.
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@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
@taniwharugby said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
Yes - and you really should check your postbox for that Master of Reality refund!
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@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
@taniwharugby said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
which sort of confirms to me that our two best midfielders aren't considered "punchy" enough because they are too light skinned.
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@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
If you're n the back foot, who do you give it to to smash forward and get some front foot ball?
Maybe they should rely on innovative superior skills (and hopefully speed) rather than trying to bash and smash your way through to see some dividends paid.
@Higgins said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
If you're n the back foot, who do you give it to to smash forward and get some front foot ball?
Maybe they should rely on innovative superior skills (and hopefully speed) rather than trying to bash and smash your way through to see some dividends paid.
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@Higgins said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
If you're n the back foot, who do you give it to to smash forward and get some front foot ball?
Maybe they should rely on innovative superior skills (and hopefully speed) rather than trying to bash and smash your way through to see some dividends paid.
@antipodean Exactly right!
Size is a good attribute for a rugby player.
Speed is a good attribute for a rugby player.
Being skillful is a good attribute for a rugby player.
Being smart if a good attribute for a rugby player.If you have a big, fast, skillful and smart rugby player, he's probably going to be a better player than a small, slow, clumsy and stupid player.
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@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
@taniwharugby said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
Laumape looks bigger because he's not that tall. Mo'unga has 5 cm on him.
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@gt12 Yeah - it's one of the problems with our two play-maker system. Offensively it's good, but defensively it creates weaknesses.
If you've got a strong defender at fullback, you can move him forward to defend in the first five channel and stick your first five at the back - but if you've got Richie, Beauden (or DMac) there's only marginal gains from shuffling them around.
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Yeah - it's one of the problems with our two play-maker system. Offensively it's good, but defensively it creates weaknesses.
If you've got a strong defender at fullback, you can move him forward to defend in the first five channel and stick your first five at the back - but if you've got Richie, Beauden (or DMac) there's only marginal gains from shuffling them around.
Sorry who has ever been a strong defender at FB? Not front on anyway. BB is awesome on defence, chasing back, and that is a FB main role. But front on one-on-one, there never has been a great defender in the ABs or most other teams.
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@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
@taniwharugby said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Laumape is only listed as a kg heavier than ALB...
That’s why I said size/collisions, which is a key part of Laumape’s game - crash ball running is a key skill he brings and can be used well as a dummy runner (how SBW is also often used). ALB on the other hand is better using his quick feet in traffic - that’s not to say he’s small or can’t be the crash runner, just that I don’t like him being used that way - he’s usually better with a little more space.
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@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Yeah - it's one of the problems with our two play-maker system. Offensively it's good, but defensively it creates weaknesses.
If you've got a strong defender at fullback, you can move him forward to defend in the first five channel and stick your first five at the back - but if you've got Richie, Beauden (or DMac) there's only marginal gains from shuffling them around.
Sorry who has ever been a strong defender at FB? Not front on anyway. BB is awesome on defence, chasing back, and that is a FB main role. But front on one-on-one, there never has been a great defender in the ABs or most other teams.
@Machpants said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Yeah - it's one of the problems with our two play-maker system. Offensively it's good, but defensively it creates weaknesses.
If you've got a strong defender at fullback, you can move him forward to defend in the first five channel and stick your first five at the back - but if you've got Richie, Beauden (or DMac) there's only marginal gains from shuffling them around.
Sorry who has ever been a strong defender at FB? Not front on anyway. BB is awesome on defence, chasing back, and that is a FB main role. But front on one-on-one, there never has been a great defender in the ABs or most other teams.
David Havili. The Crusaders often use him to cover for Richie.
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@Machpants said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@gt12 Yeah - it's one of the problems with our two play-maker system. Offensively it's good, but defensively it creates weaknesses.
If you've got a strong defender at fullback, you can move him forward to defend in the first five channel and stick your first five at the back - but if you've got Richie, Beauden (or DMac) there's only marginal gains from shuffling them around.
Sorry who has ever been a strong defender at FB? Not front on anyway. BB is awesome on defence, chasing back, and that is a FB main role. But front on one-on-one, there never has been a great defender in the ABs or most other teams.
David Havili. The Crusaders often use him to cover for Richie.
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@Chris-B Better defender than Richie is not necessarily great defender. BB is better, by a margin
@Machpants We'll differ on that one.
How about Jordie then? Lots of people seem to think his future is in the midfield - it won't be if he's a poor defender.
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@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
I think there’s some truth in this, and we let Tuilagi and the other backs get too much room all day. I think much of that is due to our defensive system, which was very passive, so we made our tackles (mostly) but also gave up ground. In the final, SA got around this by using an accurate rush - Manu hardly saw the ball.
We are a bit over reliant on Cane, Savea, and BBBR to make impact tackles around the ruck and towards midfield pods. One player who can help out in the future may be Moli, who was hammering guys around the ruck in the Wales game. Frizzel could develop to be this guy, and I think both Jacobson and Paps can bring it too.
In the midfield, I hate to say it, but I actually think the weak link is (or was) Mo’unga. We’ve been trying to find ways to hide him, as he tends to give up ground even if he makes his tackles. With him defending in or around the midfield plus a passive line, we can get in huge trouble - that was a key strategy England used all day. I think he has to defend closer to the ruck where he can get more help, and simply put, improve his defense.
I do agree that we were a bit small our wide, but putting back Rieko helps that, although with Dmac back we may get smaller (but more dangerous) at FB towards the end of games.
If we do want size/collisions in midfield, then the argument for Laumape gets stronger, but our two best midfielders are ALB and Jack. I think the secondary problem we had this year is that ALB has been really effective at 13 for the ABs but hardly played 12 for us, and just couldn’t be as effective without a bit more help from SBW or Crotty. His quick feet in traffic get more effective when we can use him a bit wider, so getting that balance right is a key challenge - having a bigger winger or ball running forward to do some of the in-close dummy running or hit-ups may be needed, so that ALB can get to the fringes with Coles and a winger, where he can cause havoc.
I can’t wait for next year.
@gt12 said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
In the midfield, I hate to say it, but I actually think the weak link is (or was) Mo’unga. We’ve been trying to find ways to hide him, as he tends to give up ground even if he makes his tackles. With him defending in or around the midfield plus a passive line, we can get in huge trouble - that was a key strategy England used all day. I think he has to defend closer to the ruck where he can get more help, and simply put, improve his defense.
Agreed. His defence is amazingly passive and McLeod appears to have developed a pattern to hide five-eighths out near the wing. The same thing we used to give the Wallabies shit about when they were doing it with their Tokoroan.
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@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
This is the reason i think Frank Bunce is the best centre i ever saw. It didn't matter what the ball was, or what the rest of the team was doing, Frank was almost a guarantee to generate quick, front-foot ball. A fucking hero.
He also liked to absolutely level blokes in tackles. I love Frank.
@mariner4life said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
This is the reason i think Frank Bunce is the best centre i ever saw. It didn't matter what the ball was, or what the rest of the team was doing, Frank was almost a guarantee to generate quick, front-foot ball. A fucking hero.
He also liked to absolutely level blokes in tackles. I love Frank.
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@mariner4life said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
This is the reason i think Frank Bunce is the best centre i ever saw. It didn't matter what the ball was, or what the rest of the team was doing, Frank was almost a guarantee to generate quick, front-foot ball. A fucking hero.
He also liked to absolutely level blokes in tackles. I love Frank.
@nzzp said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@mariner4life said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
This is the reason i think Frank Bunce is the best centre i ever saw. It didn't matter what the ball was, or what the rest of the team was doing, Frank was almost a guarantee to generate quick, front-foot ball. A fucking hero.
He also liked to absolutely level blokes in tackles. I love Frank.
I love that photo. Everyone is either focused on Frank or where Frank will end up bar one person, who looks like he's had enough and running away
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@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
Yeah because our most dominant hitter wasn't on the bloody field!
I think it was a bad day at the office, the Boks backs outside of De Allende (who's roughly the same size as Boris Goodhue) and Pollard for a 10 aren't exactly huge and they nicely touched up the supposedly unbeatable England.
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@nzzp said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@mariner4life said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Chris-B said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Nepia How many did he win against England?
From what I saw England were mainly able to plough forward and our dominant hits were few and far between.
I'm not pointing the finger at ALB - but, I am saying that collectively, the size of our backs division was a problem.
This is the reason i think Frank Bunce is the best centre i ever saw. It didn't matter what the ball was, or what the rest of the team was doing, Frank was almost a guarantee to generate quick, front-foot ball. A fucking hero.
He also liked to absolutely level blokes in tackles. I love Frank.
I love that photo. Everyone is either focused on Frank or where Frank will end up bar one person, who looks like he's had enough and running away
