All Black Coach - Ian Foster
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@junior said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I should say, the fact that it was a 100-test veteran doing something so stupid, when faced with a potentially match-defining moment, is scarcely believable. This is why he should be nowhere near the captaincy, whoever the new coach may be.
Yep. Which I why i don't blame Read even though I think his captaincy goes to pieces under pressure - something either he or the TWM should have sorted out long before RWC 2019. He can't be expected to do it on his own.
Do wonder if Sam Cane will get the nod. He gets that steely look in his eyes rather than Read's wild-eyed look and doesn't give away too many dumb penalties considering his playing position
@Victor-Meldrew said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
Do wonder if Sam Cane will get the nod. He gets that steely look in his eyes rather than Read's wild-eyed look and doesn't give away too many dumb penalties considering his playing position
If we are picking the skipper on their eyes the power move is to get Richard Kahui back from Japan... or so the wife says.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
Do wonder if Sam Cane will get the nod. He gets that steely look in his eyes rather than Read's wild-eyed look and doesn't give away too many dumb penalties considering his playing position
If we are picking the skipper on their eyes the power move is to get Richard Kahui back from Japan... or so the wife says.
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I kind of agree, terrible judgement from Whitelock, but it was so out of character for him - and he's played plenty of important games including MOTM efforts in the last world cup knockouts, that it seems a bit harsh to say 'not captaincy material' based on one incident. Certainly the Crusaders have performed far better with him as captain than with Read.
You need more than Sam Cane's steely look in the eyes, you need to tell people what to do, and what not to do, and keep it simple under pressure.
As for whipping Ireland, the only impact that had was on over-confidence. We weren't tired from that game - it was never in doubt, we were able to sub early, and we had already missed the Italy game. And powder? England didn't adjust their tactics against us at the last minute after viewing the Irish game. We changed ours (poorly), dropped Cane, and we showed up without the right mindset - got smashed early and never recovered momentum, and the guys lost composure - that situation not helped by picking people like Jordie over B Smith, no Crotty etc. -
Richard Kahui - what a loss he was.
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@Victor-Meldrew really? To be honest I'd pretty much forgotten about him. Filled a role extremely well in 2011 but I'd hardly say we've missed him.
Thought he had big potential at 11-13-14.
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I kind of agree, terrible judgement from Whitelock, but it was so out of character for him - and he's played plenty of important games including MOTM efforts in the last world cup knockouts, that it seems a bit harsh to say 'not captaincy material' based on one incident. Certainly the Crusaders have performed far better with him as captain than with Read.
You need more than Sam Cane's steely look in the eyes, you need to tell people what to do, and what not to do, and keep it simple under pressure.
As for whipping Ireland, the only impact that had was on over-confidence. We weren't tired from that game - it was never in doubt, we were able to sub early, and we had already missed the Italy game. And powder? England didn't adjust their tactics against us at the last minute after viewing the Irish game. We changed ours (poorly), dropped Cane, and we showed up without the right mindset - got smashed early and never recovered momentum, and the guys lost composure - that situation not helped by picking people like Jordie over B Smith, no Crotty etc.@reprobate said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
You need more than Sam Cane's steely look in the eyes, you need to tell people what to do, and what not to do, and keep it simple under pressure.
Agreed. The "steely eyes" comment was an allusion to calmness under pressure.
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Thought he had big potential at 11-13-14.
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Thought he had big potential at 11-13-14.
@Victor-Meldrew said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
Thought he had big potential at 11-13-14.
He fulfilled it!
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@Victor-Meldrew Kahui broke more often than Crotty/SBW. That crook shoulder killed his ABs and SR career.
@Stargazer said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Victor-Meldrew Kahui broke more often than Crotty/SBW. That crook shoulder killed his ABs and SR career.
His glass shoulder certainly did.
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@reprobate said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
You need more than Sam Cane's steely look in the eyes, you need to tell people what to do, and what not to do, and keep it simple under pressure.
Agreed. The "steely eyes" comment was an allusion to calmness under pressure.
@Victor-Meldrew said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@reprobate said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
You need more than Sam Cane's steely look in the eyes, you need to tell people what to do, and what not to do, and keep it simple under pressure.
Agreed. The "steely eyes" comment was an allusion to calmness under pressure.
Cane is a good choice
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I kind of agree, terrible judgement from Whitelock, but it was so out of character for him - and he's played plenty of important games including MOTM efforts in the last world cup knockouts, that it seems a bit harsh to say 'not captaincy material' based on one incident. Certainly the Crusaders have performed far better with him as captain than with Read.
You need more than Sam Cane's steely look in the eyes, you need to tell people what to do, and what not to do, and keep it simple under pressure.
As for whipping Ireland, the only impact that had was on over-confidence. We weren't tired from that game - it was never in doubt, we were able to sub early, and we had already missed the Italy game. And powder? England didn't adjust their tactics against us at the last minute after viewing the Irish game. We changed ours (poorly), dropped Cane, and we showed up without the right mindset - got smashed early and never recovered momentum, and the guys lost composure - that situation not helped by picking people like Jordie over B Smith, no Crotty etc.@reprobate On the money, I think.
In hindsight, there's a lot of parallels to some of our previous losses in, especially, 2003 - but also 2007.
I think Mexted's psychic energy is amplified by pressure in RWC matches - so one thing you don't want to do is fall behind and especially behind by more than 7 points. I guess there's a few stirring comebacks in RWC history - France in 1999 for one (and 2007 for another) - but, I'm guessing that most teams that get ahead by more than 7 points in a RWC knockout match, win it.
So parallels with Tuilagi's early try and Mortlock's interception.
A parallel with 2007 is the inexperience we ended up with on the park at the death (Leonard/McAlister/Toeava). The thing that surprised me most about this campaign, was Hansen's willingness to shed his experienced old hands - because he'd been beating the "experience wins you the big games" drum for pretty much his entire (post-2007) tenure. I remember saying ,probably more than 18 months ago, that Hansen wouldn't supplant Beaudy with Richie this close to a RWC. But, actually, I think that was the right decision - Bea'unga was the point of difference that could have won us the Cup.
What probably wasn't the right decision was shedding all the experience around them. Even though, individually, each of the man-for-man decisions probably made sense - collectively, we ended up with too few wise heads when we needed them.
That's the question I'd really like to have seen Hansen answer - why he went away from that experience mantra.
And, as footnote, I think the other thing he "confused" himself on was the selection at 6. All along, he really wanted to play a Kaino/McCaw/Read style of loose trio - even early in the RC he was still saying we wouldn't see Ardie and Sam starting together as flankers. In the end he pretty much had to bite that bullet - but, I suspect at least in part the selection of Scott Barrett at 6 was influenced by his lack of belief in playing two opensides.
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@reprobate On the money, I think.
In hindsight, there's a lot of parallels to some of our previous losses in, especially, 2003 - but also 2007.
I think Mexted's psychic energy is amplified by pressure in RWC matches - so one thing you don't want to do is fall behind and especially behind by more than 7 points. I guess there's a few stirring comebacks in RWC history - France in 1999 for one (and 2007 for another) - but, I'm guessing that most teams that get ahead by more than 7 points in a RWC knockout match, win it.
So parallels with Tuilagi's early try and Mortlock's interception.
A parallel with 2007 is the inexperience we ended up with on the park at the death (Leonard/McAlister/Toeava). The thing that surprised me most about this campaign, was Hansen's willingness to shed his experienced old hands - because he'd been beating the "experience wins you the big games" drum for pretty much his entire (post-2007) tenure. I remember saying ,probably more than 18 months ago, that Hansen wouldn't supplant Beaudy with Richie this close to a RWC. But, actually, I think that was the right decision - Bea'unga was the point of difference that could have won us the Cup.
What probably wasn't the right decision was shedding all the experience around them. Even though, individually, each of the man-for-man decisions probably made sense - collectively, we ended up with too few wise heads when we needed them.
That's the question I'd really like to have seen Hansen answer - why he went away from that experience mantra.
And, as footnote, I think the other thing he "confused" himself on was the selection at 6. All along, he really wanted to play a Kaino/McCaw/Read style of loose trio - even early in the RC he was still saying we wouldn't see Ardie and Sam starting together as flankers. In the end he pretty much had to bite that bullet - but, I suspect at least in part the selection of Scott Barrett at 6 was influenced by his lack of belief in playing two opensides.
@Chris-B
I think that’s pretty much bang on. For me, the selection at 3 (correct but probably happened too late), 6 (incorrect strategy changing choice for no good reason), midfield (probably incorrect - ALB had been amaze balls at 13), and wing/fb/JB (incorrect - almost no experience at all) were all examples of the coaches going back on a WC winning strategy. Switch a few of those with more experience and we’d suddenly be much better equipped to deal with finals footy.
I’m still shocked that the selectors haven’t been givien a harder time for that.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@junior said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
This mean that we had to play a "final" at the QF stage, which left us with little left for the SF against England.
I'm convinced that had the players kept their cool a la the 2015 lot, we'd have nicked that game.
Not blaming Read for the loss as he gives 110%, but the leadership in that game from him and the other senior players was sub-standard
Yes, true. There was a point after Ardie's try where momentum was in the balance. Unfortunately, Jordie fucked the kick off and we conceded a quick 3, handing the momentum back to them. Even then, we had the chance to plug the corner, score a converted try from the ensuing lineout and get within 3 with just over 10 mins to play. From there, momentum is all ours and the pressure is on England not lose their nerves and bottle it. Frustratingly, a lack of composure caused Whitelock to do something stupid, which, again, let England off the hook and handed momentum back to them.
Presented with those opportunities, I am absolutely certain the 2015 team would have wrangled a 7-10 point win.
EDIT - I should say, the fact that it was a 100-test veteran doing something so stupid, when faced with a potentially match-defining moment, is scarcely believable. This is why he should be nowhere near the captaincy, whoever the new coach may be.
@junior said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
EDIT - I should say, the fact that it was a 100-test veteran doing something so stupid, when faced with a potentially match-defining moment, is scarcely believable. This is why he should be nowhere near the captaincy, whoever the new coach may be.
I'm more concerned about the penalty reversal.
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@Chris-B
I think that’s pretty much bang on. For me, the selection at 3 (correct but probably happened too late), 6 (incorrect strategy changing choice for no good reason), midfield (probably incorrect - ALB had been amaze balls at 13), and wing/fb/JB (incorrect - almost no experience at all) were all examples of the coaches going back on a WC winning strategy. Switch a few of those with more experience and we’d suddenly be much better equipped to deal with finals footy.
I’m still shocked that the selectors haven’t been givien a harder time for that.
@gt12 Pretty much those positions.
With hindsight, I think Crotty and ALB in the midfield is the most crucial one.
Cane and Ardie on the flanks would have also left Scott Barrett to come off the bench.
I think they should have taken Big Karl and paired him and Ofa on the bench - leaving Ofa as the tighthead sub.
Ben Smith at a minimum instead of Jordie, but perhaps instead of Sevu Reece. Maybe Rieko ahead of Bridge - circumstances sort of conspired against Rieko getting opportunities to prove he should be there.
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@gt12 Pretty much those positions.
With hindsight, I think Crotty and ALB in the midfield is the most crucial one.
Cane and Ardie on the flanks would have also left Scott Barrett to come off the bench.
I think they should have taken Big Karl and paired him and Ofa on the bench - leaving Ofa as the tighthead sub.
Ben Smith at a minimum instead of Jordie, but perhaps instead of Sevu Reece. Maybe Rieko ahead of Bridge - circumstances sort of conspired against Rieko getting opportunities to prove he should be there.
@Chris-B given how well they played v SA too, they were who I thought they'd be looking at for Ireland and England...that said, Goodhue was probably the best AB v England.
Agree with your above, for years Hansen had always plumped for experience over form, then this year, he changed things up....
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@gt12 Pretty much those positions.
With hindsight, I think Crotty and ALB in the midfield is the most crucial one.
Cane and Ardie on the flanks would have also left Scott Barrett to come off the bench.
I think they should have taken Big Karl and paired him and Ofa on the bench - leaving Ofa as the tighthead sub.
Ben Smith at a minimum instead of Jordie, but perhaps instead of Sevu Reece. Maybe Rieko ahead of Bridge - circumstances sort of conspired against Rieko getting opportunities to prove he should be there.
@Chris-B said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@gt12 Pretty much those positions.
With hindsight, I think Crotty and ALB in the midfield is the most crucial one.
Cane and Ardie on the flanks would have also left Scott Barrett to come off the bench.
I think they should have taken Big Karl and paired him and Ofa on the bench - leaving Ofa as the tighthead sub.
Ben Smith at a minimum instead of Jordie, but perhaps instead of Sevu Reece. Maybe Rieko ahead of Bridge - circumstances sort of conspired against Rieko getting opportunities to prove he should be there.
In hindsight I can’t disagree with any of those - Goodhue would be most unlucky, but he had been during the WC, so all that switching led to trouble, that’s a bit 2007ish as we should have had that combo playing together more and I think they just wanted the two best players, rather than the best combo (a little 1999ish too then).
On the front row, I agree. It’s worth noting that Moli was good when he got a chance - however he was never going to be used in a big game, so it should have been Karl in the squad which would have given us a choice between Ofa, Karl, and Angus. I think they wanted Angus’ workrate late in the game but we got a bit less experienced and had others in positions they just aren’t as good at (Ofa).
I think it was @dogmeat who said that Bridge was (supposedly) nailed on about 12 months out - but we never got to see him with Rieko or tried anywhere except on the left, so they had to see that problem arising.
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@Chris-B said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@gt12 Pretty much those positions.
With hindsight, I think Crotty and ALB in the midfield is the most crucial one.
Cane and Ardie on the flanks would have also left Scott Barrett to come off the bench.
I think they should have taken Big Karl and paired him and Ofa on the bench - leaving Ofa as the tighthead sub.
Ben Smith at a minimum instead of Jordie, but perhaps instead of Sevu Reece. Maybe Rieko ahead of Bridge - circumstances sort of conspired against Rieko getting opportunities to prove he should be there.
In hindsight I can’t disagree with any of those - Goodhue would be most unlucky, but he had been during the WC, so all that switching led to trouble, that’s a bit 2007ish as we should have had that combo playing together more and I think they just wanted the two best players, rather than the best combo (a little 1999ish too then).
On the front row, I agree. It’s worth noting that Moli was good when he got a chance - however he was never going to be used in a big game, so it should have been Karl in the squad which would have given us a choice between Ofa, Karl, and Angus. I think they wanted Angus’ workrate late in the game but we got a bit less experienced and had others in positions they just aren’t as good at (Ofa).
I think it was @dogmeat who said that Bridge was (supposedly) nailed on about 12 months out - but we never got to see him with Rieko or tried anywhere except on the left, so they had to see that problem arising.
@gt12 If that was the case, then after Bridge's outstanding 40 minutes vs Japan, Hansen probably should've phoned home and said we need to take this guy to Europe as an extra.
I also recall being pretty surprised that they flew George to Buenos Aires for the first test of the year, but ended up playing Jordie (on the left wing) with Sevu on the right and Ennor on the bench.
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@reprobate On the money, I think.
In hindsight, there's a lot of parallels to some of our previous losses in, especially, 2003 - but also 2007.
I think Mexted's psychic energy is amplified by pressure in RWC matches - so one thing you don't want to do is fall behind and especially behind by more than 7 points. I guess there's a few stirring comebacks in RWC history - France in 1999 for one (and 2007 for another) - but, I'm guessing that most teams that get ahead by more than 7 points in a RWC knockout match, win it.
So parallels with Tuilagi's early try and Mortlock's interception.
A parallel with 2007 is the inexperience we ended up with on the park at the death (Leonard/McAlister/Toeava). The thing that surprised me most about this campaign, was Hansen's willingness to shed his experienced old hands - because he'd been beating the "experience wins you the big games" drum for pretty much his entire (post-2007) tenure. I remember saying ,probably more than 18 months ago, that Hansen wouldn't supplant Beaudy with Richie this close to a RWC. But, actually, I think that was the right decision - Bea'unga was the point of difference that could have won us the Cup.
What probably wasn't the right decision was shedding all the experience around them. Even though, individually, each of the man-for-man decisions probably made sense - collectively, we ended up with too few wise heads when we needed them.
That's the question I'd really like to have seen Hansen answer - why he went away from that experience mantra.
And, as footnote, I think the other thing he "confused" himself on was the selection at 6. All along, he really wanted to play a Kaino/McCaw/Read style of loose trio - even early in the RC he was still saying we wouldn't see Ardie and Sam starting together as flankers. In the end he pretty much had to bite that bullet - but, I suspect at least in part the selection of Scott Barrett at 6 was influenced by his lack of belief in playing two opensides.
@Chris-B said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
lack of belief in playing two opensides
so he picks 3 locks and then plays a wide game plan
the fuck is that?
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@Wurzel said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
So the good oil is that Fozzie has the job with Razor as assistant. It's been made clear to Razor that turning down the gig as Ian's assistant would damage future aspirations.
NZR know they can't sell Fozzie to the public without a popular figure like Robertson in his camp.
For how many years? If it's only two years, and then Robertson taking over, that might not be the worst idea.
@Stargazer said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Wurzel said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
So the good oil is that Fozzie has the job with Razor as assistant. It's been made clear to Razor that turning down the gig as Ian's assistant would damage future aspirations.
NZR know they can't sell Fozzie to the public without a popular figure like Robertson in his camp.
For how many years? If it's only two years, and then Robertson taking over, that might not be the worst idea.
Review after two years would make sense. If results there Foster gets to stay. If not, Razor moves up having had a chance to assimilate the set up.
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I kind of agree, terrible judgement from Whitelock, but it was so out of character for him - and he's played plenty of important games including MOTM efforts in the last world cup knockouts, that it seems a bit harsh to say 'not captaincy material' based on one incident. Certainly the Crusaders have performed far better with him as captain than with Read.
You need more than Sam Cane's steely look in the eyes, you need to tell people what to do, and what not to do, and keep it simple under pressure.
As for whipping Ireland, the only impact that had was on over-confidence. We weren't tired from that game - it was never in doubt, we were able to sub early, and we had already missed the Italy game. And powder? England didn't adjust their tactics against us at the last minute after viewing the Irish game. We changed ours (poorly), dropped Cane, and we showed up without the right mindset - got smashed early and never recovered momentum, and the guys lost composure - that situation not helped by picking people like Jordie over B Smith, no Crotty etc.@reprobate said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I kind of agree, terrible judgement from Whitelock, but it was so out of character for him - and he's played plenty of important games including MOTM efforts in the last world cup knockouts, that it seems a bit harsh to say 'not captaincy material' based on one incident. Certainly the Crusaders have performed far better with him as captain than with Read.
You need more than Sam Cane's steely look in the eyes, you need to tell people what to do, and what not to do, and keep it simple under pressure.
As for whipping Ireland, the only impact that had was on over-confidence. We weren't tired from that game - it was never in doubt, we were able to sub early, and we had already missed the Italy game. And powder? England didn't adjust their tactics against us at the last minute after viewing the Irish game. We changed ours (poorly), dropped Cane, and we showed up without the right mindset - got smashed early and never recovered momentum, and the guys lost composure - that situation not helped by picking people like Jordie over B Smith, no Crotty etc.England had been planning for AB semi. Bringing Ford in worked fantastically for them. I think they correctly picked we'd be aiming to go wide to beat rush. Contrast with Boks in Final.
I think we did change things a bit, but under pressure players reverted to what they'd been practising for last month.
