AB Captain
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@shark said in AB Captain:
@Crucial said in AB Captain:
@antipodean said in AB Captain:
@shark said in AB Captain:
I've never been a fan of the Cane appointment. Completely uninspiring choice and Savea should be the starting openside flanker.
Is that bait or humour? I forget which thread i'm in.
One of the big contributing factors in last year's failures was a lack of dominant tackling. Made even more puzzling by Cane's omission in the semi.
2019
draw v SA - Cane didn't play
loss v Aus - Cane subbed after 50 minutes with Ardie remaining on
loss to England -Cane played the second half with Ardie at 7Yes we're always hearing about Cane's scary, scary tackling...umm...
Actually we do hear about him being one of the hardest hitters out there from those he tackles.
Ardie is a top player. Great fighting on his feet and more athletic than Cane but certainly isn’t a hard tackler.
If we find a 6 and 8 that start sitting people down then your argument has more validity -
@Toddy said in AB Captain:
@Crucial like Ioane, Sotutu, Robinson, Papalii, Frizzel etc.
None of which have proven to do that at top level (yet)
@Crucial said in AB Captain:
@Toddy said in AB Captain:
@Crucial like Ioane, Sotutu, Robinson, Papalii, Frizzel etc.
None of which have proven to do that at top level (yet)
Disagree.
I think SRA is such a high level that if you dominate there, you are likely to do it in tests. The level of rugby pressure and physicality has been off the charts this year, and it exposes weaknesses really quickly.
So, in previous years I'd agree, but now I think that it's way more likely those folk will slide into Tests with no surprises
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So months after demonstrating a lack of physicality, the answer for some of you is to pick a better blindside so the failed RWC semifinal openside flanker can continue to start..?
Ardie's not the best 7, nor the best 6 and certainly not 8. He is however an excellent combination which is why he should be on the bench.
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So months after demonstrating a lack of physicality, the answer for some of you is to pick a better blindside so the failed RWC semifinal openside flanker can continue to start..?
Ardie's not the best 7, nor the best 6 and certainly not 8. He is however an excellent combination which is why he should be on the bench.
@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker because he's supposedly a dominant tackler? Who cares that he has hands like feet and his only link play is on the golf course?
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@Crucial said in AB Captain:
@Toddy said in AB Captain:
@Crucial like Ioane, Sotutu, Robinson, Papalii, Frizzel etc.
None of which have proven to do that at top level (yet)
Disagree.
I think SRA is such a high level that if you dominate there, you are likely to do it in tests. The level of rugby pressure and physicality has been off the charts this year, and it exposes weaknesses really quickly.
So, in previous years I'd agree, but now I think that it's way more likely those folk will slide into Tests with no surprises
@nzzp said in AB Captain:
I think SRA is such a high level that if you dominate there, you are likely to do it in tests
that is a hugely arrogant take on the current status of rugby. Our teams aren't that fucking good. There are still a lot of players who are no more than good running around.
We have a lot of very promising players. Until i see them operating at the 65 minute mark of a tight test at Twickenham or JoBurg I'll reserve judgement.
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@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker because he's supposedly a dominant tackler? Who cares that he has hands like feet and his only link play is on the golf course?
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker because he's supposedly a dominant tackler? Who cares that he has hands like feet and his only link play is on the golf course?
this is a fresh and interesting angle for you.
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@nzzp said in AB Captain:
I think SRA is such a high level that if you dominate there, you are likely to do it in tests
that is a hugely arrogant take on the current status of rugby. Our teams aren't that fucking good. There are still a lot of players who are no more than good running around.
We have a lot of very promising players. Until i see them operating at the 65 minute mark of a tight test at Twickenham or JoBurg I'll reserve judgement.
@mariner4life really? Have you watched much? I think it's at old Super 12 level, where if you could shine there, you easily made the step up.
The players have been talking about this as well, it's taking days to physically get over the games. No easy games, four weeks in a row, knockout intensity each week. If that doesn't let selectors see who shines, I don't know what does.
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@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker because he's supposedly a dominant tackler? Who cares that he has hands like feet and his only link play is on the golf course?
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker
No, I've quite clearly said I want Cane. Ardie's not even second best.
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@mariner4life really? Have you watched much? I think it's at old Super 12 level, where if you could shine there, you easily made the step up.
The players have been talking about this as well, it's taking days to physically get over the games. No easy games, four weeks in a row, knockout intensity each week. If that doesn't let selectors see who shines, I don't know what does.
@nzzp said in AB Captain:
@mariner4life really? Have you watched much? I think it's at old Super 12 level, where if you could shine there, you easily made the step up.
The players have been talking about this as well, it's taking days to physically get over the games. No easy games, four weeks in a row, knockout intensity each week. If that doesn't let selectors see who shines, I don't know what does.
it absolutely does give you a pretty good gauge. But it's only a gauge. How many players have shone at Super level and never stepped it up at test level?
Top level test rugby is a different game again to even these games. It's brutal trench warfare at the moment.
And when compared to the days of Super Rugby, there are better test teams out there than there were then, international depth and quality is far higher.
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how many WC's did we win during Super 12?
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@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker
No, I've quite clearly said I want Cane. Ardie's not even second best.
@antipodean said in AB Captain:
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker
No, I've quite clearly said I want Cane. Ardie's not even second best.
Yes, so you have quite clearly said you want the #2.
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@antipodean said in AB Captain:
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker
No, I've quite clearly said I want Cane. Ardie's not even second best.
Yes, so you have quite clearly said you want the #2.
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean said in AB Captain:
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker
No, I've quite clearly said I want Cane. Ardie's not even second best.
Yes, so you have quite clearly said you want the #2.
Let's try this a different way. Instead of relying on mere assertion; why do you think Ardie is a better Test level openside flanker?
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@mariner4life really? Have you watched much? I think it's at old Super 12 level, where if you could shine there, you easily made the step up.
The players have been talking about this as well, it's taking days to physically get over the games. No easy games, four weeks in a row, knockout intensity each week. If that doesn't let selectors see who shines, I don't know what does.
@nzzp said in AB Captain:
@mariner4life really? Have you watched much? I think it's at old Super 12 level, where if you could shine there, you easily made the step up.
The players have been talking about this as well, it's taking days to physically get over the games. No easy games, four weeks in a row, knockout intensity each week. If that doesn't let selectors see who shines, I don't know what does.
There's no way it's at that level now. And the players have no way of comparing it either. But we can clear as day on paper see the difference in squad depth and its a paddling pool compared to the dive pool we had 10+ years ago.
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So months after demonstrating a lack of physicality, the answer for some of you is to pick a better blindside so the failed RWC semifinal openside flanker can continue to start..?
Ardie's not the best 7, nor the best 6 and certainly not 8. He is however an excellent combination which is why he should be on the bench.
@antipodean said in AB Captain:
So months after demonstrating a lack of physicality, the answer for some of you is to pick a better blindside so the failed RWC semifinal openside flanker can continue to start..?
Ardie's not the best 7, nor the best 6 and certainly not 8. He is however an excellent combination which is why he should be on the bench.
I would have no problem with a fit Ardie coming on with half an hour to go , sprinting around, running amok.
I think the bench has become such an important weapon , its a credit to him not an insult , that he could potentially do it better than anyone else.
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@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean said in AB Captain:
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker
No, I've quite clearly said I want Cane. Ardie's not even second best.
Yes, so you have quite clearly said you want the #2.
Let's try this a different way. Instead of relying on mere assertion; why do you think Ardie is a better Test level openside flanker?
@antipodean said in AB Captain:
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean said in AB Captain:
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker
No, I've quite clearly said I want Cane. Ardie's not even second best.
Yes, so you have quite clearly said you want the #2.
Let's try this a different way. Instead of relying on mere assertion; why do you think Ardie is a better Test level openside flanker?
The superior all-round game is a good start.
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@antipodean said in AB Captain:
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean said in AB Captain:
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker
No, I've quite clearly said I want Cane. Ardie's not even second best.
Yes, so you have quite clearly said you want the #2.
Let's try this a different way. Instead of relying on mere assertion; why do you think Ardie is a better Test level openside flanker?
The superior all-round game is a good start.
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean said in AB Captain:
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean said in AB Captain:
@shark said in AB Captain:
@antipodean And you'd prefer to select the second best openside flanker
No, I've quite clearly said I want Cane. Ardie's not even second best.
Yes, so you have quite clearly said you want the #2.
Let's try this a different way. Instead of relying on mere assertion; why do you think Ardie is a better Test level openside flanker?
The superior all-round game is a good start.
So I go back to my original point. At each position he isn't the standout performer. So pick those players first. The best 7, the best 6 and the best 8 to start with.
In the modern game, defences are so well organised and difficult to break down that if teams have no success in the first few phases they're kicking the ball away. What better way to secure possession than have defenders that make their tackles and do so in a dominant manner.
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Ardie is no slouch in defence, though he's not at Cane's standard, and has been a standout performer in dominant tackles so far in SRA. Picking Cane as the starting 7 means the rest of the forward pack has to be balanced with the fact that he is basically Owen Franks with ball in hand. Getting over the gainline is an area the All Blacks have struggled with over the last few years and Cane is a big part of that problem. The gainline issue may be resolved by picking Patty T and either/both Ioane and Sotutu but picking those players also shores up the defence....
Picking Ardie or Cane requires the rest of the loose forwards/forwards to be balanced out as neither are the full package. I don't have a problem with either starting and I think it's more important that the 6 & 8 are sorted for the long term than worrying about the position we're actually strong in.
I'll be disappointed if we shoehorn in both players into the starting 15 as I don't think either of them are decent options for 6 or 8 other than as injury cover.
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Ardie is no slouch in defence, though he's not at Cane's standard, and has been a standout performer in dominant tackles so far in SRA. Picking Cane as the starting 7 means the rest of the forward pack has to be balanced with the fact that he is basically Owen Franks with ball in hand. Getting over the gainline is an area the All Blacks have struggled with over the last few years and Cane is a big part of that problem. The gainline issue may be resolved by picking Patty T and either/both Ioane and Sotutu but picking those players also shores up the defence....
Picking Ardie or Cane requires the rest of the loose forwards/forwards to be balanced out as neither are the full package. I don't have a problem with either starting and I think it's more important that the 6 & 8 are sorted for the long term than worrying about the position we're actually strong in.
I'll be disappointed if we shoehorn in both players into the starting 15 as I don't think either of them are decent options for 6 or 8 other than as injury cover.
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@Toddy balance is important and based on how they play and my 2 cents, I reckon the below combos would work best.
Ioane, Savea, Sotutu
Frizell, Cane, Sotutu@ACT-Crusader said in AB Captain:
@Toddy balance is important and based on how they play and my 2 cents, I reckon the below combos would work best.
Ioane, Savea, Sotutu
Frizell, Cane, SotutuYou might be onto something there , and if correct , that is bad news for Akira , for obvious reasons Cane is starting
