The Cane vs Savea Debate
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Tbh, I'm not convinced by either of them at 7; it's more that - at the moment - we're lacking a better option.
@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Tbh, I'm not convinced by either of them at 7; it's more that - at the moment - we're lacking a better option.
I think there are some decent options there that would do well. Not enough to force their way in if Sam and Ardie are fit but if our hand was forced I wouldn’t hesitate in giving Boshier a crack.
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@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Tbh, I'm not convinced by either of them at 7; it's more that - at the moment - we're lacking a better option.
I think there are some decent options there that would do well. Not enough to force their way in if Sam and Ardie are fit but if our hand was forced I wouldn’t hesitate in giving Boshier a crack.
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@Crucial With "better option", I basically mean a McCaw level option. I haven't seen him, yet.
But yeah, for the future, I'd currently also look at Boshier, Papali'i and possibly Kirifi.
@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Crucial With "better option", I basically mean a McCaw level option. I haven't seen him, yet.
But yeah, for the future, I'd currently also look at Boshier, Papali'i and possibly Kirifi.
They don't turn up all that often.
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It's always a funny debate. I like them both. Savea runs hard and has pace, Cane is a bit more technical and is better defensively.
I think people who watch rugby a bit more casually see Ardie run hard and think he's automatically better. I see people making the argument on Facebook all the time and if anyone disagrees they spam clown emojis and think they won the argument.
I don't think Cane has ever not played well in the black jersey, same with Ardie.
However, one thing Cane has over Ardie is his defensive work. We lack the physical presence when he isn't on the field e.g. RWC semi final.
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It's always a funny debate. I like them both. Savea runs hard and has pace, Cane is a bit more technical and is better defensively.
I think people who watch rugby a bit more casually see Ardie run hard and think he's automatically better. I see people making the argument on Facebook all the time and if anyone disagrees they spam clown emojis and think they won the argument.
I don't think Cane has ever not played well in the black jersey, same with Ardie.
However, one thing Cane has over Ardie is his defensive work. We lack the physical presence when he isn't on the field e.g. RWC semi final.
@Yeetyaah Just as you claim that Cane is better on defence, you can claim Ardie is better on attack. We only lacked a certain physicality in the backrow when Ardie was playing at 7 instead of Cane, because we didn't have a hard-hitting 6. We won't miss it as much if all the promise of someone like Cullen Grace comes to fruition. Add a good no. 8, and it won't matter much.
Fingers crossed our options increase over the next few years.
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@shark starting an anti Chiefs player thread ... who could have imagined this?
The first 20 minutes of the England semi is why Cane is Fosters captain.
TBH, I don't think Ardie was nearly as good this year as he was in the previous two years (and Cane took a while to get back up to speed) but I'd definitely include him as the impact loosie to come on and cause havoc. Essentially back to his role he performed before his form got awesome and Cane was out through head/injury.
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Has anyone seen Ardie play well at openside this year? Can't even nail down the spot for the Hurricanes.
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Has anyone seen Ardie play well at openside this year? Can't even nail down the spot for the Hurricanes.
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So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
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This gets pretty heated at times. There was a thread not long ago which evolved (descended?) largely into a Cane v Savea Debate.
I'm 100% a Savea fan at 7.Chiefs fans love to dismiss this as nothing more than anti-Chiefery, but it certainly isn't. I think now that we have an option at 8 in Sotutu and others at 6 in Frizzel and Ioane, there is more heat on Cane as Savea may not need to be the fix-all elsewhere in the trio.
Foster's boy may not be skipper for long as this side evolves, I reckon.
Mark Hinton makes the point this morning:
The loose trio
This is where it gets really interesting. Is there anyone who doesn’t think Ardie Savea is the best No 7 in New Zealand? Yet Sam Cane is the captain and will play, presumably, at openside. -
@Yeetyaah Just as you claim that Cane is better on defence, you can claim Ardie is better on attack. We only lacked a certain physicality in the backrow when Ardie was playing at 7 instead of Cane, because we didn't have a hard-hitting 6. We won't miss it as much if all the promise of someone like Cullen Grace comes to fruition. Add a good no. 8, and it won't matter much.
Fingers crossed our options increase over the next few years.
@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Yeetyaah Just as you claim that Cane is better on defence, you can claim Ardie is better on attack. We only lacked a certain physicality in the backrow when Ardie was playing at 7 instead of Cane, because we didn't have a hard-hitting 6. We won't miss it as much if all the promise of someone like Cullen Grace comes to fruition. Add a good no. 8, and it won't matter much.
Fingers crossed our options increase over the next few years.
Not dissing Grace, but we already have Frizell who is looking like Shag made the right selection, just a year too early.
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@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Yeetyaah Just as you claim that Cane is better on defence, you can claim Ardie is better on attack. We only lacked a certain physicality in the backrow when Ardie was playing at 7 instead of Cane, because we didn't have a hard-hitting 6. We won't miss it as much if all the promise of someone like Cullen Grace comes to fruition. Add a good no. 8, and it won't matter much.
Fingers crossed our options increase over the next few years.
Not dissing Grace, but we already have Frizell who is looking like Shag made the right selection, just a year too early.
@Crucial I was more thinking of the next few years. Grace is only 20 and already a hard hitter; with time, he will - hopefully - get better and even stronger. I think Frizell has been playing very well this year, so good to have them both and Grace showing a lot of promise.
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I'm happy enough to have the extra bits savea provides if the 6 and 8 are bash brothers.
When your 6 and 8 are a journeyman lock and a guy 2 years past it, then savea becomes a luxury you can't afford.
Top level test rugby is trench warfare now. If you aren't winning collisions you are losing games. And that's both sides of the ball.
I will say that is impossible to express just how much I don't want to play both of them at the same time.
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Also shark i get your point, but you are massively underselling cane to make it.
He's still very good on the ground, makes really fucking great reads on defence, and hits like a truck. That definitely makes a more than handy test loose forward.
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@antipodean He probably played at 8 because Evans was injured.
@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@antipodean He probably played at 8 because Evans was injured.
So was Kirifi going to sit on the bench? Savea is categorically not a blindside flanker.
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@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@antipodean He probably played at 8 because Evans was injured.
So was Kirifi going to sit on the bench? Savea is categorically not a blindside flanker.
@antipodean said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@antipodean He probably played at 8 because Evans was injured.
So was Kirifi going to sit on the bench? Savea is categorically not a blindside flanker.
Yes, that seemed to be the go to line-up before. When Evans got injured and Savea returned from his injury, Savea was named at no. 8, Kirifi took his chances and did so very well. So well, that when Evans returned, they kept things as they were and Evans was named on the bench.
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So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
Yeah pretend Cane can't run in support, score tries, get turnovers etc. If that's the level your argument has to descend to to make a favourable one for Ardie, you don't have one.
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So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
The guy with everything you list last existed with Michael Jones, even our GOAT AB didn't have all those abilities (but he worked hard on overcoming the stuff he wasn't so great at).
I don't think Ardie's brilliant attacking play added with all the other stuff not at the same level is a better package than Cane with his dominant defence and all the other stuff not at the same level.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Is there anyone who doesn’t think Ardie Savea is the best No 7 in New Zealand?Funny thing, Ardie Savea always seems to be the best 7 in NZ at Super rugby level, tests, not so much.
