The Cane vs Savea Debate
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@shark starting an anti Chiefs player thread ... who could have imagined this?
The first 20 minutes of the England semi is why Cane is Fosters captain.
TBH, I don't think Ardie was nearly as good this year as he was in the previous two years (and Cane took a while to get back up to speed) but I'd definitely include him as the impact loosie to come on and cause havoc. Essentially back to his role he performed before his form got awesome and Cane was out through head/injury.
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Has anyone seen Ardie play well at openside this year? Can't even nail down the spot for the Hurricanes.
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Has anyone seen Ardie play well at openside this year? Can't even nail down the spot for the Hurricanes.
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So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
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This gets pretty heated at times. There was a thread not long ago which evolved (descended?) largely into a Cane v Savea Debate.
I'm 100% a Savea fan at 7.Chiefs fans love to dismiss this as nothing more than anti-Chiefery, but it certainly isn't. I think now that we have an option at 8 in Sotutu and others at 6 in Frizzel and Ioane, there is more heat on Cane as Savea may not need to be the fix-all elsewhere in the trio.
Foster's boy may not be skipper for long as this side evolves, I reckon.
Mark Hinton makes the point this morning:
The loose trio
This is where it gets really interesting. Is there anyone who doesn’t think Ardie Savea is the best No 7 in New Zealand? Yet Sam Cane is the captain and will play, presumably, at openside. -
@Yeetyaah Just as you claim that Cane is better on defence, you can claim Ardie is better on attack. We only lacked a certain physicality in the backrow when Ardie was playing at 7 instead of Cane, because we didn't have a hard-hitting 6. We won't miss it as much if all the promise of someone like Cullen Grace comes to fruition. Add a good no. 8, and it won't matter much.
Fingers crossed our options increase over the next few years.
@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Yeetyaah Just as you claim that Cane is better on defence, you can claim Ardie is better on attack. We only lacked a certain physicality in the backrow when Ardie was playing at 7 instead of Cane, because we didn't have a hard-hitting 6. We won't miss it as much if all the promise of someone like Cullen Grace comes to fruition. Add a good no. 8, and it won't matter much.
Fingers crossed our options increase over the next few years.
Not dissing Grace, but we already have Frizell who is looking like Shag made the right selection, just a year too early.
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@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Yeetyaah Just as you claim that Cane is better on defence, you can claim Ardie is better on attack. We only lacked a certain physicality in the backrow when Ardie was playing at 7 instead of Cane, because we didn't have a hard-hitting 6. We won't miss it as much if all the promise of someone like Cullen Grace comes to fruition. Add a good no. 8, and it won't matter much.
Fingers crossed our options increase over the next few years.
Not dissing Grace, but we already have Frizell who is looking like Shag made the right selection, just a year too early.
@Crucial I was more thinking of the next few years. Grace is only 20 and already a hard hitter; with time, he will - hopefully - get better and even stronger. I think Frizell has been playing very well this year, so good to have them both and Grace showing a lot of promise.
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I'm happy enough to have the extra bits savea provides if the 6 and 8 are bash brothers.
When your 6 and 8 are a journeyman lock and a guy 2 years past it, then savea becomes a luxury you can't afford.
Top level test rugby is trench warfare now. If you aren't winning collisions you are losing games. And that's both sides of the ball.
I will say that is impossible to express just how much I don't want to play both of them at the same time.
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Also shark i get your point, but you are massively underselling cane to make it.
He's still very good on the ground, makes really fucking great reads on defence, and hits like a truck. That definitely makes a more than handy test loose forward.
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@antipodean He probably played at 8 because Evans was injured.
@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@antipodean He probably played at 8 because Evans was injured.
So was Kirifi going to sit on the bench? Savea is categorically not a blindside flanker.
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@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@antipodean He probably played at 8 because Evans was injured.
So was Kirifi going to sit on the bench? Savea is categorically not a blindside flanker.
@antipodean said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Stargazer said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@antipodean He probably played at 8 because Evans was injured.
So was Kirifi going to sit on the bench? Savea is categorically not a blindside flanker.
Yes, that seemed to be the go to line-up before. When Evans got injured and Savea returned from his injury, Savea was named at no. 8, Kirifi took his chances and did so very well. So well, that when Evans returned, they kept things as they were and Evans was named on the bench.
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So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
Yeah pretend Cane can't run in support, score tries, get turnovers etc. If that's the level your argument has to descend to to make a favourable one for Ardie, you don't have one.
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So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
The guy with everything you list last existed with Michael Jones, even our GOAT AB didn't have all those abilities (but he worked hard on overcoming the stuff he wasn't so great at).
I don't think Ardie's brilliant attacking play added with all the other stuff not at the same level is a better package than Cane with his dominant defence and all the other stuff not at the same level.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Is there anyone who doesn’t think Ardie Savea is the best No 7 in New Zealand?Funny thing, Ardie Savea always seems to be the best 7 in NZ at Super rugby level, tests, not so much.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
The guy with everything you list last existed with Michael Jones, even our GOAT AB didn't have all those abilities (but he worked hard on overcoming the stuff he wasn't so great at).
I don't think Ardie's brilliant attacking play added with all the other stuff not at the same level is a better package than Cane with his dominant defence and all the other stuff not at the same level.
@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
The guy with everything you list last existed with Michael Jones, even our GOAT AB didn't have all those abilities (but he worked hard on overcoming the stuff he wasn't so great at).
I don't think Ardie's brilliant attacking play added with all the other stuff not at the same level is a better package than Cane with his dominant defence and all the other stuff not at the same level.
I always admired and really noticed how MJ ran with the ball not really his work over the ball.
Whereas McCaw it was his work over the ball that stood out to me.
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@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
The guy with everything you list last existed with Michael Jones, even our GOAT AB didn't have all those abilities (but he worked hard on overcoming the stuff he wasn't so great at).
I don't think Ardie's brilliant attacking play added with all the other stuff not at the same level is a better package than Cane with his dominant defence and all the other stuff not at the same level.
I always admired and really noticed how MJ ran with the ball not really his work over the ball.
Whereas McCaw it was his work over the ball that stood out to me.
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
The guy with everything you list last existed with Michael Jones, even our GOAT AB didn't have all those abilities (but he worked hard on overcoming the stuff he wasn't so great at).
I don't think Ardie's brilliant attacking play added with all the other stuff not at the same level is a better package than Cane with his dominant defence and all the other stuff not at the same level.
I always admired and really noticed how MJ ran with the ball not really his work over the ball.
Whereas McCaw it was his work over the ball that stood out to me.
He was really good over the ball when playing as 6.
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I think the “best” 7 for the ABs between Cane and Ardie depends entirely on who is in the 6 and 8 jersey.
If you have two guys who can carry and tackle hard then Cane becomes less important and Ardie’s mobility is a good thing to have.
But if you have guys who are more mobile but less physical then Cane’s defence becomes more important and Ardie is less appealing.Still think Cane at 7 and Ardie at 8 could work if they have someone smashing people Kaino style at 6. Grave of Frizzell could be that sort of 6.
Hopefully Sotutu goes so well at 8 that this is only a backup option though. -
Also shark i get your point, but you are massively underselling cane to make it.
He's still very good on the ground, makes really fucking great reads on defence, and hits like a truck. That definitely makes a more than handy test loose forward.
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Also shark i get your point, but you are massively underselling cane to make it.
He's still very good on the ground, makes really fucking great reads on defence, and hits like a truck. That definitely makes a more than handy test loose forward.
Yep, so predominantly defense. Which as you say we hopefully won't need as much.
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Everyone is ignoring Cane's horrific hands. I reckon if he was playing catch in the backyard with a four year old the kid would catch more passes.
@shark McCaw had a period where he has hands like feet, but he sorted that.
I still dont know why they dont play Cane at 6 given his defence is Kaino-like, and Ardie to play 7...instead, we played them the other way round.
I realise number doesnt always mean much, but I think it'd be easier to have Cane playing more as a 6, which seems closer to his natural game as opposed to putting Ardie there, where I think that is further away from his natural game.
