All Blacks 2021
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@gt12
To me he acknowledged that because Cane is captain, he has to play 8. Seemed like more of a pragmatic choice than his preferred position.Personally I would rather him as a 7 or bench player than starting 8 for the ABs, not enough bulk for international rugby and there are better options.
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12
To me he acknowledged that because Cane is captain, he has to play 8. Seemed like more of a pragmatic choice than his preferred position.Personally I would rather him as a 7 or bench player than starting 8 for the ABs, not enough bulk for international rugby and there are better options.
Exactly (and I agree he should be on the bench), but that wasn't the question, which was 'where do you want to play?'
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@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12
To me he acknowledged that because Cane is captain, he has to play 8. Seemed like more of a pragmatic choice than his preferred position.Personally I would rather him as a 7 or bench player than starting 8 for the ABs, not enough bulk for international rugby and there are better options.
Exactly (and I agree he should be on the bench), but that wasn't the question, which was 'where do you want to play?'
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12
To me he acknowledged that because Cane is captain, he has to play 8. Seemed like more of a pragmatic choice than his preferred position.Personally I would rather him as a 7 or bench player than starting 8 for the ABs, not enough bulk for international rugby and there are better options.
Exactly (and I agree he should be on the bench), but that wasn't the question, which was 'where do you want to play?'
he's in a hell of a pickle. He's probably our second best 7 and 8, and arguably our second or third best 6. An amazing rugby player, but going to struggle to start while Cane is captain and Hos is around. Could pivot to being a phenomenal 'closer' (ugh, bench player) as his only route to the 23
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@kiwimurph meh. Couldn't even make it into double figures.
@bones They did though
they finished the season with 10 wins from 14 games. -
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12
To me he acknowledged that because Cane is captain, he has to play 8. Seemed like more of a pragmatic choice than his preferred position.Personally I would rather him as a 7 or bench player than starting 8 for the ABs, not enough bulk for international rugby and there are better options.
Exactly (and I agree he should be on the bench), but that wasn't the question, which was 'where do you want to play?'
he's in a hell of a pickle. He's probably our second best 7 and 8, and arguably our second or third best 6. An amazing rugby player, but going to struggle to start while Cane is captain and Hos is around. Could pivot to being a phenomenal 'closer' (ugh, bench player) as his only route to the 23
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12
To me he acknowledged that because Cane is captain, he has to play 8. Seemed like more of a pragmatic choice than his preferred position.Personally I would rather him as a 7 or bench player than starting 8 for the ABs, not enough bulk for international rugby and there are better options.
Exactly (and I agree he should be on the bench), but that wasn't the question, which was 'where do you want to play?'
he's in a hell of a pickle. He's probably our second best 7 and 8, and arguably our second or third best 6. An amazing rugby player, but going to struggle to start while Cane is captain and Hos is around. Could pivot to being a phenomenal 'closer' (ugh, bench player) as his only route to the 23
sounds like the perfect definition of a super sub,
i thought we were kind of getting past the insult of coming off the bench, that 16 isn;t just the second best hooker, might actually be the best lineout thrower and you want them on at the death, 22 isn't some generic utility player, they might be a sharp shooter to nail the drop goal or penalty to win it
I love to see ardie running at tiring front rowers...but not necessarily just smashing himself against and organised and fresh defense
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12
To me he acknowledged that because Cane is captain, he has to play 8. Seemed like more of a pragmatic choice than his preferred position.Personally I would rather him as a 7 or bench player than starting 8 for the ABs, not enough bulk for international rugby and there are better options.
Exactly (and I agree he should be on the bench), but that wasn't the question, which was 'where do you want to play?'
he's in a hell of a pickle. He's probably our second best 7 and 8, and arguably our second or third best 6. An amazing rugby player, but going to struggle to start while Cane is captain and Hos is around. Could pivot to being a phenomenal 'closer' (ugh, bench player) as his only route to the 23
sounds like the perfect definition of a super sub,
i thought we were kind of getting past the insult of coming off the bench, that 16 isn;t just the second best hooker, might actually be the best lineout thrower and you want them on at the death, 22 isn't some generic utility player, they might be a sharp shooter to nail the drop goal or penalty to win it
I love to see ardie running at tiring front rowers...but not necessarily just smashing himself against and organised and fresh defense
@kiwiwomble Yep agree, Ardies best position is Super Sub, and he’d be a vital cog in the AB machine doing that - like he used to be. But players want to start I guess.
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@kiwiwomble Yep agree, Ardies best position is Super Sub, and he’d be a vital cog in the AB machine doing that - like he used to be. But players want to start I guess.
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble Yep agree, Ardies best position is Super Sub, and he’d be a vital cog in the AB machine doing that - like he used to be. But players want to start I guess.
Players should do as they are told and what is best for the team.
Ardie is not a test match #8
Unless we develop a new plan that plays to his strengths and hides his weaknesses (@ACT-Crusader 's back to the future rodders plan)
Either pick the players, and mould tur game plan to suit their strengths, or pick.the plan, and then the best players to execute. From.the outside it often looks like we do a little of each.
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@kiwiwomble Yep agree, Ardies best position is Super Sub, and he’d be a vital cog in the AB machine doing that - like he used to be. But players want to start I guess.
@nepia slight tangent, i just watched a youtube clip of beaudens best moments, almost all of them in the black jersey he was wearing 22, came on and tore apart tiring defences
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@kiwiwomble Yep agree, Ardies best position is Super Sub, and he’d be a vital cog in the AB machine doing that - like he used to be. But players want to start I guess.
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble Yep agree, Ardies best position is Super Sub, and he’d be a vital cog in the AB machine doing that - like he used to be.
But would Ardie come on to play 6 or 8?
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble Yep agree, Ardies best position is Super Sub, and he’d be a vital cog in the AB machine doing that - like he used to be. But players want to start I guess.
Players should do as they are told and what is best for the team.
Ardie is not a test match #8
Unless we develop a new plan that plays to his strengths and hides his weaknesses (@ACT-Crusader 's back to the future rodders plan)
Either pick the players, and mould tur game plan to suit their strengths, or pick.the plan, and then the best players to execute. From.the outside it often looks like we do a little of each.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Ardie is not a test match #8
Based on what?
He played very well at 8 in the tests last year
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Ardie is not a test match #8
Based on what?
He played very well at 8 in the tests last year
@winger said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Ardie is not a test match #8
Based on what?
He played very well at 8 in the tests last year
he did.
Height. You need another lineout option. A tall 6 helps, but a fourth option is important too. Ardie's awesome, but lacking height
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@winger said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Ardie is not a test match #8
Based on what?
He played very well at 8 in the tests last year
he did.
Height. You need another lineout option. A tall 6 helps, but a fourth option is important too. Ardie's awesome, but lacking height
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@nzzp Not when he has got the 22mm springs in, then he must be towering over the 2.00m height.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Ardie is not a test match #8
Based on what?
He played very well at 8 in the tests last year
@winger said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Ardie is not a test match #8
Based on what?
He played very well at 8 in the tests last year
He's great against teams like Oz, but would not be very effective against larger packs like England and SA at eight. He would be my seven though.
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Good coaches can have bad seasons, Joseph in 2013? His third year in charge and got the record number of losses, won it two years after that
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
Good coaches can have bad seasons, Joseph in 2013? His third year in charge and got the record number of losses, won it two years after that
But did he make the team much better after his first two seasons? Yes. So my point stands.
Good coaches can have bad seasons, if injuries take over etc. Bad coaches can have good seasons when things click (Foster made the finals once). But they revert to form pretty quickly.
Can you find me an example of a coach who did not improve his team in the first two years, but then went on to be a good coach? I suppose there are some, but it will be slim pickings. Joseph was unusual in taking a long time to get his Super victory because if they haven't won it by their second year they pretty much never will . But he started a long way back compared to most coaches, and his trajectory was up from the start.
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@winger said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Ardie is not a test match #8
Based on what?
He played very well at 8 in the tests last year
he did.
Height. You need another lineout option. A tall 6 helps, but a fourth option is important too. Ardie's awesome, but lacking height
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@winger said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Ardie is not a test match #8
Based on what?
He played very well at 8 in the tests last year
he did.
Height. You need another lineout option. A tall 6 helps, but a fourth option is important too. Ardie's awesome, but lacking height
Agree that he short (1.88) but not Blackwell short as a lock. And if the balance of the forwards is right I don't see an issue.
And is Sotutu too short for an AB 6 (1.92).
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@winger said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Ardie is not a test match #8
Based on what?
He played very well at 8 in the tests last year
he did.
Height. You need another lineout option. A tall 6 helps, but a fourth option is important too. Ardie's awesome, but lacking height
Agree that he short (1.88) but not Blackwell short as a lock. And if the balance of the forwards is right I don't see an issue.
And is Sotutu too short for an AB 6 (1.92).
lineouts are not all about hight. if it was Devin Toner would be the best lock of all time.
Although it does help to be tall...Ardie was excellent in 8 last season and he is too good to not start. and he seems to work fine in the lineouts.
It's unfortunate for Hoskins but you cant not start Ardie.
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lineouts are not all about hight. if it was Devin Toner would be the best lock of all time.
Although it does help to be tall...Ardie was excellent in 8 last season and he is too good to not start. and he seems to work fine in the lineouts.
It's unfortunate for Hoskins but you cant not start Ardie.
@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
lineouts are not all about hight. if it was Devin Toner would be the best lock of all time.
Although it does help to be tall...Ardie was excellent in 8 last season and he is too good to not start. and he seems to work fine in the lineouts.
It's unfortunate for Hoskins but you cant not start Ardie.
It sure does help to be tall. Someone put it well here, that height doesn't matter until it does. Basically a small difference to the other jumper is 'meh', but as soon as that gets up it becomes a problem. Against Australia with the Pooper, shorter players are no issue. Conventional packs like England, though, emphasise the difference.
Ardie is and was an excellent rugby player. But if you think he should be picked ahead of Hos, I'm happy to cheerfully argue that for quite some time. Sotutu is not the finished product, but his 'ceiling' at 8 is higher than Ardie, and I think he's well on the way there.
I'd sooner argue that Ardie's a better 7 than Cane. Cane is a magnificent player, but not a conventional 7 ... if you are looking for individual pilfering, Ardie's your man. Except Cane's captain, and puts in defensive efforts that are nek level. So you're squeezing Ardie in.
Honestly, I like him on the bench to destroy teams in the back part of the game.
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@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
lineouts are not all about hight. if it was Devin Toner would be the best lock of all time.
Although it does help to be tall...Ardie was excellent in 8 last season and he is too good to not start. and he seems to work fine in the lineouts.
It's unfortunate for Hoskins but you cant not start Ardie.
It sure does help to be tall. Someone put it well here, that height doesn't matter until it does. Basically a small difference to the other jumper is 'meh', but as soon as that gets up it becomes a problem. Against Australia with the Pooper, shorter players are no issue. Conventional packs like England, though, emphasise the difference.
Ardie is and was an excellent rugby player. But if you think he should be picked ahead of Hos, I'm happy to cheerfully argue that for quite some time. Sotutu is not the finished product, but his 'ceiling' at 8 is higher than Ardie, and I think he's well on the way there.
I'd sooner argue that Ardie's a better 7 than Cane. Cane is a magnificent player, but not a conventional 7 ... if you are looking for individual pilfering, Ardie's your man. Except Cane's captain, and puts in defensive efforts that are nek level. So you're squeezing Ardie in.
Honestly, I like him on the bench to destroy teams in the back part of the game.
@nzzp yes I agree that ardie is a better 7. The best option really would be to remove cane from captain... I know he is old but I think whitelock should he captain.
A captain needs to comand respect and demand victory and I am just not sure cane can do that.
But unfortunately you should never remove a player from captaincy unless he does something really dumb.
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@winger said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Ardie is not a test match #8
Based on what?
He played very well at 8 in the tests last year
He's great against teams like Oz, but would not be very effective against larger packs like England and SA at eight. He would be my seven though.
@kirwan i think this is a bit out of date. Our pack is pretty big these days and we never really got out muscled by you blokes last year. I also thought Ardie was pretty ineffective, particularly against the Argies. He makes good post contact metres... And that's kind of it. Cane a far superior test flanker.
You blokes minced us out back, particularly in Sydney. That's where the biggest mismatches are.
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@kirwan i think this is a bit out of date. Our pack is pretty big these days and we never really got out muscled by you blokes last year. I also thought Ardie was pretty ineffective, particularly against the Argies. He makes good post contact metres... And that's kind of it. Cane a far superior test flanker.
You blokes minced us out back, particularly in Sydney. That's where the biggest mismatches are.
@derpus said in All Blacks 2021:
You blokes minced us out back, particularly in Sydney. That's where the biggest mismatches are.
I still shudder at the demolition job England did on us in the QF. Remember, the starting 8 were
Kieran Read (c), Ardie Savea, Scott Barrett, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Nepo Laulala, Codie Taylor, Joe Moody.
An out of form 8
A quality 7
A lock playing at 6
A lock running on fumes
A lock coming back from injury
A front row with a world class 2, and two props who (I think) underperformed.then you got to the bench
Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane,'nuff said. Angus. Fark. And Sam not starting... I am so triggered right now
