Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?
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Simple explainer which seems about right, I like that NZR have post SL plans. Selling the stake too a pension fund is a great idea, after a growth powered by SL - hopefully!
Ozzie needs cash even more than we do
I think NZR didn't take the loans from WR, which means a full payment from next RWC.
@machpants said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Simple explainer which seems about right, I like that NZR have post SL plans. Selling the stake too a pension fund is a great idea, after a growth powered by SL - hopefully!
It's a very favourable piece.
This bit I like:
There is potential to play an international tournament every two or four years, with revenue-sharing opportunities through broadcasting rights and ticket sales.
I've said on here before that NZRU should be trying to create a Pan-Pacific Championship, played in November, so hosted in either Japan or USA, probably every 4 years. 2 pools a 4 (3 weeks) with a grand final and bowl/ plate round on the 4th week.
This would come at expense of an away tour and disrupt the reciprocal tour agreements with Europe. Which may be good, or may be a 'cost'.This bit I don't like:
It’s understood NZ Rugby and Silver Lake have discussed this, and agree the best way forward is for the All Blacks to play the same number of tests – currently at around 15 – a year, or less.
We absolutely need to be moving to a sustainable structure where we play less tests, and have a successful super rugby and champions league meaning that we don't need to milk the All Blacks cow for out of window tests and extra Bledisloes. I think this may be too long a game for private equity to be interested in?
With this in mind, I really hope if ARU are going private euqity it is also with SL and we get some 'synergies' (vomit) on the compeitions.
Are SL going to add anything to dealing with the amateur JRU? and weird company clubs Top League structure?
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@gt12 said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
I'd hope so too, but they are also professional footy players who are most likely to wear the extra work that will result from this action, and it doesn't appear that they will be getting any extra cash out of it.
I don't see why we should be asking a small group of people to most likely take on extra work for the same pay. In fact, it sounds like a recipe to lose players, not keep them.
I'll admit that I lean towards their side though, so that probably tints my thinking.
what extra work will the players have to do?
@kiwiwomble said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@gt12 said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
I'd hope so too, but they are also professional footy players who are most likely to wear the extra work that will result from this action, and it doesn't appear that they will be getting any extra cash out of it.
I don't see why we should be asking a small group of people to most likely take on extra work for the same pay. In fact, it sounds like a recipe to lose players, not keep them.
I'll admit that I lean towards their side though, so that probably tints my thinking.
what extra work will the players have to do?
According to that article above (which is the first I've read with any details), none.
I'm not sure I believe that, but even assuming that to be true, we could assume that they'll be played as much as they are now (which is probably too much), will have more PR and representative duties, and likely more travel. So, I'm not sure that telling that they won't be 'worse off' is quite the right pitch to be making.
Although that article has a few details, there still doesn't seem to be any real plan about where this extra income will come from.
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@jc said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kiwiwomble Well if a pair of trainers sells for millions just because Kanye West wore them, I'd expect a ball touched by the hand of Richie McCaw to go for a billion at least.
How much would Ritchie be prepared to donate both for?
Part of their sales pitch to the PUs was that advances in technology could potentially make life easier for volunteers, find ways to connect clubs to communities and monetise data.
Ah that's good to hear. I have always wanted technological help in roping off fields, putting out the goal post pads, sweeping out changing rooms, scrubbing and hosing showers and toilets in the changing rooms, picking up rubbish from the surrounds of fields before and after games, emptying wheely bins, and many many other mundane jobs done by us volunteers.
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I wonder what they will bring that a group of dedicated and well paid NZ business types couldn't..
@nostrildamus said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
I wonder what they will bring that a group of dedicated and well paid NZ business types couldn't..
Cash?
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@nostrildamus said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
I wonder what they will bring that a group of dedicated and well paid NZ business types couldn't..
Cash?
@booboo said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@nostrildamus said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
I wonder what they will bring that a group of dedicated and well paid NZ business types couldn't..
Cash?
I guess my point was a little bit snarky. Good business management types could bring in cash without losing control..
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@booboo said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@nostrildamus said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
I wonder what they will bring that a group of dedicated and well paid NZ business types couldn't..
Cash?
I guess my point was a little bit snarky. Good business management types could bring in cash without losing control..
@nostrildamus er they are bringing in cash without losing control, 15% is hardly a controlling share...
@Higgins well the official nzrugby app loading teams and scores in was pretty shit last time I used it, so there's that
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@nostrildamus er they are bringing in cash without losing control, 15% is hardly a controlling share...
@Higgins well the official nzrugby app loading teams and scores in was pretty shit last time I used it, so there's that
@taniwharugby said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@nostrildamus er they are bringing in cash without losing control, 15% is hardly a controlling share...
@Higgins well the official nzrugby app loading teams and scores in was pretty shit last time I used it, so there's that
Hopefully you are right.
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I hope this deal doesn't go through. They are introducing a foreign middle man for short term gain. Crazy. Just wrong.
By all means raise money but dont sell equity. NZ rugby will regret it forever.
They need passionate, capable NZ business managers to run this. So obvious. -
Players will come and go, the RPA had the audacity to try and use intellectual material as a negotiating tool ..my spies tell me they were asking for 40% of 390 million , no mention from Rob Nichol on the state of the game at grassroots level of the game , it’s almost like they are tone deaf ..just a reminder to all of our professional players , ‘you are only guardians of jerseys throughout your pro career ‘.until someone else fills that jersey.
If your foundation structure is strong ,new players will always come through .. -
I hope this deal doesn't go through. They are introducing a foreign middle man for short term gain. Crazy. Just wrong.
By all means raise money but dont sell equity. NZ rugby will regret it forever.
They need passionate, capable NZ business managers to run this. So obvious.@berniescorner said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
I hope this deal doesn't go through. They are introducing a foreign middle man for short term gain. Crazy. Just wrong.
By all means raise money but dont sell equity. NZ rugby will regret it forever.
They need passionate, capable NZ business managers to run this. So obvious.If done well, this is a 'ports of Tauranga' situation, where an external makes the business worth more. Clearly NZR think NZ business managers don't have the international clout to get into and drive the deals they think could be made.
looking at their list of investments, they are hooked into a shedload of big tech companies. NZR haven't pushed much fo the deal upside aside from the cash - but that has to be the reason to partner with them
I'm on the fence; done well could be awesome, done poorly could be a millstone. Still, Silver Lake seem massively preferable to CVC
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Players will come and go, the RPA had the audacity to try and use intellectual material as a negotiating tool ..my spies tell me they were asking for 40% of 390 million , no mention from Rob Nichol on the state of the game at grassroots level of the game , it’s almost like they are tone deaf ..just a reminder to all of our professional players , ‘you are only guardians of jerseys throughout your pro career ‘.until someone else fills that jersey.
If your foundation structure is strong ,new players will always come through ..@steven-harris said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Players will come and go, the RPA had the audacity to try and use intellectual material as a negotiating tool ..my spies tell me they were asking for 40% of 390 million , no mention from Rob Nichol on the state of the game at grassroots level of the game , it’s almost like they are tone deaf ..just a reminder to all of our professional players , ‘you are only guardians of jerseys throughout your pro career ‘.until someone else fills that jersey.
If your foundation structure is strong ,new players will always come through ..It’s so hard to comment on this. When the players talk publicly they talk about guardianship, and the letter they put up was certainly about that. However, the NZRU have painted them into a corner labelled greedy money grabbers - could be?
I note that the amount of money proposed for provinces up front wasn’t a lot so it’s also hard to know who gets what, over what time and whether there is a NZRFU long term plan for change...or just a bunch of money just goes into the kitty.
Apart from owning Twitter, still don’t know what SL will do that someone else couldn’t do? What are their special powers....someone say something that is substantive please apart from trust us, we need the money....
As for money, equity investment is always more expensive than debt....but less risky yes. At this point debt has never been cheaper. So it’s about or should be about what SL will bring to the table - from outside it’s so hard to say but still don’t like ownership being sold.
In terms of saving NZ Rugby, I think the NZRU comments are a bit self serving. They throw the line about saving clubs but they have masterminded the progressive decline in clubs and provinces with their elite pathways. It used to be Club, Province, All Blacks.
Now it’s elite Schools, Academy Rugby, S15, and All Blacks with Club Rugby and Provincial rugby all down graded in importance. They did that. That’s were their money and effort goes. They told the players and the fans that those competitions don’t matter with their actions. Year on year they put zero effort into marketing Provincial rugby. Honestly it’s like they don’t care. It should be a major asset but Super Rugby gets all the love. And even now it is still a heartless manufactured competition that serves players more than rugby communities. How many times have the Blues played up North? Pricks.Then they throw the line, we need the money to save the game. Well stop undermining the game by narrowing the pathways. You will lose a few primadonna’s to league ( the guys that don’t want to do the work ) but let them go.
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@steven-harris said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Players will come and go, the RPA had the audacity to try and use intellectual material as a negotiating tool ..my spies tell me they were asking for 40% of 390 million , no mention from Rob Nichol on the state of the game at grassroots level of the game , it’s almost like they are tone deaf ..just a reminder to all of our professional players , ‘you are only guardians of jerseys throughout your pro career ‘.until someone else fills that jersey.
If your foundation structure is strong ,new players will always come through ..It’s so hard to comment on this. When the players talk publicly they talk about guardianship, and the letter they put up was certainly about that. However, the NZRU have painted them into a corner labelled greedy money grabbers - could be?
I note that the amount of money proposed for provinces up front wasn’t a lot so it’s also hard to know who gets what, over what time and whether there is a NZRFU long term plan for change...or just a bunch of money just goes into the kitty.
Apart from owning Twitter, still don’t know what SL will do that someone else couldn’t do? What are their special powers....someone say something that is substantive please apart from trust us, we need the money....
As for money, equity investment is always more expensive than debt....but less risky yes. At this point debt has never been cheaper. So it’s about or should be about what SL will bring to the table - from outside it’s so hard to say but still don’t like ownership being sold.
In terms of saving NZ Rugby, I think the NZRU comments are a bit self serving. They throw the line about saving clubs but they have masterminded the progressive decline in clubs and provinces with their elite pathways. It used to be Club, Province, All Blacks.
Now it’s elite Schools, Academy Rugby, S15, and All Blacks with Club Rugby and Provincial rugby all down graded in importance. They did that. That’s were their money and effort goes. They told the players and the fans that those competitions don’t matter with their actions. Year on year they put zero effort into marketing Provincial rugby. Honestly it’s like they don’t care. It should be a major asset but Super Rugby gets all the love. And even now it is still a heartless manufactured competition that serves players more than rugby communities. How many times have the Blues played up North? Pricks.Then they throw the line, we need the money to save the game. Well stop undermining the game by narrowing the pathways. You will lose a few primadonna’s to league ( the guys that don’t want to do the work ) but let them go.
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@steven-harris said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Players will come and go, the RPA had the audacity to try and use intellectual material as a negotiating tool ..my spies tell me they were asking for 40% of 390 million , no mention from Rob Nichol on the state of the game at grassroots level of the game , it’s almost like they are tone deaf ..just a reminder to all of our professional players , ‘you are only guardians of jerseys throughout your pro career ‘.until someone else fills that jersey.
If your foundation structure is strong ,new players will always come through ..It’s so hard to comment on this. When the players talk publicly they talk about guardianship, and the letter they put up was certainly about that. However, the NZRU have painted them into a corner labelled greedy money grabbers - could be?
I note that the amount of money proposed for provinces up front wasn’t a lot so it’s also hard to know who gets what, over what time and whether there is a NZRFU long term plan for change...or just a bunch of money just goes into the kitty.
Apart from owning Twitter, still don’t know what SL will do that someone else couldn’t do? What are their special powers....someone say something that is substantive please apart from trust us, we need the money....
As for money, equity investment is always more expensive than debt....but less risky yes. At this point debt has never been cheaper. So it’s about or should be about what SL will bring to the table - from outside it’s so hard to say but still don’t like ownership being sold.
In terms of saving NZ Rugby, I think the NZRU comments are a bit self serving. They throw the line about saving clubs but they have masterminded the progressive decline in clubs and provinces with their elite pathways. It used to be Club, Province, All Blacks.
Now it’s elite Schools, Academy Rugby, S15, and All Blacks with Club Rugby and Provincial rugby all down graded in importance. They did that. That’s were their money and effort goes. They told the players and the fans that those competitions don’t matter with their actions. Year on year they put zero effort into marketing Provincial rugby. Honestly it’s like they don’t care. It should be a major asset but Super Rugby gets all the love. And even now it is still a heartless manufactured competition that serves players more than rugby communities. How many times have the Blues played up North? Pricks.Then they throw the line, we need the money to save the game. Well stop undermining the game by narrowing the pathways. You will lose a few primadonna’s to league ( the guys that don’t want to do the work ) but let them go.
Think you’re being harsh. That’s modern rugby worldwide. I lived in Ireland for a while. Their most successful club Leinster goes thru the same pathways. If you’re good at school you go into academy. If not you play club rugby. That’s the modern way.
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From the article below (behind a pay-wall):
New Zealand Rugby could be a loss-making venture by 2025 and living off its capital reserves if it takes the deal with Silver Lake.
The national union will, according to an independent report by world renowned accountancy firm BDO, be running at an operational loss of almost $11m in four years if Silver Lake only deliver 50 per cent of their ambitious revenue growth targets.
The Herald has gained access to the BDO report which highlights the true level of risk NZR will be taking by agreeing a deal to sell 12.5 per cent of future commercial income to US fund manager Silver Lake.
NZR questioned the methodology of the BDO report, stating that: "NZR have reviewed the models presented by BDO and believe them to have a number of fundamental flaws."
Specifically, the report highlights that Silver Lake would be entering the partnership with virtually zero risk as they are taking a 12.5 per cent share of net revenue – total income generated by the new company that will be formed, minus the costs of setting up and running that venture - and hence their returns are unaffected by the overall profitability of NZR.
NZR could suffer heavy seven-figure losses year on year and Silver Lake will still pull out millions for its investors.
There are no penalty clauses or punitive outcomes for Silver Lake if they don't achieve their forecasts.(...)
The BDO report formed the basis of a presentation the New Zealand Rugby Players' Association gave to the NZR board, provincial unions chairs and former All Blacks captains last week.
There's much more text, but I don't think I can post it without breaching copy right.
For example, the report also states what happens if all goes to plan. And even that isn't a positive story.
Example:
But that scenario of living off interest payments is questioned by BDO and the NZRPA, who both say it makes little sense to effectively take Silver Lake's money and then pay it back to them at a rate that would be higher than if the national body effectively borrowed the money from a bank or other mainstream financial institutions.
But also:
Earlier this week NZR released a 10-page document to refute the claims made by the BDO report.
NZR stated that: "BDO and NZRPA have selected preferential aspects of the Silver Lake assumptions to support their arguments, blended with alternate models, which we believe demonstrates a misunderstanding of the economic model that underpins rugby."and further comments from NZR.
I have not idea about who is wrong and who is right in this, but one thing is clear: decision-making shouldn't be rushed about something as important as this. -
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@steven-harris said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Players will come and go, the RPA had the audacity to try and use intellectual material as a negotiating tool ..my spies tell me they were asking for 40% of 390 million , no mention from Rob Nichol on the state of the game at grassroots level of the game , it’s almost like they are tone deaf ..just a reminder to all of our professional players , ‘you are only guardians of jerseys throughout your pro career ‘.until someone else fills that jersey.
If your foundation structure is strong ,new players will always come through ..It’s so hard to comment on this. When the players talk publicly they talk about guardianship, and the letter they put up was certainly about that. However, the NZRU have painted them into a corner labelled greedy money grabbers - could be?
I note that the amount of money proposed for provinces up front wasn’t a lot so it’s also hard to know who gets what, over what time and whether there is a NZRFU long term plan for change...or just a bunch of money just goes into the kitty.
Apart from owning Twitter, still don’t know what SL will do that someone else couldn’t do? What are their special powers....someone say something that is substantive please apart from trust us, we need the money....
As for money, equity investment is always more expensive than debt....but less risky yes. At this point debt has never been cheaper. So it’s about or should be about what SL will bring to the table - from outside it’s so hard to say but still don’t like ownership being sold.
In terms of saving NZ Rugby, I think the NZRU comments are a bit self serving. They throw the line about saving clubs but they have masterminded the progressive decline in clubs and provinces with their elite pathways. It used to be Club, Province, All Blacks.
Now it’s elite Schools, Academy Rugby, S15, and All Blacks with Club Rugby and Provincial rugby all down graded in importance. They did that. That’s were their money and effort goes. They told the players and the fans that those competitions don’t matter with their actions. Year on year they put zero effort into marketing Provincial rugby. Honestly it’s like they don’t care. It should be a major asset but Super Rugby gets all the love. And even now it is still a heartless manufactured competition that serves players more than rugby communities. How many times have the Blues played up North? Pricks.Then they throw the line, we need the money to save the game. Well stop undermining the game by narrowing the pathways. You will lose a few primadonna’s to league ( the guys that don’t want to do the work ) but let them go.
Think you’re being harsh. That’s modern rugby worldwide. I lived in Ireland for a while. Their most successful club Leinster goes thru the same pathways. If you’re good at school you go into academy. If not you play club rugby. That’s the modern way.
@billy-tell Ireland’s not NZ. Rugby means something. If you lose that, it just becomes another professional sport.
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From the article below (behind a pay-wall):
New Zealand Rugby could be a loss-making venture by 2025 and living off its capital reserves if it takes the deal with Silver Lake.
The national union will, according to an independent report by world renowned accountancy firm BDO, be running at an operational loss of almost $11m in four years if Silver Lake only deliver 50 per cent of their ambitious revenue growth targets.
The Herald has gained access to the BDO report which highlights the true level of risk NZR will be taking by agreeing a deal to sell 12.5 per cent of future commercial income to US fund manager Silver Lake.
NZR questioned the methodology of the BDO report, stating that: "NZR have reviewed the models presented by BDO and believe them to have a number of fundamental flaws."
Specifically, the report highlights that Silver Lake would be entering the partnership with virtually zero risk as they are taking a 12.5 per cent share of net revenue – total income generated by the new company that will be formed, minus the costs of setting up and running that venture - and hence their returns are unaffected by the overall profitability of NZR.
NZR could suffer heavy seven-figure losses year on year and Silver Lake will still pull out millions for its investors.
There are no penalty clauses or punitive outcomes for Silver Lake if they don't achieve their forecasts.(...)
The BDO report formed the basis of a presentation the New Zealand Rugby Players' Association gave to the NZR board, provincial unions chairs and former All Blacks captains last week.
There's much more text, but I don't think I can post it without breaching copy right.
For example, the report also states what happens if all goes to plan. And even that isn't a positive story.
Example:
But that scenario of living off interest payments is questioned by BDO and the NZRPA, who both say it makes little sense to effectively take Silver Lake's money and then pay it back to them at a rate that would be higher than if the national body effectively borrowed the money from a bank or other mainstream financial institutions.
But also:
Earlier this week NZR released a 10-page document to refute the claims made by the BDO report.
NZR stated that: "BDO and NZRPA have selected preferential aspects of the Silver Lake assumptions to support their arguments, blended with alternate models, which we believe demonstrates a misunderstanding of the economic model that underpins rugby."and further comments from NZR.
I have not idea about who is wrong and who is right in this, but one thing is clear: decision-making shouldn't be rushed about something as important as this.@stargazer yep....really interesting about where the risks lie. Hate that. The conversation has been framed that the structure protects us but here we see that that means they have excluded all risks. Sweet for them. It may still be ok if these guys are the Messiahs.
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My thoughts are along the lines that all the parties that are wanting to fund mon-profitable parts of the game, the NZR board and every single Provinicial Union, all with all the independent, and onternal, financial advice, have voted unanimously for the deal suggests that people have scrutinised this up down and sideways, and believe it is favourable.
The only party holding out is the professional players.
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@booboo said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Just listening to Rob Nicholl on Devlin. Basically says they will reach a deal.
Quick summary pls Boob?
@gt12 blah blah buzzwords... 25 years ... blah ... complicated ... core strength ... partnership ... working through it ... key stakeholder ...
Listen here: https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-demand/week-on-demand/
From 12 through to 1, talks to Brett Impie, then Nicholls (which is as far as I've got), and has apparently given Impie right of reply.
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i think i should add something that might explain my "casualness" too this all
I follow Wimbledon in UK football. We had out club stolen, ground sold off team moved 70 miles away, badge and colours changed etc, the only thing left was the legal entity that use to own the club and even that they changed the name of
....so we started a new club back in wimbledon...and its better than the old one was...the fans ultimately make sports clubs
If they do too much that we as fans dont like...someone will form a break away comp...or we'll all go back to watching club rugby or something and we'll have an invitational team that wears black with a non trademarked silver fern on the front.
They cant kill rugby in NZ, so lets try and take their money and see if we can make things more sustainable....and if not we'll try something else
@kiwiwomble said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
i think i should add something that might explain my "casualness" too this all
I follow Wimbledon in UK football. We had out club stolen, ground sold off team moved 70 miles away, badge and colours changed etc, the only thing left was the legal entity that use to own the club and even that they changed the name of
....so we started a new club back in wimbledon...and its better than the old one was...the fans ultimately make sports clubs
If they do too much that we as fans dont like...someone will form a break away comp...or we'll all go back to watching club rugby or something and we'll have an invitational team that wears black with a non trademarked silver fern on the front.
They cant kill rugby in NZ, so lets try and take their money and see if we can make things more sustainable....and if not we'll try something else
Where there is a disconnect is that the path to a return for Silver Lake is to grow the OVERSEAS fan base and to milk them for revenue.
Which implicitly means deprioritising the views of the DOMESTIC fan base.
In the end that could mean shooting for an annual round robin of the top ten nations. And a decoupling of ABs from domestic rugby, because fitting that in across the globe will be exceptionally challenging.
Of course the English and French clubs won't like that.
If the teams play all the time, it seems inevitably that the AB's 'edge' will diminish.
Furthermore, IMO the AB 'edge' is in large part because of the rugby played from midgets to ITM, which breeds instincts which simply can't be coached.
For me, the playing schedule of the ABs should be entirely outside the Silver Lake remit. Their skills are most likely to be in optimising viewing revenue and merchandising.
The PE playbook tends to involve price increases, reducing cost of services (in practice lowering quality to enable cost savings), elimination of unprofitable activities and deferral of expenditure wherever possible.
I remain a skeptic.
