All Blacks 2021
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It’s really hard to gauge where we are at against the opposition we have faced over the last 2 weeks. But I guess most countries are in a very similar position in that regard.
The forwards have been the biggest issue for 3-4 years now and we seem to be in gradual decline there still, even though we have publicly acknowledged this is the area that we are focussing on to turn around and bring physicality back to our pack.
I haven’t seen any real evidence of this and I do wonder what would happen if we meet South Africa on a day when their pack is on fire.
It has got me wondering about the direction of All Black rugby and New Zealand rugby overall. Specifically, how does New Zealand rugby strategise for the development of the professional game, the style of play and also the type of player we are producing for international rugby?
I always assumed this direction was done through the All Blacks mgmt and coaching but it seems like we are out of synch with the way the rugby world is going in a number of areas.
Firstly, the forwards we produce for the All Blacks for a long time now are much leaner than their counterparts in the NH and SA. We all know we don’t produce the same amount of big men as these sides traditionally but we seem to be continuing down the leaner, mobile type of players even though rugby has changed - it’s slower, with more stoppages and it becomes harder to fatigue teams as we once used to be able to do.
This approach was found out against a fired up England in the RWC semi final. It was an embarrassing loss. One glaring area was the work of England’s tight 5 compared to ours. Set piece as well as in the loose.
Secondly, we have never solved the rush defence problem that first presented itself against The Lions. Other teams have managed to score tries against those defences but it is still our kryptonite. The dual playmaker was a desperate attempt by Hansen in my view as he realised he couldn’t win the World Cup after the Irish loss in 2018. Ironically our best performance came in the qtr final against Ireland. But, by then, it was evident that getting up for 3 big games in a row were beyond that All Black group.
Thirdly, defence. Why have we not employed the same type of rush defence that we have so much trouble with? I get it is perfect against NZ and other teams don’t try to play like we do but surely if we find it so difficult why are we persisting with other defensive structures that do not provide the necessary solidity or turnover options. We might understand how to attack it better if we used the rush defences our opponents use against us.
I actually can’t recall the last piece of innovation that Come out of NZ rugby that had the rest of the world trying to catch up. Interesting how no one has adopted the dual playmaker from RWC2019.
Then I wondered whether it’s because of our set up? Hansen’s last gig as a head coach was 2003 before taking the reins in 2012. Foster’s last gig as a head coach was 2010.
Is being an asst coaches for so long in an All Blacks environment really the best preparation for leading the All Blacks? A side always under pressure to be the best side in the world?
It seems very insular in its thinking to me that we have coaches wrapped up in a largely All Black winning bubble, for a long period of time, and then expect them to keep ahead of the rest of the world. Hansen ran out of ideas (and motivation?) after the Lions series and the loss of some all time great All Blacks after 2015. To expect Foster to be the man to bring the All Blacks back to the summit of world rugby is probably asking far too much of him.
What’s the answer? Is it time to ditch the continuity? Do we need a coach with more recent head coach experience, do we need to change the way we condition players, particularly forwards? Do the All Blacks/NZ rugby need to learn more from NH rugby to improve/change our approach? Have we fallen behind other countries/clubs in innovation?
The answer to all of these questions seem to be a resounding ‘yes’
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:
It’s really hard to gauge where we are at against the opposition we have faced over the last 2 weeks. But I guess most countries are in a very similar position in that regard.
The forwards have been the biggest issue for 3-4 years now and we seem to be in gradual decline there still, even though we have publicly acknowledged this is the area that we are focussing on to turn around and bring physicality back to our pack.
I haven’t seen any real evidence of this and I do wonder what would happen if we meet South Africa on a day when their pack is on fire.
Oh no, not those South African forwards again…
We’ve have many test matches against the Boks across a number of different coaching setups where their forwards have fronted and may have even had the upper hand, yet our backs have seemed to pull something out to get us the win.
And when we have had seemingly less physical packs than the Boks (Bakkies, Matfied, Venter, Burger, Smit etc) and yet we still win test matches.
I think the South Africa line is overplayed.
Agree with a couple of other things in your post though. And welcome back!
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@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:
It’s really hard to gauge where we are at against the opposition we have faced over the last 2 weeks. But I guess most countries are in a very similar position in that regard.
The forwards have been the biggest issue for 3-4 years now and we seem to be in gradual decline there still, even though we have publicly acknowledged this is the area that we are focussing on to turn around and bring physicality back to our pack.
I haven’t seen any real evidence of this and I do wonder what would happen if we meet South Africa on a day when their pack is on fire.
Oh no, not those South African forwards again…
We’ve have many test matches against the Boks across a number of different coaching setups where their forwards have fronted and may have even had the upper hand, yet our backs have seemed to pull something out to get us the win.
And when we have had seemingly less physical packs than the Boks (Bakkies, Matfied, Venter, Burger, Smit etc) and yet we still win test matches.
I think the South Africa line is overplayed.
Agree with a couple of other things in your post though. And welcome back!
Thanks!
I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. We have been able to hold our own and then some against Sa forwards for a long time. We just don’t produce the size they do on a regular basis.
The current SA team has been talked up to mythical proportions, mainly by the Uk press leading up to the lions tour and the fact they haven’t actually played since winning the rwc final.
But, it is not just them of course. I wonder where a neutral would rank an All Black pack in relation to the other top 10 sides
We have had a gradual decline in the quality of our forward play and forwards over the last 4 years. I haven’t seen any real signs of improvement yet.
Having said that, we clearly haven’t put out or best pack yet. If we manage to do that, I think it could be pretty competitive.
I am really looking forward to matching up against them as it will show us where we are at. Hopefully they can have most of their top squad available
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My thoughts on Bok forwards, is they tend to be bigger at times, but definitely more physical when they step up to test rugby compared to how same players go in super seemingly. In saying that perhaps they pick the more physical players for tests. For some reason we generally also tend to lift physicallity against the Boks, maybe it a mental thing? We don't often get a combo of raw physicallity and skill we had in the 2013 test(i think it was) where both teams seem to have it all(still probably best test I remember seeing since the turn of the century)
When we have struggled we have tended to still do alright because we have played at a probably higher skill level, which is a slight concern for me at moment, I am not convinced our players have shown the real high skill level at Super rugby the last year or 2, you can't learn it at AB level, you need to already have it. We just haven't seen teams play the quick passing game on the short side it seems.I will add the player we might miss a hell of a lot against Boks this year is Sam Cane, who plays the physical hard style required by the loosies against them, Jacobson will be good, I not sure about Akira or Frizell?
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My thoughts on Bok forwards, is they tend to be bigger at times, but definitely more physical when they step up to test rugby compared to how same players go in super seemingly. In saying that perhaps they pick the more physical players for tests. For some reason we generally also tend to lift physicallity against the Boks, maybe it a mental thing? We don't often get a combo of raw physicallity and skill we had in the 2013 test(i think it was) where both teams seem to have it all(still probably best test I remember seeing since the turn of the century)
When we have struggled we have tended to still do alright because we have played at a probably higher skill level, which is a slight concern for me at moment, I am not convinced our players have shown the real high skill level at Super rugby the last year or 2, you can't learn it at AB level, you need to already have it. We just haven't seen teams play the quick passing game on the short side it seems.I will add the player we might miss a hell of a lot against Boks this year is Sam Cane, who plays the physical hard style required by the loosies against them, Jacobson will be good, I not sure about Akira or Frizell?
Hey Danny, yes he will be a big loss against them. I thought he was very good last year as AB captain and is that type of player who will really lead from the front and put players on their arse time and time again. He even developed a bit of a running game too.
Papalii is a player in that mould as well and I think he would relish a chance against them.
Savea, papalii and Jacobson would be a good back row to match up against them.
The 2013 test was one of the best in recent memory for sure.
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All Blacks lock and Sky Super Rugby Trans Ta$man-winning captain Patrick Tuipulotu has inked a long-term deal with New Zealand Rugby and the Blues, which will see him leave for a playing sabbatical in Japan before returning home. 28-year-old Tuipulotu, who has played 38 Tests since making his All Blacks debut in 2014, has signed a long-term contract through to 2025 for both club and country – the first All Black to do so.
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All Blacks lock and Sky Super Rugby Trans Ta$man-winning captain Patrick Tuipulotu has inked a long-term deal with New Zealand Rugby and the Blues, which will see him leave for a playing sabbatical in Japan before returning home. 28-year-old Tuipulotu, who has played 38 Tests since making his All Blacks debut in 2014, has signed a long-term contract through to 2025 for both club and country – the first All Black to do so.
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@bovidae I assume this means he didn't have a sabbatical clause in his previous contract and he had to re-negotiate it, because he was already signed through to 2023.
@stargazer said in All Blacks 2021:
@bovidae I assume this means he didn't have a sabbatical clause in his previous contract and he had to re-negotiate it, because he was already signed through to 2023.
There is a threshold for the number of Tests played before you are allowed a sabbatical, maybe passed it?
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@stargazer said in All Blacks 2021:
@bovidae I assume this means he didn't have a sabbatical clause in his previous contract and he had to re-negotiate it, because he was already signed through to 2023.
There is a threshold for the number of Tests played before you are allowed a sabbatical, maybe passed it?
@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:
@stargazer said in All Blacks 2021:
@bovidae I assume this means he didn't have a sabbatical clause in his previous contract and he had to re-negotiate it, because he was already signed through to 2023.
There is a threshold for the number of Tests played before you are allowed a sabbatical, maybe passed it?
Don't think there is any limit, is a whole picture 'given long, good service to NZ rugby'. I reckon if Simone like ash Dixon asked he would get one, despite 0 caps
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Seems a reasonable way to keep the more fringe players in NZ if you can get a longer term commitment from them afterwards.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
was there much the coaches could do? Were there other forwards who could have/should have saved the day?
Losing Luatua overseas a couple of years earlier by selecting Elliot Dixon and Jordan Taufua over him comes to mind...
In the 6 jersey post RWC 2015 behind Kaino they basically put all their eggs in the Squire basket and then couldn't land on an alternative option - they selected a whole bunch of people but for a variety of reasons (sometimes injury) these players never ended up decent game time (Evans, Akira, Taufua, Dixon, Jacobson, Frizell, L Whitelock etc etc).
Basically the same story with Read and the 8 jersey (though more understandable as he was captain).
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
was there much the coaches could do? Were there other forwards who could have/should have saved the day?
Losing Luatua overseas a couple of years earlier by selecting Elliot Dixon and Jordan Taufua over him comes to mind...
In the 6 jersey post RWC 2015 behind Kaino they basically put all their eggs in the Squire basket and then couldn't land on an alternative option - they selected a whole bunch of people but for a variety of reasons (sometimes injury) these players never ended up decent game time (Evans, Akira, Taufua, Dixon, Jacobson, Frizell, L Whitelock etc etc).
Basically the same story with Read and the 8 jersey (though more understandable as he was captain).
Geez, poor old Vaea Fifita doesn’t even get a mention amongst this lot.
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@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
Come on man...
Facepalm gif again
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
Norris,De groot are Loose head props,Williams can play both sides.
Fidow is a Tight head prop.
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@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
Norris,De groot are Loose head props,Williams can play both sides.
Fidow is a Tight head prop.
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
Norris,De groot are Loose head props,Williams can play both sides.
Fidow is a Tight head prop.
And he must be about 1000 miles behind Newell and Williams if we are talking about young props to bring in and develop.
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@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
Norris,De groot are Loose head props,Williams can play both sides.
Fidow is a Tight head prop.
And he must be about 1000 miles behind Newell and Williams if we are talking about young props to bring in and develop.
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
Norris,De groot are Loose head props,Williams can play both sides.
Fidow is a Tight head prop.
And he must be about 1000 miles behind Newell and Williams if we are talking about young props to bring in and develop.
Yep I would think so.
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Fidow would have been a good hooker IMO. He played as a hooker in one game during the 2017 U20 WC if my memory does not betray me, and was rather convincing. His main (and big) flaw is his scrummaging. Playing with the Nr.2 jersey would have bypassed this problem.
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Fidow would have been a good hooker IMO. He played as a hooker in one game during the 2017 U20 WC if my memory does not betray me, and was rather convincing. His main (and big) flaw is his scrummaging. Playing with the Nr.2 jersey would have bypassed this problem.
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Fidow would have been a good hooker IMO. He played as a hooker in one game during the 2017 U20 WC if my memory does not betray me, and was rather convincing. His main (and big) flaw is his scrummaging. Playing with the Nr.2 jersey would have bypassed this problem.
@cgrant said in All Blacks 2021:
Fidow would have been a good hooker IMO. He played as a hooker in one game during the 2017 U20 WC if my memory does not betray me, and was rather convincing. His main (and big) flaw is his scrummaging. Playing with the Nr.2 jersey would have bypassed this problem.
Correct. He came off the bench replacing JP Sauni at hooker in the pool game against Italy.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@cgrant or was it Apisai who dabbled in prop?
Don't think so. But Riccitelli was originally selected as a prop. A couple of Manawatu players also played or covered prop at U20 level, but became hookers later on (Tim Cadwallader, Nick Grogan). Coltman covered a bit of prop too.
