All Blacks 2021
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@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:
It’s really hard to gauge where we are at against the opposition we have faced over the last 2 weeks. But I guess most countries are in a very similar position in that regard.
The forwards have been the biggest issue for 3-4 years now and we seem to be in gradual decline there still, even though we have publicly acknowledged this is the area that we are focussing on to turn around and bring physicality back to our pack.
I haven’t seen any real evidence of this and I do wonder what would happen if we meet South Africa on a day when their pack is on fire.
Oh no, not those South African forwards again…
We’ve have many test matches against the Boks across a number of different coaching setups where their forwards have fronted and may have even had the upper hand, yet our backs have seemed to pull something out to get us the win.
And when we have had seemingly less physical packs than the Boks (Bakkies, Matfied, Venter, Burger, Smit etc) and yet we still win test matches.
I think the South Africa line is overplayed.
Agree with a couple of other things in your post though. And welcome back!
Thanks!
I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. We have been able to hold our own and then some against Sa forwards for a long time. We just don’t produce the size they do on a regular basis.
The current SA team has been talked up to mythical proportions, mainly by the Uk press leading up to the lions tour and the fact they haven’t actually played since winning the rwc final.
But, it is not just them of course. I wonder where a neutral would rank an All Black pack in relation to the other top 10 sides
We have had a gradual decline in the quality of our forward play and forwards over the last 4 years. I haven’t seen any real signs of improvement yet.
Having said that, we clearly haven’t put out or best pack yet. If we manage to do that, I think it could be pretty competitive.
I am really looking forward to matching up against them as it will show us where we are at. Hopefully they can have most of their top squad available
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My thoughts on Bok forwards, is they tend to be bigger at times, but definitely more physical when they step up to test rugby compared to how same players go in super seemingly. In saying that perhaps they pick the more physical players for tests. For some reason we generally also tend to lift physicallity against the Boks, maybe it a mental thing? We don't often get a combo of raw physicallity and skill we had in the 2013 test(i think it was) where both teams seem to have it all(still probably best test I remember seeing since the turn of the century)
When we have struggled we have tended to still do alright because we have played at a probably higher skill level, which is a slight concern for me at moment, I am not convinced our players have shown the real high skill level at Super rugby the last year or 2, you can't learn it at AB level, you need to already have it. We just haven't seen teams play the quick passing game on the short side it seems.I will add the player we might miss a hell of a lot against Boks this year is Sam Cane, who plays the physical hard style required by the loosies against them, Jacobson will be good, I not sure about Akira or Frizell?
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My thoughts on Bok forwards, is they tend to be bigger at times, but definitely more physical when they step up to test rugby compared to how same players go in super seemingly. In saying that perhaps they pick the more physical players for tests. For some reason we generally also tend to lift physicallity against the Boks, maybe it a mental thing? We don't often get a combo of raw physicallity and skill we had in the 2013 test(i think it was) where both teams seem to have it all(still probably best test I remember seeing since the turn of the century)
When we have struggled we have tended to still do alright because we have played at a probably higher skill level, which is a slight concern for me at moment, I am not convinced our players have shown the real high skill level at Super rugby the last year or 2, you can't learn it at AB level, you need to already have it. We just haven't seen teams play the quick passing game on the short side it seems.I will add the player we might miss a hell of a lot against Boks this year is Sam Cane, who plays the physical hard style required by the loosies against them, Jacobson will be good, I not sure about Akira or Frizell?
Hey Danny, yes he will be a big loss against them. I thought he was very good last year as AB captain and is that type of player who will really lead from the front and put players on their arse time and time again. He even developed a bit of a running game too.
Papalii is a player in that mould as well and I think he would relish a chance against them.
Savea, papalii and Jacobson would be a good back row to match up against them.
The 2013 test was one of the best in recent memory for sure.
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All Blacks lock and Sky Super Rugby Trans Ta$man-winning captain Patrick Tuipulotu has inked a long-term deal with New Zealand Rugby and the Blues, which will see him leave for a playing sabbatical in Japan before returning home. 28-year-old Tuipulotu, who has played 38 Tests since making his All Blacks debut in 2014, has signed a long-term contract through to 2025 for both club and country – the first All Black to do so.
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All Blacks lock and Sky Super Rugby Trans Ta$man-winning captain Patrick Tuipulotu has inked a long-term deal with New Zealand Rugby and the Blues, which will see him leave for a playing sabbatical in Japan before returning home. 28-year-old Tuipulotu, who has played 38 Tests since making his All Blacks debut in 2014, has signed a long-term contract through to 2025 for both club and country – the first All Black to do so.
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@bovidae I assume this means he didn't have a sabbatical clause in his previous contract and he had to re-negotiate it, because he was already signed through to 2023.
@stargazer said in All Blacks 2021:
@bovidae I assume this means he didn't have a sabbatical clause in his previous contract and he had to re-negotiate it, because he was already signed through to 2023.
There is a threshold for the number of Tests played before you are allowed a sabbatical, maybe passed it?
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@stargazer said in All Blacks 2021:
@bovidae I assume this means he didn't have a sabbatical clause in his previous contract and he had to re-negotiate it, because he was already signed through to 2023.
There is a threshold for the number of Tests played before you are allowed a sabbatical, maybe passed it?
@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:
@stargazer said in All Blacks 2021:
@bovidae I assume this means he didn't have a sabbatical clause in his previous contract and he had to re-negotiate it, because he was already signed through to 2023.
There is a threshold for the number of Tests played before you are allowed a sabbatical, maybe passed it?
Don't think there is any limit, is a whole picture 'given long, good service to NZ rugby'. I reckon if Simone like ash Dixon asked he would get one, despite 0 caps
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Seems a reasonable way to keep the more fringe players in NZ if you can get a longer term commitment from them afterwards.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
was there much the coaches could do? Were there other forwards who could have/should have saved the day?
Losing Luatua overseas a couple of years earlier by selecting Elliot Dixon and Jordan Taufua over him comes to mind...
In the 6 jersey post RWC 2015 behind Kaino they basically put all their eggs in the Squire basket and then couldn't land on an alternative option - they selected a whole bunch of people but for a variety of reasons (sometimes injury) these players never ended up decent game time (Evans, Akira, Taufua, Dixon, Jacobson, Frizell, L Whitelock etc etc).
Basically the same story with Read and the 8 jersey (though more understandable as he was captain).
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
was there much the coaches could do? Were there other forwards who could have/should have saved the day?
Losing Luatua overseas a couple of years earlier by selecting Elliot Dixon and Jordan Taufua over him comes to mind...
In the 6 jersey post RWC 2015 behind Kaino they basically put all their eggs in the Squire basket and then couldn't land on an alternative option - they selected a whole bunch of people but for a variety of reasons (sometimes injury) these players never ended up decent game time (Evans, Akira, Taufua, Dixon, Jacobson, Frizell, L Whitelock etc etc).
Basically the same story with Read and the 8 jersey (though more understandable as he was captain).
Geez, poor old Vaea Fifita doesn’t even get a mention amongst this lot.
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@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
Come on man...
Facepalm gif again
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
Norris,De groot are Loose head props,Williams can play both sides.
Fidow is a Tight head prop.
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@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
Norris,De groot are Loose head props,Williams can play both sides.
Fidow is a Tight head prop.
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
Norris,De groot are Loose head props,Williams can play both sides.
Fidow is a Tight head prop.
And he must be about 1000 miles behind Newell and Williams if we are talking about young props to bring in and develop.
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@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
Norris,De groot are Loose head props,Williams can play both sides.
Fidow is a Tight head prop.
And he must be about 1000 miles behind Newell and Williams if we are talking about young props to bring in and develop.
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@mackerzzzz surely the likes of Norris, de Groot, Williams coming through are more worth putting work into?
Yes but all three are tightheads. Whereas fidow is a loosehead.
Norris,De groot are Loose head props,Williams can play both sides.
Fidow is a Tight head prop.
And he must be about 1000 miles behind Newell and Williams if we are talking about young props to bring in and develop.
Yep I would think so.
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Fidow would have been a good hooker IMO. He played as a hooker in one game during the 2017 U20 WC if my memory does not betray me, and was rather convincing. His main (and big) flaw is his scrummaging. Playing with the Nr.2 jersey would have bypassed this problem.
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Fidow would have been a good hooker IMO. He played as a hooker in one game during the 2017 U20 WC if my memory does not betray me, and was rather convincing. His main (and big) flaw is his scrummaging. Playing with the Nr.2 jersey would have bypassed this problem.
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Fidow would have been a good hooker IMO. He played as a hooker in one game during the 2017 U20 WC if my memory does not betray me, and was rather convincing. His main (and big) flaw is his scrummaging. Playing with the Nr.2 jersey would have bypassed this problem.
@cgrant said in All Blacks 2021:
Fidow would have been a good hooker IMO. He played as a hooker in one game during the 2017 U20 WC if my memory does not betray me, and was rather convincing. His main (and big) flaw is his scrummaging. Playing with the Nr.2 jersey would have bypassed this problem.
Correct. He came off the bench replacing JP Sauni at hooker in the pool game against Italy.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@cgrant or was it Apisai who dabbled in prop?
Don't think so. But Riccitelli was originally selected as a prop. A couple of Manawatu players also played or covered prop at U20 level, but became hookers later on (Tim Cadwallader, Nick Grogan). Coltman covered a bit of prop too.
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The impression I get from Fidow is that he's happy to be a bench player for the Canes and not much else. He should really have progressed by now but you can't engender someone with aspiration if they just don't have it.
@frye the thing with Fidow is that he was alot more dominant when he had a few more kgs on his belt. I feel Chris Gibbes made him lose too much and now he just doesn't have the same impact as he used to. I thought his scrummaging would have come along by now but it just hasn't happened, making me think he could be more suited to the backrow.
