All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
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@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
they used to bring McCaw straight back into the starting XV after an injury break. I can remember Hansen saying "Rich can handle it.
Richie was a fucking freak though, who would come back in and dominate straight away. The bloke basically never showed signs of "rust" it was all Richie, all the time
what a fucking player. GOAT
Yep, plus did Richie ever come back after a 6-7 month lay off into test rugby, I don't remember it ever happening.
Probably not.
But, the usual route back from injury for most top tier people is 1 game on the bench then into the starting XV. Which Sam's already done via Italy.
I'm not 100% convinced they'll pick him, but surely he's in the frame?
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
they used to bring McCaw straight back into the starting XV after an injury break. I can remember Hansen saying "Rich can handle it.
Richie was a fucking freak though, who would come back in and dominate straight away. The bloke basically never showed signs of "rust" it was all Richie, all the time
what a fucking player. GOAT
Yep, plus did Richie ever come back after a 6-7 month lay off into test rugby, I don't remember it ever happening.
Probably not.
But, the usual route back from injury for most top tier people is 1 game on the bench then into the starting XV. Which Sam's already done via Italy.
I'm not 100% convinced they'll pick him, but surely he's in the frame?
Personally doubt it. reckon they will not change much from Welsh test. And I rate him highly, he our best 7, but I still think they will take cautious approach
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Cane no way.
Aaron Smith on the other hand…
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@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
they used to bring McCaw straight back into the starting XV after an injury break. I can remember Hansen saying "Rich can handle it.
Richie was a fucking freak though, who would come back in and dominate straight away. The bloke basically never showed signs of "rust" it was all Richie, all the time
what a fucking player. GOAT
Yep, plus did Richie ever come back after a 6-7 month lay off into test rugby, I don't remember it ever happening.
Probably not.
But, the usual route back from injury for most top tier people is 1 game on the bench then into the starting XV. Which Sam's already done via Italy.
I'm not 100% convinced they'll pick him, but surely he's in the frame?
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
they used to bring McCaw straight back into the starting XV after an injury break. I can remember Hansen saying "Rich can handle it.
Richie was a fucking freak though, who would come back in and dominate straight away. The bloke basically never showed signs of "rust" it was all Richie, all the time
what a fucking player. GOAT
Yep, plus did Richie ever come back after a 6-7 month lay off into test rugby, I don't remember it ever happening.
Probably not.
But, the usual route back from injury for most top tier people is 1 game on the bench then into the starting XV. Which Sam's already done via Italy.
I'm not 100% convinced they'll pick him, but surely he's in the frame?
Even with a 6:2 split I still don't think he could possibly be up to the speed of Test rugby, especially if his hit outs are club rugby and Italy.
Aaron is a different kettle of fish. His absence hasn't been injury. And he's clearly still our best option. The requirement for him to play is also elevated by the untimely knock suffered by Webber.
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@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
they used to bring McCaw straight back into the starting XV after an injury break. I can remember Hansen saying "Rich can handle it.
Richie was a fucking freak though, who would come back in and dominate straight away. The bloke basically never showed signs of "rust" it was all Richie, all the time
what a fucking player. GOAT
Yep, plus did Richie ever come back after a 6-7 month lay off into test rugby, I don't remember it ever happening.
Probably not.
But, the usual route back from injury for most top tier people is 1 game on the bench then into the starting XV. Which Sam's already done via Italy.
I'm not 100% convinced they'll pick him, but surely he's in the frame?
Even with a 6:2 split I still don't think he could possibly be up to the speed of Test rugby, especially if his hit outs are club rugby and Italy.
Aaron is a different kettle of fish. His absence hasn't been injury. And he's clearly still our best option. The requirement for him to play is also elevated by the untimely knock suffered by Webber.
@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
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You'd assume they had already discussed with Smith the possibility of a late call up, meaning he would have kept himself in shape, so it will be how he is when he arrives...my guess is they may start with TJ and bring AS on to (hopefully) close it out.
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@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
From memory they'd played a little more lower level rugby beforehand.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
Agreed. Fit I'd still pick Cane but I'm not as concerned given the depth in loose forwards on tour. The concern I actually have is balance.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
I'd guess his greatest impediment would be body clock.
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@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
From memory they'd played a little more lower level rugby beforehand.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
Agreed. Fit I'd still pick Cane but I'm not as concerned given the depth in loose forwards on tour. The concern I actually have is balance.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
I'd guess his greatest impediment would be body clock.
@antipodean I guess it depends on how much they fall off with a long break.
Kieran Read got hastened back in the 2011 RWC - but, he'd probably only been out a couple of months and he was a pretty crucial cog. Mostly, though - you see the big players come back off the bench one week, and the next week they start - tests and Super rugby.
I hadn't really thought too much about Sam, till today. But, I wonder whether he would have made the effort to tour if he was only planning to play the little games.
We'll see on Thursday, I guess - but, I reckon he'll at least be in the frame.
Edit: Google throws up this which I think is realistic...
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I managed to catch the IRE JPN match yesterday. I know Japan's not exactly Tier 1 but Ireland looked like they will be hard to put away. Their halfback is better than anybody we are going to field and their front row looks really well drilled. We will need to be on song.
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@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
The elephant in the room is that he was underwhelming vs Italy…
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@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
The elephant in the room is that he was underwhelming vs Italy…
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
The elephant in the room is that he was underwhelming vs Italy…
If you refer to Cane
wasn't he more underoverwhelming than underwhelming?
Got better during the match. -
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
The elephant in the room is that he was underwhelming vs Italy…
If you refer to Cane
wasn't he more underoverwhelming than underwhelming?
Got better during the match.@nostrildamus But even at the end of the game you’d be hard-pressed to argue he looked like a world class openside surely…
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@nostrildamus But even at the end of the game you’d be hard-pressed to argue he looked like a world class openside surely…
@jc said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus But even at the end of the game you’d be hard-pressed to argue he looked like a world class openside surely…
At the end of that game I'd be hardpressed to find a wordclass .... player on the field, in any AB position, or official holding a whistle or a flag..
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@nostrildamus But even at the end of the game you’d be hard-pressed to argue he looked like a world class openside surely…
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Foster and co won't be putting Cane out there to fail so I would think he'd need to show them during training this week if he is to be selected. Remember back to 2019 when BBBR looked undercooked at the RWC after his injury layoff. The coaches can afford to be more cautious here.
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Imo it will be a terrible selection if cane starts at 7. And a total lack of faith in those who have ably replaced him. Come back next season Sam. Your country will no doubt need you.
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Imo it will be a terrible selection if cane starts at 7. And a total lack of faith in those who have ably replaced him. Come back next season Sam. Your country will no doubt need you.
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Imo it will be a terrible selection if cane starts at 7. And a total lack of faith in those who have ably replaced him. Come back next season Sam. Your country will no doubt need you.
Not like they need him to be captain. Whitelock has that in hand, with Savea, Retallick ably supporting him. Cane shouldn't be anywhere near selection IMO. The Irish back row, and pack in general, are not to be underestimated or be used as a stepping stone on a long term injury comeback.
Will Aaron Smith make it straight back into the match day 23 is the bigger question. ABs would love to be able to bring him on in the closing stretch.
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Ireland 2019/2021
1 Cian Healy => Andrew Porter. Has switched back to LH, where he terrorised NZ at U20 level, notably Tuungafasi if my memory serves me correctly.
2 Rory Best (Captain) => Ronan Kelleher. Hooker is not Ireland's strongest area. Decent enough but prone to throwing yips.
3 Tadhg Furlong => Tadgh Furlong. Best TH in world rugby, would stroll into the ABs team. Does all the core duties well and pretty decent in open play too.
4 Iain Henderson => Tadgh Beirne. Beirne is a lock/6. He is savage at the tackle/ruck for turnovers/penaltiey, and pretty athletic. Not sure how would go in a tight foward tussle though. Might make way altogether or move to 6 for Henderson
5 James Ryan => James Ryan. In his first season, Irish fans were comparing him to Retallick and Itoje. Has been quieter since then, and possibly at risk from Henderson. Still a pretty decent lock.
6 Peter O'Mahony => Caelan Doris. Doris I haven't seen so much of, but he's pretty athletic and a bigger player than O'Mahony.
7 Josh van der Flier => Josh Van der Flier. Reminds me of Marty Holah a bit. Very good player, but probably a tad underpowered for the very top level.
8 CJ Stander => Jack Conan. A rangy dynamic 8, offers a lot more in the loose than Stander. Qs still remain against dominant oppositon packs IMO. Stander was a unit, but pretty one-dimensional.
9 Conor Murray => Jamison Gibson-Park. Cf his NZ ruby career
10 Johnny Sexton => Johnny Sexton. Underated on this forum but a pretty decent 1st-five. Bit of a prat/prima donna though and now aged 36.
11 Jacob Stockdale => James Lowe. Cf his NZ rugby career
12 Robbie Henshaw => Bundee Aki. Cf his NZ rugby career
13 Garry Ringrose => Gary Ringrose. Pretty decent centre, a standout at U20 level. Conrad Smith style of player.
14 Keith Earls => Andrew Conway. A nose for the tryline, decent in the air. A solid option but the ABs won't be losing sleep.
15 Rob Kearney => Hugo Keenan. I really rate Keenan. He is Ireland's answer to Ben Smith, but a bit less threatening on attack. But in the air, positioning, tactical awareness etc first rate. Unlucky not to make the Lions wider squad IMO.The current team is more dynamic than the 2019 RWC quarter-final team, I wonder about their nous under pressure though. NZ should relentlessly target the ageing Sexton and the defensively-suspect Lowe.
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Ireland 2019/2021
1 Cian Healy => Andrew Porter. Has switched back to LH, where he terrorised NZ at U20 level, notably Tuungafasi if my memory serves me correctly.
2 Rory Best (Captain) => Ronan Kelleher. Hooker is not Ireland's strongest area. Decent enough but prone to throwing yips.
3 Tadhg Furlong => Tadgh Furlong. Best TH in world rugby, would stroll into the ABs team. Does all the core duties well and pretty decent in open play too.
4 Iain Henderson => Tadgh Beirne. Beirne is a lock/6. He is savage at the tackle/ruck for turnovers/penaltiey, and pretty athletic. Not sure how would go in a tight foward tussle though. Might make way altogether or move to 6 for Henderson
5 James Ryan => James Ryan. In his first season, Irish fans were comparing him to Retallick and Itoje. Has been quieter since then, and possibly at risk from Henderson. Still a pretty decent lock.
6 Peter O'Mahony => Caelan Doris. Doris I haven't seen so much of, but he's pretty athletic and a bigger player than O'Mahony.
7 Josh van der Flier => Josh Van der Flier. Reminds me of Marty Holah a bit. Very good player, but probably a tad underpowered for the very top level.
8 CJ Stander => Jack Conan. A rangy dynamic 8, offers a lot more in the loose than Stander. Qs still remain against dominant oppositon packs IMO. Stander was a unit, but pretty one-dimensional.
9 Conor Murray => Jamison Gibson-Park. Cf his NZ ruby career
10 Johnny Sexton => Johnny Sexton. Underated on this forum but a pretty decent 1st-five. Bit of a prat/prima donna though and now aged 36.
11 Jacob Stockdale => James Lowe. Cf his NZ rugby career
12 Robbie Henshaw => Bundee Aki. Cf his NZ rugby career
13 Garry Ringrose => Gary Ringrose. Pretty decent centre, a standout at U20 level. Conrad Smith style of player.
14 Keith Earls => Andrew Conway. A nose for the tryline, decent in the air. A solid option but the ABs won't be losing sleep.
15 Rob Kearney => Hugo Keenan. I really rate Keenan. He is Ireland's answer to Ben Smith, but a bit less threatening on attack. But in the air, positioning, tactical awareness etc first rate. Unlucky not to make the Lions wider squad IMO.The current team is more dynamic than the 2019 RWC quarter-final team, I wonder about their nous under pressure though. NZ should relentlessly target the ageing Sexton and the defensively-suspect Lowe.
@billy-tell Agree with that analysis. Assuming above is their starting XV their bench will most likely be Sheehan, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, O'Mahoney, Murray, Carbery and Earls.
Pretty strong. Carbery is a good player, though on the small side. Not seen much of Bealham, but he's doing well for Connacht.
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@billy-tell Agree with that analysis. Assuming above is their starting XV their bench will most likely be Sheehan, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, O'Mahoney, Murray, Carbery and Earls.
Pretty strong. Carbery is a good player, though on the small side. Not seen much of Bealham, but he's doing well for Connacht.
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@billy-tell Agree with that analysis. Assuming above is their starting XV their bench will most likely be Sheehan, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, O'Mahoney, Murray, Carbery and Earls.
Pretty strong. Carbery is a good player, though on the small side. Not seen much of Bealham, but he's doing well for Connacht.
Bench is weak
Healy, O’Mahoney, Murray and Earls are past it. Carbery out of form with having had a multitude of injuries. Bealham a bit meh. Henderson can be very good and Sheehan I haven’t seen play i think.
