All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
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I managed to catch the IRE JPN match yesterday. I know Japan's not exactly Tier 1 but Ireland looked like they will be hard to put away. Their halfback is better than anybody we are going to field and their front row looks really well drilled. We will need to be on song.
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@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
The elephant in the room is that he was underwhelming vs Italy…
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@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
The elephant in the room is that he was underwhelming vs Italy…
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
The elephant in the room is that he was underwhelming vs Italy…
If you refer to Cane
wasn't he more underoverwhelming than underwhelming?
Got better during the match. -
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
The elephant in the room is that he was underwhelming vs Italy…
If you refer to Cane
wasn't he more underoverwhelming than underwhelming?
Got better during the match.@nostrildamus But even at the end of the game you’d be hard-pressed to argue he looked like a world class openside surely…
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@nostrildamus But even at the end of the game you’d be hard-pressed to argue he looked like a world class openside surely…
@jc said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus But even at the end of the game you’d be hard-pressed to argue he looked like a world class openside surely…
At the end of that game I'd be hardpressed to find a wordclass .... player on the field, in any AB position, or official holding a whistle or a flag..
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@nostrildamus But even at the end of the game you’d be hard-pressed to argue he looked like a world class openside surely…
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Foster and co won't be putting Cane out there to fail so I would think he'd need to show them during training this week if he is to be selected. Remember back to 2019 when BBBR looked undercooked at the RWC after his injury layoff. The coaches can afford to be more cautious here.
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Imo it will be a terrible selection if cane starts at 7. And a total lack of faith in those who have ably replaced him. Come back next season Sam. Your country will no doubt need you.
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Imo it will be a terrible selection if cane starts at 7. And a total lack of faith in those who have ably replaced him. Come back next season Sam. Your country will no doubt need you.
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Imo it will be a terrible selection if cane starts at 7. And a total lack of faith in those who have ably replaced him. Come back next season Sam. Your country will no doubt need you.
Not like they need him to be captain. Whitelock has that in hand, with Savea, Retallick ably supporting him. Cane shouldn't be anywhere near selection IMO. The Irish back row, and pack in general, are not to be underestimated or be used as a stepping stone on a long term injury comeback.
Will Aaron Smith make it straight back into the match day 23 is the bigger question. ABs would love to be able to bring him on in the closing stretch.
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Ireland 2019/2021
1 Cian Healy => Andrew Porter. Has switched back to LH, where he terrorised NZ at U20 level, notably Tuungafasi if my memory serves me correctly.
2 Rory Best (Captain) => Ronan Kelleher. Hooker is not Ireland's strongest area. Decent enough but prone to throwing yips.
3 Tadhg Furlong => Tadgh Furlong. Best TH in world rugby, would stroll into the ABs team. Does all the core duties well and pretty decent in open play too.
4 Iain Henderson => Tadgh Beirne. Beirne is a lock/6. He is savage at the tackle/ruck for turnovers/penaltiey, and pretty athletic. Not sure how would go in a tight foward tussle though. Might make way altogether or move to 6 for Henderson
5 James Ryan => James Ryan. In his first season, Irish fans were comparing him to Retallick and Itoje. Has been quieter since then, and possibly at risk from Henderson. Still a pretty decent lock.
6 Peter O'Mahony => Caelan Doris. Doris I haven't seen so much of, but he's pretty athletic and a bigger player than O'Mahony.
7 Josh van der Flier => Josh Van der Flier. Reminds me of Marty Holah a bit. Very good player, but probably a tad underpowered for the very top level.
8 CJ Stander => Jack Conan. A rangy dynamic 8, offers a lot more in the loose than Stander. Qs still remain against dominant oppositon packs IMO. Stander was a unit, but pretty one-dimensional.
9 Conor Murray => Jamison Gibson-Park. Cf his NZ ruby career
10 Johnny Sexton => Johnny Sexton. Underated on this forum but a pretty decent 1st-five. Bit of a prat/prima donna though and now aged 36.
11 Jacob Stockdale => James Lowe. Cf his NZ rugby career
12 Robbie Henshaw => Bundee Aki. Cf his NZ rugby career
13 Garry Ringrose => Gary Ringrose. Pretty decent centre, a standout at U20 level. Conrad Smith style of player.
14 Keith Earls => Andrew Conway. A nose for the tryline, decent in the air. A solid option but the ABs won't be losing sleep.
15 Rob Kearney => Hugo Keenan. I really rate Keenan. He is Ireland's answer to Ben Smith, but a bit less threatening on attack. But in the air, positioning, tactical awareness etc first rate. Unlucky not to make the Lions wider squad IMO.The current team is more dynamic than the 2019 RWC quarter-final team, I wonder about their nous under pressure though. NZ should relentlessly target the ageing Sexton and the defensively-suspect Lowe.
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Ireland 2019/2021
1 Cian Healy => Andrew Porter. Has switched back to LH, where he terrorised NZ at U20 level, notably Tuungafasi if my memory serves me correctly.
2 Rory Best (Captain) => Ronan Kelleher. Hooker is not Ireland's strongest area. Decent enough but prone to throwing yips.
3 Tadhg Furlong => Tadgh Furlong. Best TH in world rugby, would stroll into the ABs team. Does all the core duties well and pretty decent in open play too.
4 Iain Henderson => Tadgh Beirne. Beirne is a lock/6. He is savage at the tackle/ruck for turnovers/penaltiey, and pretty athletic. Not sure how would go in a tight foward tussle though. Might make way altogether or move to 6 for Henderson
5 James Ryan => James Ryan. In his first season, Irish fans were comparing him to Retallick and Itoje. Has been quieter since then, and possibly at risk from Henderson. Still a pretty decent lock.
6 Peter O'Mahony => Caelan Doris. Doris I haven't seen so much of, but he's pretty athletic and a bigger player than O'Mahony.
7 Josh van der Flier => Josh Van der Flier. Reminds me of Marty Holah a bit. Very good player, but probably a tad underpowered for the very top level.
8 CJ Stander => Jack Conan. A rangy dynamic 8, offers a lot more in the loose than Stander. Qs still remain against dominant oppositon packs IMO. Stander was a unit, but pretty one-dimensional.
9 Conor Murray => Jamison Gibson-Park. Cf his NZ ruby career
10 Johnny Sexton => Johnny Sexton. Underated on this forum but a pretty decent 1st-five. Bit of a prat/prima donna though and now aged 36.
11 Jacob Stockdale => James Lowe. Cf his NZ rugby career
12 Robbie Henshaw => Bundee Aki. Cf his NZ rugby career
13 Garry Ringrose => Gary Ringrose. Pretty decent centre, a standout at U20 level. Conrad Smith style of player.
14 Keith Earls => Andrew Conway. A nose for the tryline, decent in the air. A solid option but the ABs won't be losing sleep.
15 Rob Kearney => Hugo Keenan. I really rate Keenan. He is Ireland's answer to Ben Smith, but a bit less threatening on attack. But in the air, positioning, tactical awareness etc first rate. Unlucky not to make the Lions wider squad IMO.The current team is more dynamic than the 2019 RWC quarter-final team, I wonder about their nous under pressure though. NZ should relentlessly target the ageing Sexton and the defensively-suspect Lowe.
@billy-tell Agree with that analysis. Assuming above is their starting XV their bench will most likely be Sheehan, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, O'Mahoney, Murray, Carbery and Earls.
Pretty strong. Carbery is a good player, though on the small side. Not seen much of Bealham, but he's doing well for Connacht.
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@billy-tell Agree with that analysis. Assuming above is their starting XV their bench will most likely be Sheehan, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, O'Mahoney, Murray, Carbery and Earls.
Pretty strong. Carbery is a good player, though on the small side. Not seen much of Bealham, but he's doing well for Connacht.
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@billy-tell Agree with that analysis. Assuming above is their starting XV their bench will most likely be Sheehan, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, O'Mahoney, Murray, Carbery and Earls.
Pretty strong. Carbery is a good player, though on the small side. Not seen much of Bealham, but he's doing well for Connacht.
Bench is weak
Healy, O’Mahoney, Murray and Earls are past it. Carbery out of form with having had a multitude of injuries. Bealham a bit meh. Henderson can be very good and Sheehan I haven’t seen play i think.
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@billy-tell said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Imo it will be a terrible selection if cane starts at 7. And a total lack of faith in those who have ably replaced him. Come back next season Sam. Your country will no doubt need you.
Not like they need him to be captain. Whitelock has that in hand, with Savea, Retallick ably supporting him. Cane shouldn't be anywhere near selection IMO. The Irish back row, and pack in general, are not to be underestimated or be used as a stepping stone on a long term injury comeback.
Will Aaron Smith make it straight back into the match day 23 is the bigger question. ABs would love to be able to bring him on in the closing stretch.
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Will Aaron Smith make it straight back into the match day 23 is the bigger question. ABs would love to be able to bring him on in the closing stretch.
Like Cane, Should he even be playing for ABs next season now? It wouldn't really be fair on him given the length of time he has been out - not to mention the people who've so ably filled in for him...
:fishing_pole: -
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Will Aaron Smith make it straight back into the match day 23 is the bigger question. ABs would love to be able to bring him on in the closing stretch.
Like Cane, Should he even be playing for ABs next season now? It wouldn't really be fair on him given the length of time he has been out - not to mention the people who've so ably filled in for him...
:fishing_pole:@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Will Aaron Smith make it straight back into the match day 23 is the bigger question. ABs would love to be able to bring him on in the closing stretch.
Like Cane, Should he even be playing for ABs next season now? It wouldn't really be fair on him given the length of time he has been out - not to mention the people who've so ably filled in for him...
:fishing_pole:A. He isn't injured or coming back from a long layoff
B. He doesn't have anyone who has played at his level so far since he returned to NZ.
C. Your bait is rancid.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Will Aaron Smith make it straight back into the match day 23 is the bigger question. ABs would love to be able to bring him on in the closing stretch.
Like Cane, Should he even be playing for ABs next season now? It wouldn't really be fair on him given the length of time he has been out - not to mention the people who've so ably filled in for him...
:fishing_pole:A. He isn't injured or coming back from a long layoff
B. He doesn't have anyone who has played at his level so far since he returned to NZ.
C. Your bait is rancid.
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Will Aaron Smith make it straight back into the match day 23 is the bigger question. ABs would love to be able to bring him on in the closing stretch.
Like Cane, Should he even be playing for ABs next season now? It wouldn't really be fair on him given the length of time he has been out - not to mention the people who've so ably filled in for him...
:fishing_pole:A. He isn't injured or coming back from a long layoff
B. He doesn't have anyone who has played at his level so far since he returned to NZ.
C. Your bait is rancid.
In all seriousness, I'd take a fit Sam Cane over any other 7 any day of the week. If he's selected in the 23 and comes thru 20 minutes or so against Ireland, I'd pick him to start against France.
I'd say the same for Nugget and wouldn't want him starting against a top tier nation when he been away for so long either.
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No need for Nugget to play this week. Big ask to hop off a long haul into a big test. Sure, if it was a WC situation then you'd do it but TJ and Christie are playing well enough (unless there's another injury we don't know about).
Would definitely keep him in play for the France game though. -
No need for Nugget to play this week. Big ask to hop off a long haul into a big test. Sure, if it was a WC situation then you'd do it but TJ and Christie are playing well enough (unless there's another injury we don't know about).
Would definitely keep him in play for the France game though.@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
No need for Nugget to play this week. Big ask to hop off a long haul into a big test. Sure, if it was a WC situation then you'd do it but TJ and Christie are playing well enough
I must be watching different games.
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@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
No need for Nugget to play this week. Big ask to hop off a long haul into a big test. Sure, if it was a WC situation then you'd do it but TJ and Christie are playing well enough
I must be watching different games.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
No need for Nugget to play this week. Big ask to hop off a long haul into a big test. Sure, if it was a WC situation then you'd do it but TJ and Christie are playing well enough
I must be watching different games.
I think Christie has proved himself and I would have him starting again and Smith on the bench to get 20-30 mins towards the end of the game.
TJP can carry water
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@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
@chris-b said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean Cane's had 100 minutes of (Tier 2) test rugby. That's been sufficient for plenty of people in the past.
It's not a requirement that he play, because we have other good options.
But, it won't surprise me if he plays - and it's probably more balanced for him to start than to be on the bench.
for me it comes down to how well he played in that tier 2 hit out and how much need we have, he was ok but far from stellar and we have other very solid options so will be surprised
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
No need for Nugget to play this week. Big ask to hop off a long haul into a big test. Sure, if it was a WC situation then you'd do it but TJ and Christie are playing well enough
I must be watching different games.
I think Christie has proved himself and I would have him starting again and Smith on the bench to get 20-30 mins towards the end of the game.
TJP can carry water
@hooroo said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
No need for Nugget to play this week. Big ask to hop off a long haul into a big test. Sure, if it was a WC situation then you'd do it but TJ and Christie are playing well enough
I must be watching different games.
I think Christie has proved himself and I would have him starting again and Smith on the bench to get 20-30 mins towards the end of the game.
TJP can carry water
Agree with this, against an organised defense that rushes up the last thing our 10 needs is loopy passes. I'd also definitely have A Smith on the bench to up the anti towards the end of the game, I'm sure he can handle 15 - 20 minutes of rugby and his pass alone will make a huge difference.
