Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew Razor has cleaned up in the SR over a long period of time.
Obviously clear game plans, good man management and eye for detail.
You heard the oft repeated phrase 'hasnt got international coaching experience'. This is rubbish.
Well now we've got mediocre results, losing to teams like never before, and the management have untold international experience.So what do we do if and/or when when Razor, like Mourhino with his great track record, doesn't turn out to be a messiah?
If Razor's win % isn't better than Foster's after 2 years, do we think we should sack him as well?
This sounds like the argument for not demoting Tana and replacing him with Leon.....
So if Razor (or another coach) produces results as bad as or worse that Foster's after 2 years, we just shrug our shoulders as he isn't called Ian Foster?
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
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@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
What? I am saying being afraid of change and accepting mediocrity is against the AB ethos.So you'd be calling for Robertson's (or any other coach's) sacking in 2 years if his win % isn't better than Foster's - as that is the question I posed.
You seem to be bending over backwards to accommodate Foster yet I am still waiting for any evidence he deserves to be there other than being a buddy of the people making the decisions.
I'm not accommodating Foster or any other potential coach at all - and not convinced there's a conspiracy in the NZRFU to keep him in place.
Certainly not convinced swapping coaches in itself is a magic solution which, like a rabbit out of a hat, will fix much: more that it will paper over cracks for a few games while the underlying problems will fester away and get worse.
@victor-meldrew I would call it a 'rabbit out of a hat' approach selecting a HC who hasn't got a long term successful coaching record
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@victor-meldrew I would call it a 'rabbit out of a hat' approach selecting a HC who hasn't got a long term successful coaching record
@victor-meldrew I would call it a 'rabbit out of a hat' approach selecting a HC who hasn't got a long term successful coaching record
Isn't that two separate things?
I was pointing out that It doesn't follow that a coach with a successful career will magically turn round a team when here's serious underlying problems.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Well it might be an idea to have KPI with a high-paying leadership position of national importance so I'd say yes, if he loses as often as Foster and doesn't develop the team he should go too.
I agree with your consistency, but KPI's are very crude and the NZRFU have to look at a heck of lot more to look at and fix that just the AB coaches record.
how about gate takings if the fans stop supporting the players by attending? I'm not saying it will happen but it might.
Edit: KPI are crude, sure, so what highly sophisticated criteria did NZ Rugby (NZRU) use then?
Here is part of the Head Coach JD for Moana Pasifika
https://www.nzrugby.co.nz/assets/Moana-Pasifika-Head-Coach-JD-2021.pdf
Reporting to the General Manager, and ultimately the Moana Pasifika Board, you will be responsible for coaching the team on and off the field to a standard of excellence that will compete at Super Rugby level, enhancing the reputation of the Team, the Super Rugby competition, and Pacific Island rugby. To lead the Moana Pasifika Team (Team) players and coaches, to maximise their performance in all aspects of the game. In partnership with the General Manager and Head of Athletic Performance & Pathways, the Head Coach will support the development and delivery of the High-Performance environment with a multidisciplinary team that provides a best practise for Players to develop and reach their fullest potentialNow if the AB coach JD is similar, I don't see much nuance or sophistication.
None of those are really KPI's. No measures
That JD is full of meaningless management consultant waffle. If that sort of meaningless, mindless stuff is doing the rounds in NZ Rugby, then no wonder we are fucked.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Not a quick fix but a necessary one. Ole & Foz = jobs for the boys, no track record to back it up, wheels fell off, sacked and should be sacked.And like Man U, we say that about the next coach (like Mourhino, with a great track record), and the one after that, and the one after that?
How many years of coach blamings and sackings do you think we need before we start asking if there's underlying problems to be addressed?
You make good points, but one thing I will say is that, because of the top-down nature of NZ rugby, the AB coach can often have a big say in the development at the lower levels of the game. Is it any coincidence that post-2004, we had a pipeline of good quality front rowers after GH had identified that as a work on? Or how after 2009, we had a generation of wingers and full backs who were all excellent under the high ball? It's because of the weaknesses in those areas identified by GH at the top level that coaches at all levels below that sought to develop the next generation that was strong in those areas.
I agree 100%.
What was the time-lag between GH saying we needed good props and getting them in '04. and the same for the wingers in '09?
Is the co-ordination between the NZRFU, AB coaching staff & lower levels working properly? Because unless it is working well, no change of coach will fix the problems
For the wingers it was pretty quick. Granted, we already had guys who we could call on like Cory Jane etc. But the next batch from 2012 after GH left were all sold in the air.
@junior said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Not a quick fix but a necessary one. Ole & Foz = jobs for the boys, no track record to back it up, wheels fell off, sacked and should be sacked.And like Man U, we say that about the next coach (like Mourhino, with a great track record), and the one after that, and the one after that?
How many years of coach blamings and sackings do you think we need before we start asking if there's underlying problems to be addressed?
You make good points, but one thing I will say is that, because of the top-down nature of NZ rugby, the AB coach can often have a big say in the development at the lower levels of the game. Is it any coincidence that post-2004, we had a pipeline of good quality front rowers after GH had identified that as a work on? Or how after 2009, we had a generation of wingers and full backs who were all excellent under the high ball? It's because of the weaknesses in those areas identified by GH at the top level that coaches at all levels below that sought to develop the next generation that was strong in those areas.
I agree 100%.
What was the time-lag between GH saying we needed good props and getting them in '04. and the same for the wingers in '09?
Is the co-ordination between the NZRFU, AB coaching staff & lower levels working properly? Because unless it is working well, no change of coach will fix the problems
For the wingers it was pretty quick. Granted, we already had guys who we could call on like Cory Jane etc. But the next batch from 2012 after GH left were all sold in the air.
So a good few years to get sorted then. Be good to know if Hansen did something similar or just let things slide.
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@victor-meldrew I would call it a 'rabbit out of a hat' approach selecting a HC who hasn't got a long term successful coaching record
Isn't that two separate things?
I was pointing out that It doesn't follow that a coach with a successful career will magically turn round a team when here's serious underlying problems.
@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
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None of those are really KPI's. No measures
That JD is full of meaningless management consultant waffle. If that sort of meaningless, mindless stuff is doing the rounds in NZ Rugby, then no wonder we are fucked.
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
None of those are really KPI's. No measures
That JD is full of meaningless management consultant waffle. If that sort of meaningless, mindless stuff is doing the rounds in NZ Rugby, then no wonder we are fucked.
That is my point.
Although the AB coach one may be secret because it is so good. -
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
You'd be happy to keep a coach with just as bad a record as Foster after two years on the basis of "potential"?
Seriously?
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@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
Absolutely. Been the same since 2016 - been banging on about that for ages
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
You'd be happy to keep a coach with just as bad a record as Foster after two years on the basis of "potential"?
Seriously?
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
You'd be happy to keep a coach with just as bad a record as Foster after two years on the basis of "potential"?
Seriously?
No that's not what I'm saying.
What i'm saying is - there's the potential (or risk) that the new coach is going to have just as bad a run of results as Foster. I'd rather take that risk than stick with Foster.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
You'd be happy to keep a coach with just as bad a record as Foster after two years on the basis of "potential"?
Seriously?
No that's not what I'm saying.
What i'm saying is - there's the potential (or risk) that the new coach is going to have just as bad a run of results as Foster. I'd rather take that risk than stick with Foster.
@kiwimurph In other words it's time for someone else
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@kiwimurph In other words it's time for someone else
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph In other words it's time for someone else
Yes. I fail to see the value in continuinty when continuity gets us the same results that we would expect any other candidate to deliver.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Well it might be an idea to have KPI with a high-paying leadership position of national importance so I'd say yes, if he loses as often as Foster and doesn't develop the team he should go too.
I agree with your consistency, but KPI's are very crude and the NZRFU have to look at a heck of lot more to look at and fix that just the AB coaches record.
how about gate takings if the fans stop supporting the players by attending? I'm not saying it will happen but it might.
Edit: KPI are crude, sure, so what highly sophisticated criteria did NZ Rugby (NZRU) use then?
Here is part of the Head Coach JD for Moana Pasifika
https://www.nzrugby.co.nz/assets/Moana-Pasifika-Head-Coach-JD-2021.pdf
Reporting to the General Manager, and ultimately the Moana Pasifika Board, you will be responsible for coaching the team on and off the field to a standard of excellence that will compete at Super Rugby level, enhancing the reputation of the Team, the Super Rugby competition, and Pacific Island rugby. To lead the Moana Pasifika Team (Team) players and coaches, to maximise their performance in all aspects of the game. In partnership with the General Manager and Head of Athletic Performance & Pathways, the Head Coach will support the development and delivery of the High-Performance environment with a multidisciplinary team that provides a best practise for Players to develop and reach their fullest potentialNow if the AB coach JD is similar, I don't see much nuance or sophistication.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
You'd be happy to keep a coach with just as bad a record as Foster after two years on the basis of "potential"?
Seriously?
No that's not what I'm saying.
What i'm saying is - there's the potential (or risk) that the new coach is going to have just as bad a run of results as Foster. I'd rather take that risk than stick with Foster.
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
You'd be happy to keep a coach with just as bad a record as Foster after two years on the basis of "potential"?
Seriously?
No that's not what I'm saying.
What i'm saying is - there's the potential (or risk) that the new coach is going to have just as bad a run of results as Foster. I'd rather take that risk than stick with Foster.
And you'd want him sacked immediately if he was as bad as Foster after just under 2 years, right?
Wouldn't it be better to look at reducing the underlying causes of those risks and increasing the potential for success now than after a couple of years when we might have to sack the coach (again)?
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@nostrildamus A lot of that is waffle. Coaching is about performances and winning. I hope part of the job expectation for the All Blacks Head Coach is to win lots of silverware and be very competitive indeed at World Cups.
@sparky said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus A lot of that is waffle. Coaching is about performances and winning. I hope part of the job expectation for the All Blacks Head Coach is to win lots of silverware and be very competitive indeed at World Cups.
If Foster had a JD as meaningless at the one for the Pasifika coach, then I'd give swinging the axe a wee bit higher than Foster priority.
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@tewaio In 2004 Henry came in and said "we need a revolution in how we play, like after the 68 Lions tour". We changed our forward play and everything else. Since 2015, Hansen and his descendants have been so arrogant about playing like we own the ball and don't have to adjust. It's infuriating.
@tim said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@tewaio In 2004 Henry came in and said "we need a revolution in how we play, like after the 68 Lions tour". We changed our forward play and everything else. Since 2015, Hansen and his descendants have been so arrogant about playing like we own the ball and don't have to adjust. It's infuriating.
Don't you mean the '71 Lions tour of NZ?
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@junior said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Not a quick fix but a necessary one. Ole & Foz = jobs for the boys, no track record to back it up, wheels fell off, sacked and should be sacked.And like Man U, we say that about the next coach (like Mourhino, with a great track record), and the one after that, and the one after that?
How many years of coach blamings and sackings do you think we need before we start asking if there's underlying problems to be addressed?
You make good points, but one thing I will say is that, because of the top-down nature of NZ rugby, the AB coach can often have a big say in the development at the lower levels of the game. Is it any coincidence that post-2004, we had a pipeline of good quality front rowers after GH had identified that as a work on? Or how after 2009, we had a generation of wingers and full backs who were all excellent under the high ball? It's because of the weaknesses in those areas identified by GH at the top level that coaches at all levels below that sought to develop the next generation that was strong in those areas.
I agree 100%.
What was the time-lag between GH saying we needed good props and getting them in '04. and the same for the wingers in '09?
Is the co-ordination between the NZRFU, AB coaching staff & lower levels working properly? Because unless it is working well, no change of coach will fix the problems
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Not a quick fix but a necessary one. Ole & Foz = jobs for the boys, no track record to back it up, wheels fell off, sacked and should be sacked.And like Man U, we say that about the next coach (like Mourhino, with a great track record), and the one after that, and the one after that?
How many years of coach blamings and sackings do you think we need before we start asking if there's underlying problems to be addressed?
You make good points, but one thing I will say is that, because of the top-down nature of NZ rugby, the AB coach can often have a big say in the development at the lower levels of the game. Is it any coincidence that post-2004, we had a pipeline of good quality front rowers after GH had identified that as a work on? Or how after 2009, we had a generation of wingers and full backs who were all excellent under the high ball? It's because of the weaknesses in those areas identified by GH at the top level that coaches at all levels below that sought to develop the next generation that was strong in those areas.
I agree 100%.
What was the time-lag between GH saying we needed good props and getting them in '04. and the same for the wingers in '09?
Is the co-ordination between the NZRFU, AB coaching staff & lower levels working properly? Because unless it is working well, no change of coach will fix the problems
GH's found some solutions to his winger problem by the time the WC 2011 came around. By then, he'd changed a centre into a wing (Kahui), had recently unearthed a new wing (Jane) and a new fullback had burst onto the scene (Dagg). He identified what he wanted and either coached an existing player to suit his gameplan or promoted players with the attributes he wanted to see.
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@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
Agree with this. The team is capable of quality moments. They are just v inconsistent.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew Razor has cleaned up in the SR over a long period of time.
Obviously clear game plans, good man management and eye for detail.
You heard the oft repeated phrase 'hasnt got international coaching experience'. This is rubbish.
Well now we've got mediocre results, losing to teams like never before, and the management have untold international experience.So what do we do if and/or when when Razor, like Mourhino with his great track record, doesn't turn out to be a messiah?
If Razor's win % isn't better than Foster's after 2 years, do we think we should sack him as well?
This sounds like the argument for not demoting Tana and replacing him with Leon.....
So if Razor (or another coach) produces results as bad as or worse that Foster's after 2 years, we just shrug our shoulders as he isn't called Ian Foster?
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew Razor has cleaned up in the SR over a long period of time.
Obviously clear game plans, good man management and eye for detail.
You heard the oft repeated phrase 'hasnt got international coaching experience'. This is rubbish.
Well now we've got mediocre results, losing to teams like never before, and the management have untold international experience.So what do we do if and/or when when Razor, like Mourhino with his great track record, doesn't turn out to be a messiah?
If Razor's win % isn't better than Foster's after 2 years, do we think we should sack him as well?
This sounds like the argument for not demoting Tana and replacing him with Leon.....
So if Razor (or another coach) produces results as bad as or worse that Foster's after 2 years, we just shrug our shoulders as he isn't called Ian Foster?
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
South Africa have been good for 3-4 years now. They are the ABs greatest foe and have never been scared to take them on.
The Oz and Argentina losses last year were the worst performances. ABs rectified those results by sweeping them this year.
Ireland and France are both strong right now. Especially at home in front of a vocal fanbase.
The key for me now will be if Ireland rock up next year and win a series. That would be unthinkable. Last team to beat NZ in a home test series (more than a one-off test)? France 94 no? Then again, some good came out of that series loss!!
