All Blacks 2021
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
Just to clarify @NZbloke how DO you beat the rush defence?
Obviously it's with the use of the
boxcrosschip kick!@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
Just to clarify @NZbloke how DO you beat the rush defence?
Obviously it's with the use of the
boxcrosschip kick!Remember the FBL experiment?
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@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
Just to clarify @NZbloke how DO you beat the rush defence?
Obviously it's with the use of the
boxcrosschip kick!Remember the FBL experiment?
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
Just to clarify @NZbloke how DO you beat the rush defence?
Obviously it's with the use of the
boxcrosschip kick!Remember the FBL experiment?
Trying not to
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@rotated said in All Blacks 2021:
I'm in favour of a Razor appointment in the style of Rassie, Cheika or Mitch given where we are in the cycle. He is well suited to shake things up and will improve the side in the short term. But we have to be realistic that over the medium to long term the odds are against him.
Change/shake-ups can often bring a temporary improvement ( it's called the Hawthorne Effect) and that, along with a cold, hard look at top level rugby in NZ, is probably the best way forward.
Just swapping out Foster isn't going to fix the bigger problems.
That doesn't mean we should accept mediocrity & continue persisting with our underwhelming 'continuity' option.
The last season was more farcical than most on here will even admit. Foster only had 4 matches facing genuinely top opposition. We lost 3/4 of those tests. We played 5 tests against T2 teams to pad the numbers + a game against Wales C. I can't think of any other year where we've played so many T2 tests in recent memory. To take that further, we shouldn't be judging ourselves on results against teams we've never lost to once ever. We've played Fiji twice, Tonga, Italy, USA, Argentina (ranked 8th) who are having an abysmal season & an inexperienced rudderless Wallabies (ranked 6th) without all their key game influencers from the SA matches.. 3 times in August.
Foster currently has a win-rate of 71% after playing objectively the most poorly prepared and weakened opposition (besides SA, France/Ire) of any All Black coach in the professional era. Cobbled together teams missing vast amounts of overseas experience and poorly prepared due to Covid restrictions.
We had our worst ever performance against Fiji, being completely dominated at breakdown, and embarrassed there against Italy.
This team continues to look poorly organized, plays with terrible tactics and shows no sign of improving or changing the outdated patterns that have been continued stubbornly for several years now.
The reality is, the All Blacks played just four matches against genuinely top-tier opposition in 2021 & got completely out-coached/outplayed on each occasion. No amount of glossing over can justify the poor game-planning, complete lack of discernable structure of our team, and the cluttered & confused forward orientation.. both on attack and defense.
In contrast to NZ under Foster, the Boks have great coherence as a team unit and exhibit genuine structure on attack and defense, you can observe legitimate co-ordination and actual cohesion in their forward play/patterns.
Well thought out, resourceful strategies to exploit opposition (who would've thought??), proper shape & alignment between individual players on attack and defense. The All Blacks are currently a structureless rabble in comparison...
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
That doesn't mean we should accept mediocrity & continue persisting with our underwhelming 'continuity' option.
I never suggested we should.
I'm just pointing out that to blame and locate the date of the slide in AB performance, and lack of quality players in NZ rugby, entirely on one bloke's presence in the coaching set-up is nonsensical - as is thinking all those problems will be magically fixed by one or two other blokes.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
That doesn't mean we should accept mediocrity & continue persisting with our underwhelming 'continuity' option.
I never suggested we should.
I'm just pointing out that to blame and locate the date of the slide in AB performance, and lack of quality players in NZ rugby, entirely on one bloke's presence in the coaching set-up is nonsensical - as is thinking all those problems will be magically fixed by one or two other blokes.
@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone more qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 49% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then, in a stark contrast, Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, since Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
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@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone more qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 49% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then, in a stark contrast, Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, since Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew so when a former player under Foster at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone better qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 50% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then in stark contrast, the Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, after Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
You're quoting a bloke who was once coached for a few weeks by Foster nearly 20 years ago and using that as proof for your assertion that each and every problem with AB rugby is uniquely down to one man? Seriously?
Do some analysis to identify what the real problems might be rather than cherry-pick and do google searches for "evidence" to support what is, frankly, a rather loopy theory.
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@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone more qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 49% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then, in a stark contrast, Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, since Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
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@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone more qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 49% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then, in a stark contrast, Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, since Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone more qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 49% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then, in a stark contrast, Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, since Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
And it's an opinion that the player is entitled to, and I have read Duane Monkley sayig how good a coach he thinks Foster is, as does Plumtree who has worked with a good number of top coaches reckons he is best coach he has worked with. So good to hear but we can read and believe which ones suit our argument.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/kiwi-coach-labels-ian-foster-as-best-head-coach-hes-worked-with/ -
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone more qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 49% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then, in a stark contrast, Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, since Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
And it's an opinion that the player is entitled to, and I have read Duane Monkley sayig how good a coach he thinks Foster is, as does Plumtree who has worked with a good number of top coaches reckons he is best coach he has worked with. So good to hear but we can read and believe which ones suit our argument.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/kiwi-coach-labels-ian-foster-as-best-head-coach-hes-worked-with/@dan54 '"He was quite a step above both Mitch [Mitchell] and Gatty [Gatland] at that particular time, from my experiences.'
That's hardly a glowing endorsement.
The contracting issue is a fair point, but none of which addresses the fact we're playing yesterday's gameplan.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
Just to clarify @NZbloke how DO you beat the rush defence?
Obviously it's with the use of the
boxcrosschip kick!@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
Just to clarify @NZbloke how DO you beat the rush defence?
Obviously it's with the use of the
boxcrosschip kick!based on his reply to @chris im going to assume @NZbloke 's solution is to tackle one of our own players, i dont see how it will help myself but i dont have his vision
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@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone more qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 49% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then, in a stark contrast, Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, since Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
Who was that player? Devine was a Blues player wasn't he? And now he is associated with click bait journalism. Hardly any concern at all.
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@dan54 '"He was quite a step above both Mitch [Mitchell] and Gatty [Gatland] at that particular time, from my experiences.'
That's hardly a glowing endorsement.
The contracting issue is a fair point, but none of which addresses the fact we're playing yesterday's gameplan.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 '"He was quite a step above both Mitch [Mitchell] and Gatty [Gatland] at that particular time, from my experiences.'
That's hardly a glowing endorsement.
The contracting issue is a fair point, but none of which addresses the fact we're playing yesterday's gameplan.
Mate read my post, it's Plumtree's opinion only, though I suspect he has more experience than you and I.
I see you have conveniently missed the fact he has said the best he has worked with, and that includes Schmidt and Joseph I believe, but you have cherry picked Gatland and Mitchell to prove a point? Neither who I am a particular fan of, but both have pretty good resumes'
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 '"He was quite a step above both Mitch [Mitchell] and Gatty [Gatland] at that particular time, from my experiences.'
That's hardly a glowing endorsement.
The contracting issue is a fair point, but none of which addresses the fact we're playing yesterday's gameplan.
Mate read my post, it's Plumtree's opinion only, though I suspect he has more experience than you and I.
I see you have conveniently missed the fact he has said the best he has worked with, and that includes Schmidt and Joseph I believe, but you have cherry picked Gatland and Mitchell to prove a point? Neither who I am a particular fan of, but both have pretty good resumes'
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 '"He was quite a step above both Mitch [Mitchell] and Gatty [Gatland] at that particular time, from my experiences.'
That's hardly a glowing endorsement.
The contracting issue is a fair point, but none of which addresses the fact we're playing yesterday's gameplan.
Mate read my post, it's Plumtree's opinion only, though I suspect he has more experience than you and I.
I see you have conveniently missed the fact he has said the best he has worked with, and that includes Schmidt and Joseph I believe, but you have cherry picked Gatland and Mitchell to prove a point? Neither who I am a particular fan of, but both have pretty good resumes'
My quote of Duane Monkley comes from the stuff article. And neither Mitch nor Gats strike me as tactically gifted.
Plumtree's quote is about culture.
Perhaps read your own post.
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Sometimes I wonder whether Dan54 and Victor Meldrew are some of Ian's relations, as I haven't come across such unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists of Fozzie on this forum, nor anywhere else (obviously, with the exception of old mate Shag Hansen..) In many ways, I can't help but admire their persistence and ability to not allow external viewpoints to influence their positions.
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Sometimes I wonder whether Dan54 and Victor Meldrew are some of Ian's relations, as I haven't come across such unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists of Fozzie on this forum, nor anywhere else (obviously, with the exception of old mate Shag Hansen..) In many ways, I can't help but admire their persistence and ability to not allow external viewpoints to influence their positions.
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
It’s Fun sometimes Fozzie bashing.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
It’s Fun sometimes Fozzie bashing.
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
It’s Fun sometimes Fozzie bashing.
What are you, Razor's mum?
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@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
It’s Fun sometimes Fozzie bashing.
What are you, Razor's mum?
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
It’s Fun sometimes Fozzie bashing.
What are you, Razor's mum?
No she likes Fozzie,he eats all her treats she makes.
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Sometimes I wonder whether Dan54 and Victor Meldrew are some of Ian's relations, as I haven't come across such unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists of Fozzie on this forum, nor anywhere else (obviously, with the exception of old mate Shag Hansen..) In many ways, I can't help but admire their persistence and ability to not allow external viewpoints to influence their positions.
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Sometimes I wonder whether Dan54 and Victor Meldrew are some of Ian's relations, as I haven't come across such unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists of Fozzie on this forum
So anyone who disagrees with your argument that each and all of the AB's problems since 2016 are down to one man, and one man only, is an apologist for that bloke?
Sound logic.
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@rotated said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).
Yeah, Razor is an excellent coach & would do a really good job as head coach for the AB's - he has good rugby nous, so certainly wouldn't need to rely heavily on a very experienced coaching assistant - it's not vital if hasn't coached another country overseas, also the bloke is in his mid to late 40's & has won 4 or 5 Super Rugby titles... NZ Super Rugby is based on a really fast paced game, the same style the ABs play, so with all his experience as a Super Rugby coach he's the type of bloke we need, would have liked a Robertson/Brown combo, would be a top mix as one use to play in the forwards & the other in the backs.
Where does this confidence come from? With Smith, Henry, Hansen, Jones, Gatland, McKenzie, Wyllie, Hart and Deans (whichever job you count) shit hit the fan during their first international appointment. Why would Razor be any different and things go to custard like his second campaign with the U20s?
Also why are we so sure that he isn't going to follow the trend of most (but not all) Crusaders/Canterbury coaches having major issues once moving to a different environment?
I'm in favour of a Razor appointment in the style of Rassie, Cheika or Mitch given where we are in the cycle. He is well suited to shake things up and will improve the side in the short term. But we have to be realistic that over the medium to long term the odds are against him.
International Head Coach is very different from even top Club/Provincial/SR coaching.
Selection, lack of access to players, expectations, man-management, crazy levels of politics and also mind-games?Henry, Hansen, Smith, Eddie Jones all went through that. Schmidt too now. Failing is part of learning
I'd love to see Scott Robertson as AB coach downstream but see prior international experience as hugely useful
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
Henry, Hansen, Smith, Eddie Jones all went through that. Schmidt too now. Failing is part of learning.
I'd love to see Scott Robertson as AB coach downstream but see prior international experience as hugely useful.
Ian Foster never coached overseas and he has walked into the All Black head coaching job. Why on earth would the far more successful Robertson need to coach overseas when Foster didn't? The sooner we discard this incredibly simplistic, black and white thinking the better... It's more about innovation and application.
If makes absolutely no sense to punish our elite players if they go overseas, by ruling them ineligible for the AB's, whilst simultaneously demanding that our elite coaches head overseas. Why give away our most precious intellectual capital for free? Once a coach leaves our shores they may never return. The argument that a quality coach needs a few mediocre years in charge of another test nation is stupid and dated, and was really only ever a 'thing' to ensure Graham Henry and Steve Hansen's tenures went unchallenged.
I don't believe that one needs to head offshore to learn more necessarily. Robertson strikes me as innovative and open to new approaches - someone who is constantly looking for ways to learn and improve. Look at examples like the Crusaders working with one of the NH teams to do a mock analysis of how they would approach playing each other to get insights they would otherwise miss, or him bringing O'Gara into the mix.
Getting out of the comfort zone can be equally achieved by how you approach things and valuing diversity in a coaching group as much as heading off-shore. A black and white approach is much too arbitrary I think...
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
Henry, Hansen, Smith, Eddie Jones all went through that. Schmidt too now. Failing is part of learning.
I'd love to see Scott Robertson as AB coach downstream but see prior international experience as hugely useful.
Ian Foster never coached overseas and he has walked into the All Black head coaching job. Why on earth would the far more successful Robertson need to coach overseas when Foster didn't? The sooner we discard this incredibly simplistic, black and white thinking the better... It's more about innovation and application.
If makes absolutely no sense to punish our elite players if they go overseas, by ruling them ineligible for the AB's, whilst simultaneously demanding that our elite coaches head overseas. Why give away our most precious intellectual capital for free? Once a coach leaves our shores they may never return. The argument that a quality coach needs a few mediocre years in charge of another test nation is stupid and dated, and was really only ever a 'thing' to ensure Graham Henry and Steve Hansen's tenures went unchallenged.
I don't believe that one needs to head offshore to learn more necessarily. Robertson strikes me as innovative and open to new approaches - someone who is constantly looking for ways to learn and improve. Look at examples like the Crusaders working with one of the NH teams to do a mock analysis of how they would approach playing each other to get insights they would otherwise miss, or him bringing O'Gara into the mix.
Getting out of the comfort zone can be equally achieved by how you approach things and valuing diversity in a coaching group as much as heading off-shore. A black and white approach is much too arbitrary I think...
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Why give away our most precious intellectual capital for free? Once a coach leaves our shores they may never return.
I agree that giving away our precious IP is a key factor that NZ Rugby needs to look at and poss. do something about. Not too sure, though, how that fits with your argument that every single AB problem is solely down to Foster.
I don't believe that one needs to head offshore to learn more necessarily. Robertson strikes me as innovative and open to new approaches - someone who is constantly looking for ways to learn and improve. Look at examples like the Crusaders working with one of the NH teams to do a mock analysis of how they would approach playing each other to get insights they would otherwise miss, or him bringing O'Gara into the mix.
So your argument now is that giving away our precious IP is OK as long as it's done by Robertson and he hasn't left the country?
