All Blacks 2021
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@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone more qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 49% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then, in a stark contrast, Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, since Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
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@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone more qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 49% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then, in a stark contrast, Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, since Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone more qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 49% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then, in a stark contrast, Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, since Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
And it's an opinion that the player is entitled to, and I have read Duane Monkley sayig how good a coach he thinks Foster is, as does Plumtree who has worked with a good number of top coaches reckons he is best coach he has worked with. So good to hear but we can read and believe which ones suit our argument.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/kiwi-coach-labels-ian-foster-as-best-head-coach-hes-worked-with/ -
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone more qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 49% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then, in a stark contrast, Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, since Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
And it's an opinion that the player is entitled to, and I have read Duane Monkley sayig how good a coach he thinks Foster is, as does Plumtree who has worked with a good number of top coaches reckons he is best coach he has worked with. So good to hear but we can read and believe which ones suit our argument.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/kiwi-coach-labels-ian-foster-as-best-head-coach-hes-worked-with/@dan54 '"He was quite a step above both Mitch [Mitchell] and Gatty [Gatland] at that particular time, from my experiences.'
That's hardly a glowing endorsement.
The contracting issue is a fair point, but none of which addresses the fact we're playing yesterday's gameplan.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
Just to clarify @NZbloke how DO you beat the rush defence?
Obviously it's with the use of the
boxcrosschip kick!@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
Just to clarify @NZbloke how DO you beat the rush defence?
Obviously it's with the use of the
boxcrosschip kick!based on his reply to @chris im going to assume @NZbloke 's solution is to tackle one of our own players, i dont see how it will help myself but i dont have his vision
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@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
“It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”
You don't think that we could possibly see a significant improvement in performance by appointing someone more qualified?
After all, Chiefs won just 49% of their matches between 2004-2011 under Foster's coaching (encompassing 108 games in total).
Then, in a stark contrast, Chiefs went on to win 69% of their matches between 2012-2017, since Foster had departed...
Isn't that sufficient evidence to suggest to you that the majority of our problems lie with the current coaching staff?
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew so when a former player of Foster's at the Chiefs gives a scathing assessment of his coaching methods that isn't of any concern to you?
Who was that player? Devine was a Blues player wasn't he? And now he is associated with click bait journalism. Hardly any concern at all.
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@dan54 '"He was quite a step above both Mitch [Mitchell] and Gatty [Gatland] at that particular time, from my experiences.'
That's hardly a glowing endorsement.
The contracting issue is a fair point, but none of which addresses the fact we're playing yesterday's gameplan.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 '"He was quite a step above both Mitch [Mitchell] and Gatty [Gatland] at that particular time, from my experiences.'
That's hardly a glowing endorsement.
The contracting issue is a fair point, but none of which addresses the fact we're playing yesterday's gameplan.
Mate read my post, it's Plumtree's opinion only, though I suspect he has more experience than you and I.
I see you have conveniently missed the fact he has said the best he has worked with, and that includes Schmidt and Joseph I believe, but you have cherry picked Gatland and Mitchell to prove a point? Neither who I am a particular fan of, but both have pretty good resumes'
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 '"He was quite a step above both Mitch [Mitchell] and Gatty [Gatland] at that particular time, from my experiences.'
That's hardly a glowing endorsement.
The contracting issue is a fair point, but none of which addresses the fact we're playing yesterday's gameplan.
Mate read my post, it's Plumtree's opinion only, though I suspect he has more experience than you and I.
I see you have conveniently missed the fact he has said the best he has worked with, and that includes Schmidt and Joseph I believe, but you have cherry picked Gatland and Mitchell to prove a point? Neither who I am a particular fan of, but both have pretty good resumes'
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 '"He was quite a step above both Mitch [Mitchell] and Gatty [Gatland] at that particular time, from my experiences.'
That's hardly a glowing endorsement.
The contracting issue is a fair point, but none of which addresses the fact we're playing yesterday's gameplan.
Mate read my post, it's Plumtree's opinion only, though I suspect he has more experience than you and I.
I see you have conveniently missed the fact he has said the best he has worked with, and that includes Schmidt and Joseph I believe, but you have cherry picked Gatland and Mitchell to prove a point? Neither who I am a particular fan of, but both have pretty good resumes'
My quote of Duane Monkley comes from the stuff article. And neither Mitch nor Gats strike me as tactically gifted.
Plumtree's quote is about culture.
Perhaps read your own post.
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Sometimes I wonder whether Dan54 and Victor Meldrew are some of Ian's relations, as I haven't come across such unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists of Fozzie on this forum, nor anywhere else (obviously, with the exception of old mate Shag Hansen..) In many ways, I can't help but admire their persistence and ability to not allow external viewpoints to influence their positions.
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Sometimes I wonder whether Dan54 and Victor Meldrew are some of Ian's relations, as I haven't come across such unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists of Fozzie on this forum, nor anywhere else (obviously, with the exception of old mate Shag Hansen..) In many ways, I can't help but admire their persistence and ability to not allow external viewpoints to influence their positions.
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
It’s Fun sometimes Fozzie bashing.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
It’s Fun sometimes Fozzie bashing.
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
It’s Fun sometimes Fozzie bashing.
What are you, Razor's mum?
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@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
It’s Fun sometimes Fozzie bashing.
What are you, Razor's mum?
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists
Just because people disagree with lazy Fozzie bashing, doesn't make them apologists.
It’s Fun sometimes Fozzie bashing.
What are you, Razor's mum?
No she likes Fozzie,he eats all her treats she makes.
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Sometimes I wonder whether Dan54 and Victor Meldrew are some of Ian's relations, as I haven't come across such unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists of Fozzie on this forum, nor anywhere else (obviously, with the exception of old mate Shag Hansen..) In many ways, I can't help but admire their persistence and ability to not allow external viewpoints to influence their positions.
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Sometimes I wonder whether Dan54 and Victor Meldrew are some of Ian's relations, as I haven't come across such unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists of Fozzie on this forum
So anyone who disagrees with your argument that each and all of the AB's problems since 2016 are down to one man, and one man only, is an apologist for that bloke?
Sound logic.
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@rotated said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).
Yeah, Razor is an excellent coach & would do a really good job as head coach for the AB's - he has good rugby nous, so certainly wouldn't need to rely heavily on a very experienced coaching assistant - it's not vital if hasn't coached another country overseas, also the bloke is in his mid to late 40's & has won 4 or 5 Super Rugby titles... NZ Super Rugby is based on a really fast paced game, the same style the ABs play, so with all his experience as a Super Rugby coach he's the type of bloke we need, would have liked a Robertson/Brown combo, would be a top mix as one use to play in the forwards & the other in the backs.
Where does this confidence come from? With Smith, Henry, Hansen, Jones, Gatland, McKenzie, Wyllie, Hart and Deans (whichever job you count) shit hit the fan during their first international appointment. Why would Razor be any different and things go to custard like his second campaign with the U20s?
Also why are we so sure that he isn't going to follow the trend of most (but not all) Crusaders/Canterbury coaches having major issues once moving to a different environment?
I'm in favour of a Razor appointment in the style of Rassie, Cheika or Mitch given where we are in the cycle. He is well suited to shake things up and will improve the side in the short term. But we have to be realistic that over the medium to long term the odds are against him.
International Head Coach is very different from even top Club/Provincial/SR coaching.
Selection, lack of access to players, expectations, man-management, crazy levels of politics and also mind-games?Henry, Hansen, Smith, Eddie Jones all went through that. Schmidt too now. Failing is part of learning
I'd love to see Scott Robertson as AB coach downstream but see prior international experience as hugely useful
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
Henry, Hansen, Smith, Eddie Jones all went through that. Schmidt too now. Failing is part of learning.
I'd love to see Scott Robertson as AB coach downstream but see prior international experience as hugely useful.
Ian Foster never coached overseas and he has walked into the All Black head coaching job. Why on earth would the far more successful Robertson need to coach overseas when Foster didn't? The sooner we discard this incredibly simplistic, black and white thinking the better... It's more about innovation and application.
If makes absolutely no sense to punish our elite players if they go overseas, by ruling them ineligible for the AB's, whilst simultaneously demanding that our elite coaches head overseas. Why give away our most precious intellectual capital for free? Once a coach leaves our shores they may never return. The argument that a quality coach needs a few mediocre years in charge of another test nation is stupid and dated, and was really only ever a 'thing' to ensure Graham Henry and Steve Hansen's tenures went unchallenged.
I don't believe that one needs to head offshore to learn more necessarily. Robertson strikes me as innovative and open to new approaches - someone who is constantly looking for ways to learn and improve. Look at examples like the Crusaders working with one of the NH teams to do a mock analysis of how they would approach playing each other to get insights they would otherwise miss, or him bringing O'Gara into the mix.
Getting out of the comfort zone can be equally achieved by how you approach things and valuing diversity in a coaching group as much as heading off-shore. A black and white approach is much too arbitrary I think...
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
Henry, Hansen, Smith, Eddie Jones all went through that. Schmidt too now. Failing is part of learning.
I'd love to see Scott Robertson as AB coach downstream but see prior international experience as hugely useful.
Ian Foster never coached overseas and he has walked into the All Black head coaching job. Why on earth would the far more successful Robertson need to coach overseas when Foster didn't? The sooner we discard this incredibly simplistic, black and white thinking the better... It's more about innovation and application.
If makes absolutely no sense to punish our elite players if they go overseas, by ruling them ineligible for the AB's, whilst simultaneously demanding that our elite coaches head overseas. Why give away our most precious intellectual capital for free? Once a coach leaves our shores they may never return. The argument that a quality coach needs a few mediocre years in charge of another test nation is stupid and dated, and was really only ever a 'thing' to ensure Graham Henry and Steve Hansen's tenures went unchallenged.
I don't believe that one needs to head offshore to learn more necessarily. Robertson strikes me as innovative and open to new approaches - someone who is constantly looking for ways to learn and improve. Look at examples like the Crusaders working with one of the NH teams to do a mock analysis of how they would approach playing each other to get insights they would otherwise miss, or him bringing O'Gara into the mix.
Getting out of the comfort zone can be equally achieved by how you approach things and valuing diversity in a coaching group as much as heading off-shore. A black and white approach is much too arbitrary I think...
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Why give away our most precious intellectual capital for free? Once a coach leaves our shores they may never return.
I agree that giving away our precious IP is a key factor that NZ Rugby needs to look at and poss. do something about. Not too sure, though, how that fits with your argument that every single AB problem is solely down to Foster.
I don't believe that one needs to head offshore to learn more necessarily. Robertson strikes me as innovative and open to new approaches - someone who is constantly looking for ways to learn and improve. Look at examples like the Crusaders working with one of the NH teams to do a mock analysis of how they would approach playing each other to get insights they would otherwise miss, or him bringing O'Gara into the mix.
So your argument now is that giving away our precious IP is OK as long as it's done by Robertson and he hasn't left the country?
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@kiwi_expat A friend of mine is an ex-Chiefs player and says he was f-ing useless. Basically the same stuff Devine is saying.
@asterik6 said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat A friend of mine is an ex-Chiefs player and says he was f-ing useless. Basically the same stuff Devine is saying.
His coaching style hasn't changed from the 2004 Chiefs gameplan. Headless Chook Rugby 101.
Scant evidence to suggest Foster has improved or updated his coaching methods in 16/17 years..
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
Henry, Hansen, Smith, Eddie Jones all went through that. Schmidt too now. Failing is part of learning.
I'd love to see Scott Robertson as AB coach downstream but see prior international experience as hugely useful.
Ian Foster never coached overseas and he has walked into the All Black head coaching job. Why on earth would the far more successful Robertson need to coach overseas when Foster didn't? The sooner we discard this incredibly simplistic, black and white thinking the better... It's more about innovation and application.
If makes absolutely no sense to punish our elite players if they go overseas, by ruling them ineligible for the AB's, whilst simultaneously demanding that our elite coaches head overseas. Why give away our most precious intellectual capital for free? Once a coach leaves our shores they may never return. The argument that a quality coach needs a few mediocre years in charge of another test nation is stupid and dated, and was really only ever a 'thing' to ensure Graham Henry and Steve Hansen's tenures went unchallenged.
I don't believe that one needs to head offshore to learn more necessarily. Robertson strikes me as innovative and open to new approaches - someone who is constantly looking for ways to learn and improve. Look at examples like the Crusaders working with one of the NH teams to do a mock analysis of how they would approach playing each other to get insights they would otherwise miss, or him bringing O'Gara into the mix.
Getting out of the comfort zone can be equally achieved by how you approach things and valuing diversity in a coaching group as much as heading off-shore. A black and white approach is much too arbitrary I think...
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Ian Foster never coached overseas and he has walked into the All Black head coaching job.
Bloody good point mate.
Shit, just another good reason for me to hate Foster. -
@asterik6 said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat A friend of mine is an ex-Chiefs player and says he was f-ing useless. Basically the same stuff Devine is saying.
His coaching style hasn't changed from the 2004 Chiefs gameplan. Headless Chook Rugby 101.
Scant evidence to suggest Foster has improved or updated his coaching methods in 16/17 years..
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
His coaching style hasn't changed from the 2004 Chiefs gameplan. Headless Chook Rugby 101.
One of the big criticisms of the AB's is their gameplan hasn't changed much since around 2014 and Foster has simply followed Hansen's gameplan since taking over - which is a very fair criticism and one I agree with.
But as you state that Foster's gameplan hasn't changed since 2004 and he's continued with it as AB Coach, aren't you effectively arguing that Foster's game plan was years ahead of it's time, was copied by Henry and Hansen & won us RWC2011 & RWC2015....?
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Sometimes I wonder whether Dan54 and Victor Meldrew are some of Ian's relations, as I haven't come across such unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists of Fozzie on this forum, nor anywhere else (obviously, with the exception of old mate Shag Hansen..) In many ways, I can't help but admire their persistence and ability to not allow external viewpoints to influence their positions.
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Sometimes I wonder whether Dan54 and Victor Meldrew are some of Ian's relations, as I haven't come across such unwaveringly dedicated and loyal apologists of Fozzie on this forum, nor anywhere else (obviously, with the exception of old mate Shag Hansen..) In many ways, I can't help but admire their persistence and ability to not allow external viewpoints to influence their positions.
Wayne Smith quite rated Foster. Thought he'd really developed from his Chiefs days, too.
Foster is part of the problem, but he isn't the only problem. Our key issues are
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Super is no longer a superior comp to NH comps. This is major - the dilution, shagging around with system, and drop in quality means that when NH picked up their game they went past us. I'd argue that Super quality directly correlates to international success (with a bit of a lag).
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Governance/leadership
never thought I'd miss Steve Tew, but damn I miss Tew. The insanity of directly approaching Aussie Super, the appointment process for Foster that excluded credible candidates (due to timing and the perception of a closed shop), the early reappointment of Foster - it all points to poor governance. -
Foster
I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Hansen and Smith rated him and had him in the inner circle. However, the fear was that we'd see from the ABs what we saw from the Chiefs - poor/muddled selections, opaque game plans, regression in cohesion and skillsets, and a lack of forward dominance. It's played out that way - hence why so many folk are willing to put the boot in.
In fairness @kiwi_expat, Scott Robertson is not necessarily the answer either. He's had really good success, but in a limited environment. Coaching International is very differnet to coaching Super. I think he'd do a good job - but like players, it's not a lock that success transfers up a level.
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