All Blacks 2022
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Biggest talking point for me (outside Schmidt) was Jordie to 12 primarily to again, fit all our best players into the team. Now I'm on the fence on this - history tells me this hasn't worked well at RWC's, see 1999 with Cullen and 2007 with Mils. BUT..Jordie does have the skills to bend the line, massive boot and it allows the form fullback of the competition Will Jordan to play his best position.
If I were a selector or Fozzie and had to make a decision I'd punt on Jordie at 12 for the Ireland series with RTS in the squad. It's tough on Havili and Tupaea but Jordie/RTS upside trumps their consistency.
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@No-Quarter hang on a minute - after him probably playing most of the super season at 12, you don't want him switching positions so you're shuffling him back to 15?
I'd say his game and mentality across the board has improved immensely since 2-3 years ago, he seems to bring a high (and consistent) level to whatever position these days. It's definitely not too early.
If he's the best 12 in the comp, as well as being a seasoned international I don't see the issue.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter hang on a minute - after him probably playing most of the super season at 12, you don't want him switching positions so you're shuffling him back to 15?
I'd say his game and mentality across the board has improved immensely since 2-3 years ago, he seems to bring a high (and consistent) level to whatever position these days. It's definitely not too early.
If he's the best 12 in the comp, as well as being a seasoned international I don't see the issue.
I'd be keeping him in the only position he's excelled at test level.
Maybe it's a mental thing and he's matured to the point he could slot into a new position easily, but maybe not. It's a bit of a gamble and we risk putting him back by shunting him around to fill gaps where we think we have a problem instead of allowing him to build a career in one position.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter hang on a minute - after him probably playing most of the super season at 12, you don't want him switching positions so you're shuffling him back to 15?
I'd say his game and mentality across the board has improved immensely since 2-3 years ago, he seems to bring a high (and consistent) level to whatever position these days. It's definitely not too early.
If he's the best 12 in the comp, as well as being a seasoned international I don't see the issue.
I'd be keeping him in the only position he's excelled at test level.
Maybe it's a mental thing and he's matured to the point he could slot into a new position easily, but maybe not. It's a bit of a gamble and we risk putting him back by shunting him around to fill gaps where we think we have a problem instead of allowing him to build a career in one position.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter hang on a minute - after him probably playing most of the super season at 12, you don't want him switching positions so you're shuffling him back to 15?
I'd say his game and mentality across the board has improved immensely since 2-3 years ago, he seems to bring a high (and consistent) level to whatever position these days. It's definitely not too early.
If he's the best 12 in the comp, as well as being a seasoned international I don't see the issue.
I'd be keeping him in the only position he's excelled at test level.
Maybe it's a mental thing and he's matured to the point he could slot into a new position easily, but maybe not. It's a bit of a gamble and we risk putting him back by shunting him around to fill gaps where we think we have a problem instead of allowing him to build a career in one position.
I’ve always thought Jordie was a natural midfielder since he played aged grade footy. The extra size would be a great asset but it’s the things that he’s good at which I think are better utilised closer in. Whether we had Will Jordan playing well or not, Jordie is still the best option for 12 IMO.
By the way, I can see why they wanted him on the wing but he did look out of place there.
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Yeah look, I'm on board with Jordie at 12, @Rancid-Schnitzel and I have been beating that drum for years, I just wish we'd let players focus on a primary position more instead of trying them in too many positions. We've fucked a few very talented players over the years with that approach, and given his success at 15 I'd like to see him focus on that. I don't have words for how stupid chucking him on the wing and then persisting with it was after he'd shown his class at 15.
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JB wants to play 2nd 5, so a little different to Cullen and Mils. I would definitely like to see him there in at least one of the tests against Ireland. We won't know if he is the answer otherwise.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
JB wants to play 2nd 5, so a little different to Cullen and Mils. I would definitely like to see him there in at least one of the tests against Ireland. We won't know if he is the answer otherwise.
I see it more inline with Tana and Rieko moving. Given that he is also playing there (somewhat) at Super level, and has history there during his development (U20s, NPC), I don't see it as a moving players to get them to fit. The question is whether he will make a good international 12.
I think he could solve our issue with needing a second playmaker and big body in the midfield. I'm not sure I would do it though.
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He has the distribution skills, the boot, and he is big and strong. The only thing I notice is he is less visible in the game in terms of doing significant things, due to lack of space? I have no doubt he has great potential to be a sort of second 10 type of 12 who is also able to take on the line
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Yeah look, I'm on board with Jordie at 12, @Rancid-Schnitzel and I have been beating that drum for years, I just wish we'd let players focus on a primary position more instead of trying them in too many positions. We've fucked a few very talented players over the years with that approach, and given his success at 15 I'd like to see him focus on that. I don't have words for how stupid chucking him on the wing and then persisting with it was after he'd shown his class at 15.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
Yeah look, I'm on board with Jordie at 12, @Rancid-Schnitzel and I have been beating that drum for years, I just wish we'd let players focus on a primary position more instead of trying them in too many positions. We've fucked a few very talented players over the years with that approach, and given his success at 15 I'd like to see him focus on that. I don't have words for how stupid chucking him on the wing and then persisting with it was after he'd shown his class at 15.
Mis-remembering? He'd shown promise but was still prone to brain farts and even while we still had options such as Bender, Cruden, DMac, BB and RM in the mix he was actually given good opportunities at 15 while trying to fit everyone in.
IMO his spell on the wing gave him some good experience in back three play which he then used to become the 15 jersey owner.
Remember that this kid, while very talented didn't have a huge load of experience to fall back on. He learned on the job while being fast tracked. -
He has the distribution skills, the boot, and he is big and strong. The only thing I notice is he is less visible in the game in terms of doing significant things, due to lack of space? I have no doubt he has great potential to be a sort of second 10 type of 12 who is also able to take on the line
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
He has the distribution skills, the boot, and he is big and strong. The only thing I notice is he is less visible in the game in terms of doing significant things, due to lack of space? I have no doubt he has great potential to be a sort of second 10 type of 12 who is also able to take on the line
My trouble with JB at 12 right at this moment is that what we desperately need there is someone with linking vision. While his style can be very effective I don't see him setting RI/Jordan/Clarke etc into space, more a line runner/bender and re-set behind the gain line type.
In short he plays 12 like a fullback. -
just sort of an in general comment
the last time i remember us looking at a team reshape before a world cup was in 2010, the season after the very shit 2009.
The selectors changed almost half the squad, 13 changes to a 30 man squad. Only one would i consider to be a given, and that was Carter coming back.
Of the 13 i think 8 went on to make the World Cup squad.
lots of 2007 RWC team members out. Guys like Dagg, Cruden, Kahui, Vito, Boric brought inSo a big set of changes at this exact point is not without precedent.
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just sort of an in general comment
the last time i remember us looking at a team reshape before a world cup was in 2010, the season after the very shit 2009.
The selectors changed almost half the squad, 13 changes to a 30 man squad. Only one would i consider to be a given, and that was Carter coming back.
Of the 13 i think 8 went on to make the World Cup squad.
lots of 2007 RWC team members out. Guys like Dagg, Cruden, Kahui, Vito, Boric brought inSo a big set of changes at this exact point is not without precedent.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
just sort of an in general comment
the last time i remember us looking at a team reshape before a world cup was in 2010, the season after the very shit 2009.
The selectors changed almost half the squad, 13 changes to a 30 man squad. Only one would i consider to be a given, and that was Carter coming back.
Of the 13 i think 8 went on to make the World Cup squad.
lots of 2007 RWC team members out. Guys like Dagg, Cruden, Kahui, Vito, Boric brought inSo a big set of changes at this exact point is not without precedent.
and I hope they have the balls to do it again...
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
He has the distribution skills, the boot, and he is big and strong. The only thing I notice is he is less visible in the game in terms of doing significant things, due to lack of space? I have no doubt he has great potential to be a sort of second 10 type of 12 who is also able to take on the line
My trouble with JB at 12 right at this moment is that what we desperately need there is someone with linking vision. While his style can be very effective I don't see him setting RI/Jordan/Clarke etc into space, more a line runner/bender and re-set behind the gain line type.
In short he plays 12 like a fullback.@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
He has the distribution skills, the boot, and he is big and strong. The only thing I notice is he is less visible in the game in terms of doing significant things, due to lack of space? I have no doubt he has great potential to be a sort of second 10 type of 12 who is also able to take on the line
My trouble with JB at 12 right at this moment is that what we desperately need there is someone with linking vision. While his style can be very effective I don't see him setting RI/Jordan/Clarke etc into space, more a line runner/bender and re-set behind the gain line type.
In short he plays 12 like a fullback.I saw him distribute for the Blacks in the lions series. Small sample size though. I think he plays that way for the Canes because that's the way they play. He's played in midfield at age group level so he has some background. I'd like to see how he goes in a test
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
He has the distribution skills, the boot, and he is big and strong. The only thing I notice is he is less visible in the game in terms of doing significant things, due to lack of space? I have no doubt he has great potential to be a sort of second 10 type of 12 who is also able to take on the line
My trouble with JB at 12 right at this moment is that what we desperately need there is someone with linking vision. While his style can be very effective I don't see him setting RI/Jordan/Clarke etc into space, more a line runner/bender and re-set behind the gain line type.
In short he plays 12 like a fullback.I saw him distribute for the Blacks in the lions series. Small sample size though. I think he plays that way for the Canes because that's the way they play. He's played in midfield at age group level so he has some background. I'd like to see how he goes in a test
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
played in midfield at age group level so he has some background
bingo!
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
He has the distribution skills, the boot, and he is big and strong. The only thing I notice is he is less visible in the game in terms of doing significant things, due to lack of space? I have no doubt he has great potential to be a sort of second 10 type of 12 who is also able to take on the line
My trouble with JB at 12 right at this moment is that what we desperately need there is someone with linking vision. While his style can be very effective I don't see him setting RI/Jordan/Clarke etc into space, more a line runner/bender and re-set behind the gain line type.
In short he plays 12 like a fullback.I saw him distribute for the Blacks in the lions series. Small sample size though. I think he plays that way for the Canes because that's the way they play. He's played in midfield at age group level so he has some background. I'd like to see how he goes in a test
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
He has the distribution skills, the boot, and he is big and strong. The only thing I notice is he is less visible in the game in terms of doing significant things, due to lack of space? I have no doubt he has great potential to be a sort of second 10 type of 12 who is also able to take on the line
My trouble with JB at 12 right at this moment is that what we desperately need there is someone with linking vision. While his style can be very effective I don't see him setting RI/Jordan/Clarke etc into space, more a line runner/bender and re-set behind the gain line type.
In short he plays 12 like a fullback.I saw him distribute for the Blacks in the lions series. Small sample size though. I think he plays that way for the Canes because that's the way they play. He's played in midfield at age group level so he has some background. I'd like to see how he goes in a test
I'm not saying he's a bad midfielder. I actually think he's quite good. But if you look at his style and how it may assist in getting our strikepower free I just don't see him as a link man like Goodhue has shown to be and QT is fast developing as. I just don't see the need to move the 15 that everyone was raving about as our best player just last year to a different spot.
If RI is at 13 we have 4 very good options in Goodhue, RTS, QT and Havili (in no order). At fullback we have 1 other very good option (2 if you move BB back there) -
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
He has the distribution skills, the boot, and he is big and strong. The only thing I notice is he is less visible in the game in terms of doing significant things, due to lack of space? I have no doubt he has great potential to be a sort of second 10 type of 12 who is also able to take on the line
My trouble with JB at 12 right at this moment is that what we desperately need there is someone with linking vision. While his style can be very effective I don't see him setting RI/Jordan/Clarke etc into space, more a line runner/bender and re-set behind the gain line type.
In short he plays 12 like a fullback.I saw him distribute for the Blacks in the lions series. Small sample size though. I think he plays that way for the Canes because that's the way they play. He's played in midfield at age group level so he has some background. I'd like to see how he goes in a test
I'm not saying he's a bad midfielder. I actually think he's quite good. But if you look at his style and how it may assist in getting our strikepower free I just don't see him as a link man like Goodhue has shown to be and QT is fast developing as. I just don't see the need to move the 15 that everyone was raving about as our best player just last year to a different spot.
If RI is at 13 we have 4 very good options in Goodhue, RTS, QT and Havili (in no order). At fullback we have 1 other very good option (2 if you move BB back there)@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
He has the distribution skills, the boot, and he is big and strong. The only thing I notice is he is less visible in the game in terms of doing significant things, due to lack of space? I have no doubt he has great potential to be a sort of second 10 type of 12 who is also able to take on the line
My trouble with JB at 12 right at this moment is that what we desperately need there is someone with linking vision. While his style can be very effective I don't see him setting RI/Jordan/Clarke etc into space, more a line runner/bender and re-set behind the gain line type.
In short he plays 12 like a fullback.I saw him distribute for the Blacks in the lions series. Small sample size though. I think he plays that way for the Canes because that's the way they play. He's played in midfield at age group level so he has some background. I'd like to see how he goes in a test
I'm not saying he's a bad midfielder. I actually think he's quite good. But if you look at his style and how it may assist in getting our strikepower free I just don't see him as a link man like Goodhue has shown to be and QT is fast developing as. I just don't see the need to move the 15 that everyone was raving about as our best player just last year to a different spot.
If RI is at 13 we have 4 very good options in Goodhue, RTS, QT and Havili (in no order). At fullback we have 1 other very good option (2 if you move BB back there)He needs to play. But it is a risk to move a guy who's recently nailed down 15 to another position. Maybe a one off trial, it's getting close to the next RWC so time is running out. Having said that, in my mind no one has nailed down spots starting in midfield except perhaps ALB
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
He has the distribution skills, the boot, and he is big and strong. The only thing I notice is he is less visible in the game in terms of doing significant things, due to lack of space? I have no doubt he has great potential to be a sort of second 10 type of 12 who is also able to take on the line
My trouble with JB at 12 right at this moment is that what we desperately need there is someone with linking vision. While his style can be very effective I don't see him setting RI/Jordan/Clarke etc into space, more a line runner/bender and re-set behind the gain line type.
In short he plays 12 like a fullback.I saw him distribute for the Blacks in the lions series. Small sample size though. I think he plays that way for the Canes because that's the way they play. He's played in midfield at age group level so he has some background. I'd like to see how he goes in a test
I'm not saying he's a bad midfielder. I actually think he's quite good. But if you look at his style and how it may assist in getting our strikepower free I just don't see him as a link man like Goodhue has shown to be and QT is fast developing as. I just don't see the need to move the 15 that everyone was raving about as our best player just last year to a different spot.
If RI is at 13 we have 4 very good options in Goodhue, RTS, QT and Havili (in no order). At fullback we have 1 other very good option (2 if you move BB back there)@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
.If RI is at 13 we have 4 very good options in Goodhue, RTS, QT and Havili (in no order). At fullback we have 1 other very good option (2 if you move BB back there)
3 good options. It's Havili's natural position. He hasn't played there since 2020 NPC (after his bowel surgery), but before his surgery he was better than Jordie (at SR level) and he's played there for years.
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This is a great day for New Zealand
