All Blacks 2022
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
I think that Reece makes a better impact player than Clarke. He is busier and just what is needed to spot opportunities against tiring opposition
If we have JB at 2nd 5 and Jordan at fullback you can have Reece and Clarke on the wings.
I'm not super enthused by that back three. Jordie brings a level of safety under the high ball and defence that I don't think you quite get with Jordan. Jordie, Jordan + [Clarke/Reece/Faainganuku etc] looks a lot more assured as a trio.
I've been super impressed with RTS, he's clearly a leader and someone who thrives with responsibility, which is a really important attribute for me at test level. So he's ahead of Tupaea IMO. Tough on Quinn but he'll be in the mix.
I don't have a problem with throwing RTS into it straight away. He's going to be surrounded by experience, familiar faces and it's not like he is lacking big match temperament. I'm unsure about his boot but luckily we have a fullback who can occasionally and seamlessly slot into 12.
@Frye said in All Blacks 2022:
I don't have a problem with throwing RTS into it straight away. He's going to be surrounded by experience, familiar faces and it's not like he is lacking big match temperament.
It's a huge risk against an Irish team which has Henshaw and Aki in midfield.
They are both surrounded by, and have way more experience at Test level and have actually proven their big match temperament in numerous Tests in RU. No matter how much temperament, familiarity and experience he has around him, Ireland will target RTS's inexperience and that will increase pressure on the players around him.
And - serious question - what do you think Foster should do if that risk doesn't come off and his lack of experience is brutally exposed? Do we toss him aside like Henry Paul or carry on with him being a known weak link until he gains enough experience?
He's a talent which needs to be nurtured carefully and not just thrown in at the deep end.
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@Frye said in All Blacks 2022:
I don't have a problem with throwing RTS into it straight away. He's going to be surrounded by experience, familiar faces and it's not like he is lacking big match temperament.
It's a huge risk against an Irish team which has Henshaw and Aki in midfield.
They are both surrounded by, and have way more experience at Test level and have actually proven their big match temperament in numerous Tests in RU. No matter how much temperament, familiarity and experience he has around him, Ireland will target RTS's inexperience and that will increase pressure on the players around him.
And - serious question - what do you think Foster should do if that risk doesn't come off and his lack of experience is brutally exposed? Do we toss him aside like Henry Paul or carry on with him being a known weak link until he gains enough experience?
He's a talent which needs to be nurtured carefully and not just thrown in at the deep end.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@Frye said in All Blacks 2022:
I don't have a problem with throwing RTS into it straight away. He's going to be surrounded by experience, familiar faces and it's not like he is lacking big match temperament.
It's a huge risk against an Irish team which has Henshaw and Aki in midfield.
They are both surrounded by, and have way more experience at Test level and have actually proven their big match temperament in numerous Tests in RU. No matter how much temperament, familiarity and experience he has around him, Ireland will target RTS's inexperience and that will increase pressure on the players around him.
And - serious question - what do you think Foster should do if that risk doesn't come off and his lack of experience is brutally exposed? Do we toss him aside like Henry Paul or carry on with him being a known weak link until he gains enough experience?
He's a talent which needs to be nurtured carefully and not just thrown in at the deep end.
I think the Irish midfield will be ringrose then one of aki or henshaw. Personally I rate henshaw higher but aki seems to be ahead in the pecking order.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
I think that Reece makes a better impact player than Clarke. He is busier and just what is needed to spot opportunities against tiring opposition
If we have JB at 2nd 5 and Jordan at fullback you can have Reece and Clarke on the wings.
And your back three reserve is......?
Are we going back to BB at fullback 60 minutes in?All moot anyway if rumours that Clarke is out for a while.
FFS we may end up with Bridge again.
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
I think that Reece makes a better impact player than Clarke. He is busier and just what is needed to spot opportunities against tiring opposition
If we have JB at 2nd 5 and Jordan at fullback you can have Reece and Clarke on the wings.
And your back three reserve is......?
In that situation no.23 would be a midfield back, not a winger. It could be someone like TUJ, Tupaea or RTS. All could provide some real impact against tired opposition.
Are we going back to BB at fullback 60 minutes in?
If Mo'unga comes on, then that would be the only option if BB is to remain on the field.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
It's quite amusing to see the Jordie at 12 idea shelved for the experience of Tupaea.
I still quite like it -- but you have to have a standout Test 15 to do that. I'm still not sold on Jordan at 15 in Tests, and more importantly I don't think Foster wants him there.
Gotta say, though, that combo would be the tastiest in world rugby. A big framed kicker holding defenders, with one of the fastest dudes in Rugby running in space outside him. Sensational.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level. By far our most experienced option is Goodhue, but he's had a long injury break and hasn't gone that well at 12 in the past, so when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level. By far our most experienced option is Goodhue, but he's had a long injury break and hasn't gone that well at 12 in the past, so when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Pretty much agree so the coaches can have a good look at him - even if he doesn't get into the 23. A player def. worth investing time and effort in
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level.
Not unlike RTS then?
when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
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The thing with QT and other marginals putting their hands up in recent weeks is remembering the opposition. A few of these players are shining against the teams who are not exactly in danger of winning the competition.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Pretty much agree so the coaches can have a good look at him - even if he doesn't get into the 23. A player def. worth investing time and effort in
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level.
Not unlike RTS then?
when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Pretty much agree so the coaches can have a good look at him - even if he doesn't get into the 23. A player def. worth investing time and effort in
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level.
Not unlike RTS then?
when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
Come on man, QT has 7 tests, most of which were against tier 2 teams, has he even started a test against a tier 1 team? I remember he was on the bench against SA? Hell he only has 28 games for the Chiefs. He's also only 23, do you really think throwing him in against a "world class" Irish midfield is a good idea at this stage of his career?
Point being we don't actually have a good option at 12 with ALB out now. I'd be leaning towards Goodhue starting with RTS on the bench at the moment, though I'd be more than happy with RTS starting too.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Pretty much agree so the coaches can have a good look at him - even if he doesn't get into the 23. A player def. worth investing time and effort in
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level.
Not unlike RTS then?
when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
RTS also has performed at the top level in the 13 man game. Defence was a huge part of that sport - so experience at the top level and performing under pressure is a track record.
Ultimately, it's a risk. And that's what the Coaches need to do - understand the capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses, and then make a decision. Which I'll then disagree with if it appears wrong, or enthusiastically support if it aligns with my world view
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With ALB unavailable I would have thought it ideal time to play Jordie at 12 as he likely has highest ceiling there of the contenders. RTS is still more conjecture on what he might do so soon at 12. I don't get the push to force him in there when he seemed a safer bet as a wing or fullback. But he is in mix for squad just like Goodhue and Tupaea.
Happy to be proven wrong in the finals series if RTS dominates the midfield. -
If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
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Jordie is a fullback who can cover 12 if needed. I think it’ll take a huge injury toll before he’s even close to starting there in a black jersey.
No need to shift him, as mentioned there are plenty of good options available, who actually play there every week.
So can we give up on this myth that he’s the great redeemer in the midfield?
Also, does anyone remember what happens when the All Blacks shoehorn fullbacks into the midfield?
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Jordie is a fullback who can cover 12 if needed. I think it’ll take a huge injury toll before he’s even close to starting there in a black jersey.
No need to shift him, as mentioned there are plenty of good options available, who actually play there every week.
So can we give up on this myth that he’s the great redeemer in the midfield?
Also, does anyone remember what happens when the All Blacks shoehorn fullbacks into the midfield?
@Gunner said in All Blacks 2022:
Also, does anyone remember what happens when the All Blacks shoehorn fullbacks into midfielders?
@Chris-B (I think) is a guru in these parts and covered this a few weeks ago putting everybody at rest. The others went to 13, not 12, so the curse is nothing to worry about. Or something like that.
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If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
Sounds like a good idea. Let's replace one of the most exciting players NZ has produced in a while with a guy who shat the bed at 12 when the pressure came on.
Gotta keep Havili in the ABs somehow eh. -
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
Sounds like a good idea. Let's replace one of the most exciting players NZ has produced in a while with a guy who shat the bed at 12 when the pressure came on.
Gotta keep Havili in the ABs somehow eh.@Frank said in All Blacks 2022:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
Sounds like a good idea. Let's replace one of the most exciting players NZ has produced in a while with a guy who shat the bed at 12 when the pressure came on.
Gotta keep Havili in the ABs somehow eh.Good example of moving players around to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
Havili is OK at 12 in Super but isn't strong enough at test level there. Just because it suits the Saders doesn't mean it suits the ABsI have no doubt that Jordie would go OK at 12 in tests BUT we know that he is proven to be good at 15 and the only other established option at 15 (a 'spine' position) is his brother who should be at 10.
Why weaken a very important spot on the field to fill another spot that now has some good options knocking on the door. QT has improved heaps since last year, we have RTS demanding a shot (and the advantage of a combo with the players either side of him, and we have the fall back of another player better than Havili in Goodhue.
The Barretts don't get to call the shots, the good of the team does. As it is we have had Beauden virtually demand to play 10 which suited us at the time but I still don't see him as a game controller.
