All Blacks 2022
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
It's quite amusing to see the Jordie at 12 idea shelved for the experience of Tupaea.
I still quite like it -- but you have to have a standout Test 15 to do that. I'm still not sold on Jordan at 15 in Tests, and more importantly I don't think Foster wants him there.
Gotta say, though, that combo would be the tastiest in world rugby. A big framed kicker holding defenders, with one of the fastest dudes in Rugby running in space outside him. Sensational.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level. By far our most experienced option is Goodhue, but he's had a long injury break and hasn't gone that well at 12 in the past, so when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level. By far our most experienced option is Goodhue, but he's had a long injury break and hasn't gone that well at 12 in the past, so when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Pretty much agree so the coaches can have a good look at him - even if he doesn't get into the 23. A player def. worth investing time and effort in
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level.
Not unlike RTS then?
when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
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The thing with QT and other marginals putting their hands up in recent weeks is remembering the opposition. A few of these players are shining against the teams who are not exactly in danger of winning the competition.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Pretty much agree so the coaches can have a good look at him - even if he doesn't get into the 23. A player def. worth investing time and effort in
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level.
Not unlike RTS then?
when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Pretty much agree so the coaches can have a good look at him - even if he doesn't get into the 23. A player def. worth investing time and effort in
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level.
Not unlike RTS then?
when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
Come on man, QT has 7 tests, most of which were against tier 2 teams, has he even started a test against a tier 1 team? I remember he was on the bench against SA? Hell he only has 28 games for the Chiefs. He's also only 23, do you really think throwing him in against a "world class" Irish midfield is a good idea at this stage of his career?
Point being we don't actually have a good option at 12 with ALB out now. I'd be leaning towards Goodhue starting with RTS on the bench at the moment, though I'd be more than happy with RTS starting too.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Pretty much agree so the coaches can have a good look at him - even if he doesn't get into the 23. A player def. worth investing time and effort in
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level.
Not unlike RTS then?
when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
RTS also has performed at the top level in the 13 man game. Defence was a huge part of that sport - so experience at the top level and performing under pressure is a track record.
Ultimately, it's a risk. And that's what the Coaches need to do - understand the capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses, and then make a decision. Which I'll then disagree with if it appears wrong, or enthusiastically support if it aligns with my world view
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With ALB unavailable I would have thought it ideal time to play Jordie at 12 as he likely has highest ceiling there of the contenders. RTS is still more conjecture on what he might do so soon at 12. I don't get the push to force him in there when he seemed a safer bet as a wing or fullback. But he is in mix for squad just like Goodhue and Tupaea.
Happy to be proven wrong in the finals series if RTS dominates the midfield. -
If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
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Jordie is a fullback who can cover 12 if needed. I think it’ll take a huge injury toll before he’s even close to starting there in a black jersey.
No need to shift him, as mentioned there are plenty of good options available, who actually play there every week.
So can we give up on this myth that he’s the great redeemer in the midfield?
Also, does anyone remember what happens when the All Blacks shoehorn fullbacks into the midfield?
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Jordie is a fullback who can cover 12 if needed. I think it’ll take a huge injury toll before he’s even close to starting there in a black jersey.
No need to shift him, as mentioned there are plenty of good options available, who actually play there every week.
So can we give up on this myth that he’s the great redeemer in the midfield?
Also, does anyone remember what happens when the All Blacks shoehorn fullbacks into the midfield?
@Gunner said in All Blacks 2022:
Also, does anyone remember what happens when the All Blacks shoehorn fullbacks into midfielders?
@Chris-B (I think) is a guru in these parts and covered this a few weeks ago putting everybody at rest. The others went to 13, not 12, so the curse is nothing to worry about. Or something like that.
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If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
Sounds like a good idea. Let's replace one of the most exciting players NZ has produced in a while with a guy who shat the bed at 12 when the pressure came on.
Gotta keep Havili in the ABs somehow eh. -
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
Sounds like a good idea. Let's replace one of the most exciting players NZ has produced in a while with a guy who shat the bed at 12 when the pressure came on.
Gotta keep Havili in the ABs somehow eh.@Frank said in All Blacks 2022:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
Sounds like a good idea. Let's replace one of the most exciting players NZ has produced in a while with a guy who shat the bed at 12 when the pressure came on.
Gotta keep Havili in the ABs somehow eh.Good example of moving players around to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
Havili is OK at 12 in Super but isn't strong enough at test level there. Just because it suits the Saders doesn't mean it suits the ABsI have no doubt that Jordie would go OK at 12 in tests BUT we know that he is proven to be good at 15 and the only other established option at 15 (a 'spine' position) is his brother who should be at 10.
Why weaken a very important spot on the field to fill another spot that now has some good options knocking on the door. QT has improved heaps since last year, we have RTS demanding a shot (and the advantage of a combo with the players either side of him, and we have the fall back of another player better than Havili in Goodhue.
The Barretts don't get to call the shots, the good of the team does. As it is we have had Beauden virtually demand to play 10 which suited us at the time but I still don't see him as a game controller. -
If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
You're living in the past, man. Two years ago you probably had a case, but not now.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
You're living in the past, man. Two years ago you probably had a case, but not now.
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Maybe the best way to describe my thoughts is net result.
Is the net result of moving Jordie more than him staying there (for the Ireland games)?
To me starting Jordie at 15 and moving him later in the game is the best option by far. You get to observe whether the re-ordered lineup works better but also get to have confidence at the start.
The starting 12 must be QT or RTS (maybe give both a chance) though. Thanks for the service DH.
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So everyone who doesn't want DH in the ABs because - despite being excellent until the tests against South Africa, but struggling in the later games against stronger teams - I assume you all also want to drop Akira too, who did exactly the same thing? At least DH has the excuse of being new in the position; can't say the same of Akira.
Edited to add that I see DH mostly as a 23. Not too sure about the starting 12: maybe JG with RI at 13. QT is still quite raw and it's way too soon for RTS.
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Yeah, way too soon for RTS. Take away the name and just look at the performances. Solid with some exciting skills but hardly knocking the door down. QT is going great guns, and Goodhue showed his class last week. DH is a perfect squad member because of his versatility.
