All Blacks 2022
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Maybe the best way to describe my thoughts is net result.
Is the net result of moving Jordie more than him staying there (for the Ireland games)?
To me starting Jordie at 15 and moving him later in the game is the best option by far. You get to observe whether the re-ordered lineup works better but also get to have confidence at the start.
The starting 12 must be QT or RTS (maybe give both a chance) though. Thanks for the service DH.
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So everyone who doesn't want DH in the ABs because - despite being excellent until the tests against South Africa, but struggling in the later games against stronger teams - I assume you all also want to drop Akira too, who did exactly the same thing? At least DH has the excuse of being new in the position; can't say the same of Akira.
Edited to add that I see DH mostly as a 23. Not too sure about the starting 12: maybe JG with RI at 13. QT is still quite raw and it's way too soon for RTS.
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Yeah, way too soon for RTS. Take away the name and just look at the performances. Solid with some exciting skills but hardly knocking the door down. QT is going great guns, and Goodhue showed his class last week. DH is a perfect squad member because of his versatility.
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So everyone who doesn't want DH in the ABs because - despite being excellent until the tests against South Africa, but struggling in the later games against stronger teams - I assume you all also want to drop Akira too, who did exactly the same thing? At least DH has the excuse of being new in the position; can't say the same of Akira.
Edited to add that I see DH mostly as a 23. Not too sure about the starting 12: maybe JG with RI at 13. QT is still quite raw and it's way too soon for RTS.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
So everyone who doesn't want DH in the ABs because - despite being excellent until the tests against South Africa, but struggling in the later games against stronger teams - I assume you all also want to drop Akira too, who did exactly the same thing? At least DH has the excuse of being new in the position; can't say the same of Akira.
Edited to add that I see DH mostly as a 23. Not too sure about the starting 12: maybe JG with RI at 13. QT is still quite raw and it's way too soon for RTS.
I see DH as a squad member for sure. Definitely against Ireland where we don't have much lead in time and pattern knowledge etc will be of value.
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Maybe the best way to describe my thoughts is net result.
Is the net result of moving Jordie more than him staying there (for the Ireland games)?
To me starting Jordie at 15 and moving him later in the game is the best option by far. You get to observe whether the re-ordered lineup works better but also get to have confidence at the start.
The starting 12 must be QT or RTS (maybe give both a chance) though. Thanks for the service DH.
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
Maybe the best way to describe my thoughts is net result.
Is the net result of moving Jordie more than him staying there (for the Ireland games)?
To me starting Jordie at 15 and moving him later in the game is the best option by far. You get to observe whether the re-ordered lineup works better but also get to have confidence at the start.
The starting 12 must be QT or RTS (maybe give both a chance) though. Thanks for the service DH.
I think Jack Goodhue has the inside running. He was the incumbent 12 before getting injured - though, I don't know whether Fozzie is still running Hansen's theory that you don't lose your place due to injury. However, given that none of the other options are hugely compelling right now, I'd be pretty surprised if Jack doesn't get the first go.
I think we will see exactly what you suggest with Jordie getting shifted to 12 - at some point during the season - especially if no-one else really nails 12. At various times, Fozzie also needs to give Jordan time at fullback if he's to be the back-up at RWC.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
Maybe the best way to describe my thoughts is net result.
Is the net result of moving Jordie more than him staying there (for the Ireland games)?
To me starting Jordie at 15 and moving him later in the game is the best option by far. You get to observe whether the re-ordered lineup works better but also get to have confidence at the start.
The starting 12 must be QT or RTS (maybe give both a chance) though. Thanks for the service DH.
I think Jack Goodhue has the inside running. He was the incumbent 12 before getting injured - though, I don't know whether Fozzie is still running Hansen's theory that you don't lose your place due to injury. However, given that none of the other options are hugely compelling right now, I'd be pretty surprised if Jack doesn't get the first go.
I think we will see exactly what you suggest with Jordie getting shifted to 12 - at some point during the season - especially if no-one else really nails 12. At various times, Fozzie also needs to give Jordan time at fullback if he's to be the back-up at RWC.
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I think a 3/4 line of
13 Reiko , 14 Jordan , 15 Jordie , 11 Clarke / Reece
Has already got an abundance of pace and flair ,
I’m personally not sure you have to sacrifice a bit of safety under the high ball and kick returns , to add more pace and X factor .
Just think the balance looks pretty right to me but maybe I’m a bit conservative
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@Chris-B You might be right about Goodhue, but it would be better if he was playing at 2nd 5 for the Crusaders. There are subtle but significant differences between playing 12 and 13.
@Bovidae He's had a couple of games at 12 - Razor's switching him back and forth depending on Ennor or Havili.
I wish ALB hadn't got injured, so that Fozzie had to settle on who are his 2nd fives and who are his centres. I can easily foresee Jack playing in both positions for the ABs this year.
We'll quite likely go into the first test vs Ireland with all of Goodhue, Reece, Jordan and Jordie having played their previous game in a different position!
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This is a really great discussion about the makeup of the backline, all of which is completely redundant if Ireland smack our forwards around again, but interesting nonetheless.
I agree with @Chris-B in that Jack likely has the inside running given his experience and being the incumbent before injury, which I'm OK with - I think he and Rieko could really work well.
I'll admit to being a bit over excited about RTS, I just really like what I'm seeing from him. We know he has both the natural talent and the big game temperament already, and I like that he isn't trying to do too much or overplay his hand while learning the position. He looks like he's just focusing on doing the basics well and the more comfortable he gets, the more we are going to see his natural attacking ability come to the fore. I think by the time the RWC comes around he'll have a pretty firm grip on that 12 jersey, and paired with Rieko that's gotta be one of the most exciting midfield combinations of all time.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
Now, about those forwards....?
We're coming into the championship rounds now, but I really, really liked what I saw from Sotutu last weekend. Big work rate, massively effective.
If Ofa gets injured I think we're in trouble. Does Foster trust Samisoni to start?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
Now, about those forwards....?
We're coming into the championship rounds now, but I really, really liked what I saw from Sotutu last weekend. Big work rate, massively effective.
If Ofa gets injured I think we're in trouble. Does Foster trust Samisoni to start?
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
Now, about those forwards....?
We're coming into the championship rounds now, but I really, really liked what I saw from Sotutu last weekend. Big work rate, massively effective.
If Ofa gets injured I think we're in trouble. Does Foster trust Samisoni to start?
Bloody better.
Ofa and Samisoni are two thirds of the starting front row. Loosehead is where they have big decisions to make.
They wont totally refresh things so I expect Sam W to be one lock. Vaa'i should be the other but it wouldn't surprise me if they go for Barrett.
Loosies will be the biggest point of fan argument. 7 must be Cane or Paps. 8 will be Savea (despite Sotutu playing well). Then it's just the old 6 'problem. I'm hoping that Akira can show good form in finals footy and demand that spot -
Why the fuck have we all of a sudden started calling Smith Azza? Did I miss NZ becoming part of Oz?
I’m not sure if Christie has the inside running as straight up number 2, AB coaches are generally pretty loyal so wouldn’t be surprised if Weber and TJ are still ranked higher.
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@Nepia Oz doesn’t have a monopoly on bogan nicknames. Azza was one of Cruden’s nicknames…
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2022:
@Nepia Oz doesn’t have a monopoly on bogan nicknames. Azza was one of Cruden’s nicknames…
Aaargh, it's spreading, hopefully we can contain it within our bogan population and not let it spread to all areas like here in Oz.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2022:
@Nepia Oz doesn’t have a monopoly on bogan nicknames. Azza was one of Cruden’s nicknames…
Aaargh, it's spreading, hopefully we can contain it within our bogan population and not let it spread to all areas like here in Oz.
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2022:
@Nepia Oz doesn’t have a monopoly on bogan nicknames. Azza was one of Cruden’s nicknames…
Aaargh, it's spreading, hopefully we can contain it within our bogan population and not let it spread to all areas like here in Oz.
Obviously you have never watched idiocracy...
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
Now, about those forwards....?
We're coming into the championship rounds now, but I really, really liked what I saw from Sotutu last weekend. Big work rate, massively effective.
If Ofa gets injured I think we're in trouble. Does Foster trust Samisoni to start?
Bloody better.
Ofa and Samisoni are two thirds of the starting front row. Loosehead is where they have big decisions to make.
They wont totally refresh things so I expect Sam W to be one lock. Vaa'i should be the other but it wouldn't surprise me if they go for Barrett.
Loosies will be the biggest point of fan argument. 7 must be Cane or Paps. 8 will be Savea (despite Sotutu playing well). Then it's just the old 6 'problem. I'm hoping that Akira can show good form in finals footy and demand that spot@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
Now, about those forwards....?
We're coming into the championship rounds now, but I really, really liked what I saw from Sotutu last weekend. Big work rate, massively effective.
If Ofa gets injured I think we're in trouble. Does Foster trust Samisoni to start?
Bloody better.
Ofa and Samisoni are two thirds of the starting front row. Loosehead is where they have big decisions to make.
They wont totally refresh things so I expect Sam W to be one lock. Vaa'i should be the other but it wouldn't surprise me if they go for Barrett.
Loosies will be the biggest point of fan argument. 7 must be Cane or Paps. 8 will be Savea (despite Sotutu playing well). Then it's just the old 6 'problem. I'm hoping that Akira can show good form in finals footy and demand that spotBower, Taylor, Ofa
Whitelock, Barrett
Papali'i/Cane, Savea, AkiraRes: Hodgman, Tauki'aho, Lomax, Va'ai, Papali'i/Cane
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
Now, about those forwards....?
We're coming into the championship rounds now, but I really, really liked what I saw from Sotutu last weekend. Big work rate, massively effective.
If Ofa gets injured I think we're in trouble. Does Foster trust Samisoni to start?
Bloody better.
Ofa and Samisoni are two thirds of the starting front row. Loosehead is where they have big decisions to make.
They wont totally refresh things so I expect Sam W to be one lock. Vaa'i should be the other but it wouldn't surprise me if they go for Barrett.
Loosies will be the biggest point of fan argument. 7 must be Cane or Paps. 8 will be Savea (despite Sotutu playing well). Then it's just the old 6 'problem. I'm hoping that Akira can show good form in finals footy and demand that spotBower, Taylor, Ofa
Whitelock, Barrett
Papali'i/Cane, Savea, AkiraRes: Hodgman, Tauki'aho, Lomax, Va'ai, Papali'i/Cane
@TheMojoman I'm no expert on props but Bower?
If hes the best of the scrummaging looseheads out there then fair enough as we need a strong one against Ireland.
Also not sure about Lomax. He's crap. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Pretty much agree so the coaches can have a good look at him - even if he doesn't get into the 23. A player def. worth investing time and effort in
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level.
Not unlike RTS then?
when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
Come on man, QT has 7 tests, most of which were against tier 2 teams, has he even started a test against a tier 1 team? I remember he was on the bench against SA? Hell he only has 28 games for the Chiefs. He's also only 23, do you really think throwing him in against a "world class" Irish midfield is a good idea at this stage of his career?
Point being we don't actually have a good option at 12 with ALB out now. I'd be leaning towards Goodhue starting with RTS on the bench at the moment, though I'd be more than happy with RTS starting too.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2022:
and the coaches would be idiots not to bring players like RTS who is already a proven world class athlete into the squad.
Genuine question here: How many games of top class Union has he played?
Professionally? 10 or so.
Schoolboy career as a rugby player though, so has a solid grounding. 12 is easier to read/play than 13. Still risky, but the question is whether the other attributes (stepping, defence) outweigh the experience risk. Either way, yo uhave to make a decision fast and he's in getting minutes, or out
I remember SBW being absolutely taken to pieces by Jamie Roberts on an EOYT where he was subbed at half-time for Nonu - and that was after 33+ games for Toulon. And we don't have anyone like Ma'a to fall back on.
Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've seen of RTS, just think the risks of putting him in the match-day XV against a world-class Ireland mid-field are way, way too much. Ideally, I'd like to see him in the larger squad and if that goes OK, on the bench for one of the later Tests so he can ease his way in.
My comment was around leaving him out of the squad, which would be crazy, he absolutely has to be there.
Pretty much agree so the coaches can have a good look at him - even if he doesn't get into the 23. A player def. worth investing time and effort in
Fact is we don't have a proven 12 right now. Thinking Tupea is that man is insane, he's as green as a green thing at test level and has only just started showing what he can do at Super level.
Not unlike RTS then?
when you compare RTS to the other options there's not much difference in terms of risk.
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
Come on man, QT has 7 tests, most of which were against tier 2 teams, has he even started a test against a tier 1 team? I remember he was on the bench against SA? Hell he only has 28 games for the Chiefs. He's also only 23, do you really think throwing him in against a "world class" Irish midfield is a good idea at this stage of his career?
Isn't that exactly my point about RTS? And QT is still way, way more experienced - even if green
Point being we don't actually have a good option at 12 with ALB out now. I'd be leaning towards Goodhue starting with RTS on the bench at the moment, though I'd be more than happy with RTS starting too.
Yep. My guess is Goodhue at 12 with Havili on the bench. If Goodhue isn't fit, then Havili to start (shudder) with QT on the bench.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
RTS also has performed at the top level in the 13 man game. Defence was a huge part of that sport - so experience at the top level and performing under pressure is a track record.
Ultimately, it's a risk. And that's what the Coaches need to do - understand the capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses, and then make a decision. Which I'll then disagree with if it appears wrong, or enthusiastically support if it aligns with my world view
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2022:
RTS also has performed at the top level in the 13 man game.
Different game, though. Perhaps we could persuade Ireland to only play 13 players...
