All Blacks 2022
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@mariner4life Well, don't shoot the messenger.
As I said earlier, getting beaten by Ireland might be the making of us in 2023.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life Well, don't shoot the messenger.
As I said earlier, getting beaten by Ireland might be the making of us in 2023.
Why cos foster will finally quit? He didn't after losing to Argentina's, he won't even if he loses the bled this year. And NZR will believe in their own internally assessed hype
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@mariner4life It's dispiriting to see pundits suggest the same failed tight five again and again. Not to mention the inadequate loose forwards.
@Tim said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life It's dispiriting to see pundits suggest the same failed tight five again and again. Not to mention the inadequate loose forwards.
Failures in selection and development: Lomax appears to be a bust, they invested in Bower rather than any of the others with much higher ceilings, pissed around with Ofa in the LH (edited to add), invested in Aumua who appears to be a bust, took too long to move on from Pat T, and haven't been prepared to make Retallick earn his jersey for roughly three years. Place that alongside ignoring Akira for a couple of seasons, and the fact that they must select Savea and we look a bit like Wales in black jerseys hoping that AWJ will have one more good game in him and our variety of half 6/half 7 loosies will turn it on for one day.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life Well, don't shoot the messenger.
As I said earlier, getting beaten by Ireland might be the making of us in 2023.
Why cos foster will finally quit? He didn't after losing to Argentina's, he won't even if he loses the bled this year. And NZR will believe in their own internally assessed hype
@Machpants Foster won't quit - or be sacked - but he would be forced to move his old guard on.
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@Tim said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life It's dispiriting to see pundits suggest the same failed tight five again and again. Not to mention the inadequate loose forwards.
Failures in selection and development: Lomax appears to be a bust, they invested in Bower rather than any of the others with much higher ceilings, pissed around with Ofa in the LH (edited to add), invested in Aumua who appears to be a bust, took too long to move on from Pat T, and haven't been prepared to make Retallick earn his jersey for roughly three years. Place that alongside ignoring Akira for a couple of seasons, and the fact that they must select Savea and we look a bit like Wales in black jerseys hoping that AWJ will have one more good game in him and our variety of half 6/half 7 loosies will turn it on for one day.
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
bit like Wales in black jerseys hoping that AWJ will have one more good game in him and our variety of half 6/half 7 loosies will turn it on for one day.
that's really not bad at all
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dunno, I think our tight 5 is still capable of contesting the collisions better, for me it is how we are playing, which is just too passive.
If the players start doing what is needed, that tight 5 will be more than adequate, sure it aint gonna dominate as we would like, but with our backs, it will be sufficient to give them the space they need to tear shit up.
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dunno, I think our tight 5 is still capable of contesting the collisions better, for me it is how we are playing, which is just too passive.
If the players start doing what is needed, that tight 5 will be more than adequate, sure it aint gonna dominate as we would like, but with our backs, it will be sufficient to give them the space they need to tear shit up.
@taniwharugby more pick and goes like the second half vs France might be a good starting point.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
s I said earlier, getting beaten by Ireland might be the making of us in 2023.
it wasn't in 2021 if we aren't learning lessons.
@mariner4life Thing is - most people were pretty happy in late-September 2021.
Turned to shit after that, but was that simply because the other teams were too good for us, or because we were running out of gas?
I'm inclined to think a fair bit of the latter - though Ireland especially were extraordinarily good. We will find out more on this forthcoming tour as long as they send something close to their best team.
I don't think Fozzie's going to throw the baby out with the bathwater in the first test though. We'll see what changes might be enforced for the later tests.
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There is no doubt that the forwards need to be more direct, and a lot of that will come down to the players selected, irrespective of the tactics. Even though SR is a lot different to test rugby, the Blues have shown what happens if your tight five and loosies give you front-foot ball. To me, the props and locks are probably the key selections. If Foster and Plumtree get that wrong the backs will continue to struggle with slow ball and a rush defence.
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@Tim said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life It's dispiriting to see pundits suggest the same failed tight five again and again. Not to mention the inadequate loose forwards.
Failures in selection and development: Lomax appears to be a bust, they invested in Bower rather than any of the others with much higher ceilings, pissed around with Ofa in the LH (edited to add), invested in Aumua who appears to be a bust, took too long to move on from Pat T, and haven't been prepared to make Retallick earn his jersey for roughly three years. Place that alongside ignoring Akira for a couple of seasons, and the fact that they must select Savea and we look a bit like Wales in black jerseys hoping that AWJ will have one more good game in him and our variety of half 6/half 7 loosies will turn it on for one day.
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@Tim said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life It's dispiriting to see pundits suggest the same failed tight five again and again. Not to mention the inadequate loose forwards.
Failures in selection and development: Lomax appears to be a bust, they invested in Bower rather than any of the others with much higher ceilings, pissed around with Ofa in the LH (edited to add), invested in Aumua who appears to be a bust, took too long to move on from Pat T, and haven't been prepared to make Retallick earn his jersey for roughly three years. Place that alongside ignoring Akira for a couple of seasons, and the fact that they must select Savea and we look a bit like Wales in black jerseys hoping that AWJ will have one more good game in him and our variety of half 6/half 7 loosies will turn it on for one day.
depressingly accurate post
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2022:
9-Smith
10-B. Barrett
11-Reece/Clarke
12-Goodhue/J. Barrett
13-Ioane
14-Jordan/Reece
15-J. Barrett/Jordan21-Christie
22-Mo’unga
23-Clarke/GoodhueThat gives us plenty of options across the board.
I think Reece is the best winger in NZ right now. Playing well on both sides of the ball, has a high workrate, sniffs opportunities from not much and his support/chase game is Howlett-esque. For me he has to start.
I’m more and more in the “I really want to see Jordie at 2nd 5” camp. He looks assured there, runs hard and direct and gets him closer to the action. I do think Goodhue is what they’ve wanted, but I think his form will need to lift quite a bit to get an Ireland start.
i think this is probably about right...but a little worrying its all the same names we've seen over the last few years...but THIS TIME things will be different
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@mariner4life Thing is - most people were pretty happy in late-September 2021.
Turned to shit after that, but was that simply because the other teams were too good for us, or because we were running out of gas?
I'm inclined to think a fair bit of the latter - though Ireland especially were extraordinarily good. We will find out more on this forthcoming tour as long as they send something close to their best team.
I don't think Fozzie's going to throw the baby out with the bathwater in the first test though. We'll see what changes might be enforced for the later tests.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
Thing is - most people were pretty happy in late-September 2021
they were? People were scathing after the Fiji games. We beat semi-pros. Then Fiji. Then the worst Puma side in a while. And the Cooper and especially Kerevi-less Wallabies. The South African games were basically draws. We weren't playing well.
It went to shit results-wise after that, but the signs were there.
Look, I'm far from doom and gloom. Some stuff was good even when we lost. And we are loaded with talent in the backs. a bit straighter at 10, the right 12, some actual time together, and there are a lot of points there.
I have serious issues around the pack though. My thoughts on Savea, and what he doesn't bring are well documented. We definitely need more physically at 6, and a 7 to put heat on the ball. Tight 5 players who can carry with venom, and actually attack a ruck a necessity. And more accuracy at set piece. The players are there. If they insist on dad's fucking army up front, then fucking coach them. -
@mariner4life Thing is - most people were pretty happy in late-September 2021.
Turned to shit after that, but was that simply because the other teams were too good for us, or because we were running out of gas?
I'm inclined to think a fair bit of the latter - though Ireland especially were extraordinarily good. We will find out more on this forthcoming tour as long as they send something close to their best team.
I don't think Fozzie's going to throw the baby out with the bathwater in the first test though. We'll see what changes might be enforced for the later tests.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life Thing is - most people were pretty happy in late-September 2021.
Turned to shit after that, but was that simply because the other teams were too good for us, or because we were running out of gas?
I'm inclined to think a fair bit of the latter - though Ireland especially were extraordinarily good. We will find out more on this forthcoming tour as long as they send something close to their best team.
I don't think Fozzie's going to throw the baby out with the bathwater in the first test though. We'll see what changes might be enforced for the later tests.
i have very a different memory, i remember talking about even when we won we looked ropey, relying on moments of individual brilliance rather than a champion team playing together
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@mariner4life It's dispiriting to see pundits suggest the same failed tight five again and again. Not to mention the inadequate loose forwards.
@Tim said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life It's dispiriting to see pundits suggest the same failed tight five again and again. Not to mention the inadequate loose forwards.
The problem being is that it is likely the best available.
With the exception of Sammy T the alternatives are rather hit and hope.
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@Tim said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life It's dispiriting to see pundits suggest the same failed tight five again and again. Not to mention the inadequate loose forwards.
The problem being is that it is likely the best available.
With the exception of Sammy T the alternatives are rather hit and hope.
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@Tim said in All Blacks 2022:
@booboo I don't buy that for the front row at all.
Who are we looking at there though?
LH Grout and Hodgman
TH NewellPromising but not yet standouts
Others?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
Thing is - most people were pretty happy in late-September 2021
they were? People were scathing after the Fiji games. We beat semi-pros. Then Fiji. Then the worst Puma side in a while. And the Cooper and especially Kerevi-less Wallabies. The South African games were basically draws. We weren't playing well.
It went to shit results-wise after that, but the signs were there.
Look, I'm far from doom and gloom. Some stuff was good even when we lost. And we are loaded with talent in the backs. a bit straighter at 10, the right 12, some actual time together, and there are a lot of points there.
I have serious issues around the pack though. My thoughts on Savea, and what he doesn't bring are well documented. We definitely need more physically at 6, and a 7 to put heat on the ball. Tight 5 players who can carry with venom, and actually attack a ruck a necessity. And more accuracy at set piece. The players are there. If they insist on dad's fucking army up front, then fucking coach them.@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
Tight 5 players who can carry with venom
that is a huge part of the problem, when they arent carrying, or getting us to or past the gain line, the additional load is going to others, taking them away from thier roles as well.
Often in the past 2 years our props have been there to hold up the scrum and make a few tackles, thier carries have been such that we expect SW & BBBR/SB to do extra carries, as well as our loosies, and when your 8 isnt really a ball carrying line busting 8, you want the game so he can roam and be available in the looser parts.
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@Tim said in All Blacks 2022:
@booboo I don't buy that for the front row at all.
Who are we looking at there though?
LH Grout and Hodgman
TH NewellPromising but not yet standouts
Others?
@booboo said in All Blacks 2022:
@Tim said in All Blacks 2022:
@booboo I don't buy that for the front row at all.
Who are we looking at there though?
LH Grout and Hodgman
TH NewellPromising but not yet standouts
Others?
Vaai looks good - even when got thrown in the deep end Bledisloe 2 in 2020 at Eden Park he was good. The lad needs to play - can't develop being a squad lock who only ever gets thrown token minutes.
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@Tim said in All Blacks 2022:
@booboo I don't buy that for the front row at all.
Who are we looking at there though?
LH Grout and Hodgman
TH NewellPromising but not yet standouts
Others?
@booboo Tu'ungufasi should be a big step up on last year's props. Hodgman at loose head, Taukei'aho at hooker. That should give us a big improvement over the first 50 minutes of last year's games - we'd lost the matches at that point against Ireland and France.
Even having Barrett available might prove a difference over the geriatric duo used on the last EOYT.
I like to see Newell get game time this year, maybe Norris too.
Opinions on Ross as a loose head? An all-rounder, but not particularly good at anything?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
Thing is - most people were pretty happy in late-September 2021
they were? People were scathing after the Fiji games. We beat semi-pros. Then Fiji. Then the worst Puma side in a while. And the Cooper and especially Kerevi-less Wallabies. The South African games were basically draws. We weren't playing well.
It went to shit results-wise after that, but the signs were there.
Look, I'm far from doom and gloom. Some stuff was good even when we lost. And we are loaded with talent in the backs. a bit straighter at 10, the right 12, some actual time together, and there are a lot of points there.
I have serious issues around the pack though. My thoughts on Savea, and what he doesn't bring are well documented. We definitely need more physically at 6, and a 7 to put heat on the ball. Tight 5 players who can carry with venom, and actually attack a ruck a necessity. And more accuracy at set piece. The players are there. If they insist on dad's fucking army up front, then fucking coach them.@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2022:
Thing is - most people were pretty happy in late-September 2021
they were? People were scathing after the Fiji games. We beat semi-pros. Then Fiji. Then the worst Puma side in a while. And the Cooper and especially Kerevi-less Wallabies. The South African games were basically draws. We weren't playing well.
It went to shit results-wise after that, but the signs were there.
Look, I'm far from doom and gloom. Some stuff was good even when we lost. And we are loaded with talent in the backs. a bit straighter at 10, the right 12, some actual time together, and there are a lot of points there.
I have serious issues around the pack though. My thoughts on Savea, and what he doesn't bring are well documented. We definitely need more physically at 6, and a 7 to put heat on the ball. Tight 5 players who can carry with venom, and actually attack a ruck a necessity. And more accuracy at set piece. The players are there. If they insist on dad's fucking army up front, then fucking coach them.Around the time we beat the Argies, SA had lost to Oz and we were back to being No. 1 ranked team in the world.
There were even a few concessions that either Fozzie wasn't quite as bad as we thought, or that he'd been learning.
Without being too doom and gloom either, I think we have big issues in the forwards as well. I don't think we'll solve them by running out an uncohesive pack of fern favourites in the first test though.
TBH - if I was picking the team, the only change I'd look closely at for test 1 (compared to what I've ascribed to Fozzie) is Papali'i for Cane.
