All Blacks 2022
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@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
Mate, all hookers tend to struggle with lineout throwing.
Coles, Taylor, and Samisoni are good lineout throwers. (much better than him)
@Frank said in All Blacks 2022:
@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
Mate, all hookers tend to struggle with lineout throwing.
Coles, Taylor, and Samisoni are good lineout throwers. (much better than him)
I would say they are not that much better than him at throwing in... not just the throwing in, it's the timing of the lifters as well, with the Canes wasn't easy for any of our hookers throwing in this year as Holland keep changing too many players per game.
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@NZbloke yeah...so he's the one exception...so everyone else in the world must fall into your definition of heavier is always slower....so i must be faster than Usain Bolt...unless you mean there might be other exceptions.....i wonder if there any chance that DP is one of them
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
@NZbloke yeah...so he's the one exception...so everyone else in the world must fall into your definition of heavier is always slower....so i must be faster than Usain Bolt...unless you mean there might be other exceptions.....i wonder if there any chance that DP is one of them
Naturally you sum up how athletic a big bloke is first, that's a given... think Ioane & Papalii are similar in height & weight as loosies, obviously Ioane is a much better athlete & has better ball skills.
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re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
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re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
It is not just their ages that are a concern, as you correctly pointed out, but mileage. I think, with exceptions, the shelf life of a rugby player is shorter now considering the increased physical nature of the game and shear number of games. Especially in the forwards. Injuries are usually a tell tale sign of wear and tear.
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@NZbloke lol fuck what? i had my doubts before, but now it's pretty clear you are a troll. Elaborate, but a troll account none the less.
@mariner4life his obsession with weights and size, makes me think he wants Hayman at no8. Blackdragon come on down…
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@mariner4life his obsession with weights and size, makes me think he wants Hayman at no8. Blackdragon come on down…
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life his obsession with weights and size, makes me think he wants Hayman at no8. Blackdragon come on down…
these young guys just need to practice more if they want to be heavier and... wait
dammit.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
It is not just their ages that are a concern, as you correctly pointed out, but mileage. I think, with exceptions, the shelf life of a rugby player is shorter now considering the increased physical nature of the game and shear number of games. Especially in the forwards. Injuries are usually a tell tale sign of wear and tear.
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
It is not just their ages that are a concern, as you correctly pointed out, but mileage. I think, with exceptions, the shelf life of a rugby player is shorter now considering the increased physical nature of the game and shear number of games. Especially in the forwards. Injuries are usually a tell tale sign of wear and tear.
you might be right, we saw it a lot of the last couple of years, several guys not playing more than a couple of game in a row, rested and rotated more than previously is my feeling
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@gt12 maybe it also screams out “we want to support you new players as much as we can, to be the best you can be”
If DeGroot needs a kick in the arse to sort out his fitness and they see him as the option they want post KT then I don’t see the problem except that there won’t be room for four loose heads if you include HodgmanWould your analysis change if Hodgman thought he was getting the Luatua treatment and signed overseas?
He's 28, seemingly not needed, and his value will much higher this year compared to next following the WC.
If not him then one of the others. There’s four good young looseheads in NZ and room for three in the ABs.
Sounds harsh but Hodgman might only have one RWC in him and when we turn around to look for a replacement one of the others has gone.
I really don’t have a preference which three of those four are in the squad at the end of the year but I also don’t assume that the selectors are doing this on a whim. They will have S&C data, scrum coach insight, game stats etc to work off. Maybe Hodgman comes in and DeGroot has to wait. Who knows?@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@gt12 maybe it also screams out “we want to support you new players as much as we can, to be the best you can be”
If DeGroot needs a kick in the arse to sort out his fitness and they see him as the option they want post KT then I don’t see the problem except that there won’t be room for four loose heads if you include HodgmanWould your analysis change if Hodgman thought he was getting the Luatua treatment and signed overseas?
He's 28, seemingly not needed, and his value will much higher this year compared to next following the WC.
If not him then one of the others. There’s four good young looseheads in NZ and room for three in the ABs.
Sounds harsh but Hodgman might only have one RWC in him and when we turn around to look for a replacement one of the others has gone.That may be unfortunate, but it's bad enough Test rugby is centred around a four yearly cycle, no need to compound on that arsehattery and extend it to two or more cycles.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
It is not just their ages that are a concern, as you correctly pointed out, but mileage. I think, with exceptions, the shelf life of a rugby player is shorter now considering the increased physical nature of the game and shear number of games. Especially in the forwards. Injuries are usually a tell tale sign of wear and tear.
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
It is not just their ages that are a concern, as you correctly pointed out, but mileage. I think, with exceptions, the shelf life of a rugby player is shorter now considering the increased physical nature of the game and shear number of games. Especially in the forwards. Injuries are usually a tell tale sign of wear and tear.
Sometimes even I have to acknowledge when @mariner4life talks sense (or possibly it just appears that way in contrast to the last couple of pages of nonsense by another poster)
I think we need to talk sensibly about BBBR though. Yep he doesn't have that long to go and he says that himself. However, I don't think he can be fairly judged on last year.
We know his body needed a break He dropped some kgs and went to Japan for some retirement money and a 'rest'. When he returned he also took a mental break just chilling with family before lacing up again.
I think it was only the need for an extended squad that actually had him playing last year. He was clearly a bit light and not firing. This year has been a different story. One of interruption with a broken finger. I'm not sure how that can be attributed to age. Once he got that big diesel engine going again though he was awesome and all the things we want. Smashing people in and around rucks, driving strongly in mauls carrying over the gain line.
I don't disagree that we can't and shouldn't expect the two 'veterans' to carry us through but I also see that they both hold value and discarding them would be a mistake.
SB is solid and Vai'i and Lord need to be grown into the jerseys.
Even if Whitelock has one good game left in him, I think we can be sure that he will bring it when needed. -
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
It is not just their ages that are a concern, as you correctly pointed out, but mileage. I think, with exceptions, the shelf life of a rugby player is shorter now considering the increased physical nature of the game and shear number of games. Especially in the forwards. Injuries are usually a tell tale sign of wear and tear.
Sometimes even I have to acknowledge when @mariner4life talks sense (or possibly it just appears that way in contrast to the last couple of pages of nonsense by another poster)
I think we need to talk sensibly about BBBR though. Yep he doesn't have that long to go and he says that himself. However, I don't think he can be fairly judged on last year.
We know his body needed a break He dropped some kgs and went to Japan for some retirement money and a 'rest'. When he returned he also took a mental break just chilling with family before lacing up again.
I think it was only the need for an extended squad that actually had him playing last year. He was clearly a bit light and not firing. This year has been a different story. One of interruption with a broken finger. I'm not sure how that can be attributed to age. Once he got that big diesel engine going again though he was awesome and all the things we want. Smashing people in and around rucks, driving strongly in mauls carrying over the gain line.
I don't disagree that we can't and shouldn't expect the two 'veterans' to carry us through but I also see that they both hold value and discarding them would be a mistake.
SB is solid and Vai'i and Lord need to be grown into the jerseys.
Even if Whitelock has one good game left in him, I think we can be sure that he will bring it when needed.@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
It is not just their ages that are a concern, as you correctly pointed out, but mileage. I think, with exceptions, the shelf life of a rugby player is shorter now considering the increased physical nature of the game and shear number of games. Especially in the forwards. Injuries are usually a tell tale sign of wear and tear.
Sometimes even I have to acknowledge when @mariner4life talks sense (or possibly it just appears that way in contrast to the last couple of pages of nonsense by another poster)
I think we need to talk sensibly about BBBR though. Yep he doesn't have that long to go and he says that himself. However, I don't think he can be fairly judged on last year.
We know his body needed a break He dropped some kgs and went to Japan for some retirement money and a 'rest'. When he returned he also took a mental break just chilling with family before lacing up again.
I think it was only the need for an extended squad that actually had him playing last year. He was clearly a bit light and not firing. This year has been a different story. One of interruption with a broken finger. I'm not sure how that can be attributed to age. Once he got that big diesel engine going again though he was awesome and all the things we want. Smashing people in and around rucks, driving strongly in mauls carrying over the gain line.
I don't disagree that we can't and shouldn't expect the two 'veterans' to carry us through but I also see that they both hold value and discarding them would be a mistake.
SB is solid and Vai'i and Lord need to be grown into the jerseys.
Even if Whitelock has one good game left in him, I think we can be sure that he will bring it when needed.my only concern is can he keep that engine going strong for another 18 months....or are we going to get into next year and he'll be back to fumes and we'll be scrambling around looking for a RWC replacement...should we have bitten the bullet and committed the next 18 months to getting one of the young guys up to speed
dont know what the right call is..time will tell
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
It is not just their ages that are a concern, as you correctly pointed out, but mileage. I think, with exceptions, the shelf life of a rugby player is shorter now considering the increased physical nature of the game and shear number of games. Especially in the forwards. Injuries are usually a tell tale sign of wear and tear.
Sometimes even I have to acknowledge when @mariner4life talks sense (or possibly it just appears that way in contrast to the last couple of pages of nonsense by another poster)
I think we need to talk sensibly about BBBR though. Yep he doesn't have that long to go and he says that himself. However, I don't think he can be fairly judged on last year.
We know his body needed a break He dropped some kgs and went to Japan for some retirement money and a 'rest'. When he returned he also took a mental break just chilling with family before lacing up again.
I think it was only the need for an extended squad that actually had him playing last year. He was clearly a bit light and not firing. This year has been a different story. One of interruption with a broken finger. I'm not sure how that can be attributed to age. Once he got that big diesel engine going again though he was awesome and all the things we want. Smashing people in and around rucks, driving strongly in mauls carrying over the gain line.
I don't disagree that we can't and shouldn't expect the two 'veterans' to carry us through but I also see that they both hold value and discarding them would be a mistake.
SB is solid and Vai'i and Lord need to be grown into the jerseys.
Even if Whitelock has one good game left in him, I think we can be sure that he will bring it when needed.my only concern is can he keep that engine going strong for another 18 months....or are we going to get into next year and he'll be back to fumes and we'll be scrambling around looking for a RWC replacement...should we have bitten the bullet and committed the next 18 months to getting one of the young guys up to speed
dont know what the right call is..time will tell
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
It is not just their ages that are a concern, as you correctly pointed out, but mileage. I think, with exceptions, the shelf life of a rugby player is shorter now considering the increased physical nature of the game and shear number of games. Especially in the forwards. Injuries are usually a tell tale sign of wear and tear.
Sometimes even I have to acknowledge when @mariner4life talks sense (or possibly it just appears that way in contrast to the last couple of pages of nonsense by another poster)
I think we need to talk sensibly about BBBR though. Yep he doesn't have that long to go and he says that himself. However, I don't think he can be fairly judged on last year.
We know his body needed a break He dropped some kgs and went to Japan for some retirement money and a 'rest'. When he returned he also took a mental break just chilling with family before lacing up again.
I think it was only the need for an extended squad that actually had him playing last year. He was clearly a bit light and not firing. This year has been a different story. One of interruption with a broken finger. I'm not sure how that can be attributed to age. Once he got that big diesel engine going again though he was awesome and all the things we want. Smashing people in and around rucks, driving strongly in mauls carrying over the gain line.
I don't disagree that we can't and shouldn't expect the two 'veterans' to carry us through but I also see that they both hold value and discarding them would be a mistake.
SB is solid and Vai'i and Lord need to be grown into the jerseys.
Even if Whitelock has one good game left in him, I think we can be sure that he will bring it when needed.my only concern is can he keep that engine going strong for another 18 months....or are we going to get into next year and he'll be back to fumes and we'll be scrambling around looking for a RWC replacement...should we have bitten the bullet and committed the next 18 months to getting one of the young guys up to speed
dont know what the right call is..time will tell
But isn't that what is happening? Or at least what could be happening but we don't know yet? I can see BBBR and Whitelock being benched regularly to give others a start and/or playing 40 minutes max.
I'm not sure what some are calling for here? Just chuck Vai'i and Lord in against Ireland? Or start Va'i and SB with Lord on the bench? All seems a bit crazy.
As long as the selectors have a plan to have two fresh young guys that aren't entirely green and three with lots of experience at the RWC that will be fine.
I don't see it being otherwise at the moment. -
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
It is not just their ages that are a concern, as you correctly pointed out, but mileage. I think, with exceptions, the shelf life of a rugby player is shorter now considering the increased physical nature of the game and shear number of games. Especially in the forwards. Injuries are usually a tell tale sign of wear and tear.
Sometimes even I have to acknowledge when @mariner4life talks sense (or possibly it just appears that way in contrast to the last couple of pages of nonsense by another poster)
I think we need to talk sensibly about BBBR though. Yep he doesn't have that long to go and he says that himself. However, I don't think he can be fairly judged on last year.
We know his body needed a break He dropped some kgs and went to Japan for some retirement money and a 'rest'. When he returned he also took a mental break just chilling with family before lacing up again.
I think it was only the need for an extended squad that actually had him playing last year. He was clearly a bit light and not firing. This year has been a different story. One of interruption with a broken finger. I'm not sure how that can be attributed to age. Once he got that big diesel engine going again though he was awesome and all the things we want. Smashing people in and around rucks, driving strongly in mauls carrying over the gain line.
I don't disagree that we can't and shouldn't expect the two 'veterans' to carry us through but I also see that they both hold value and discarding them would be a mistake.
SB is solid and Vai'i and Lord need to be grown into the jerseys.
Even if Whitelock has one good game left in him, I think we can be sure that he will bring it when needed.my only concern is can he keep that engine going strong for another 18 months....or are we going to get into next year and he'll be back to fumes and we'll be scrambling around looking for a RWC replacement...should we have bitten the bullet and committed the next 18 months to getting one of the young guys up to speed
dont know what the right call is..time will tell
But isn't that what is happening? Or at least what could be happening but we don't know yet? I can see BBBR and Whitelock being benched regularly to give others a start and/or playing 40 minutes max.
I'm not sure what some are calling for here? Just chuck Vai'i and Lord in against Ireland? Or start Va'i and SB with Lord on the bench? All seems a bit crazy.
As long as the selectors have a plan to have two fresh young guys that aren't entirely green and three with lots of experience at the RWC that will be fine.
I don't see it being otherwise at the moment.@Crucial and it might be what theyre planning, i hope so....i just have a unfounded fear that even though the squad has some new young names....our 23's are going to look very familiar
i think we've become a bit gun shy about throwing new guys in against tough opposition, i feel previously we felt coming through NPC and super rugby prepared guys well for the final step up to international rugby, even against top opposition...less so now
I'd like to see lord of vaai start with one of the older guys, not just off the bench
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
Papallii has never had the pace to be a link player at 7
Are you on drugs ? ...do you even realize a 7 should be a fetcher, an openside has to have the pace to link up with the backs, especially with the speed the ABs play, that isn't Papalii, he's too slow for the position & weighs about 115kg, which is why he's better suited to 6 or 8.
Hahaha, good one Murray Dickhead.... yeah I've never played rugby and I'm on an array of drugs - yet my insight into rugby, players and coaching is still light years beyond your basic, clichéd dross. That must be embarrassing.
Papalii is quicker than Cane, sharpen up.
You're a clown, as usual logic goes straight out the window with you - Cane is obviously the faster of the two, also he's 103kg, Whereas Papalii is 113kg.
@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
Papallii has never had the pace to be a link player at 7
Are you on drugs ? ...do you even realize a 7 should be a fetcher, an openside has to have the pace to link up with the backs, especially with the speed the ABs play, that isn't Papalii, he's too slow for the position & weighs about 115kg, which is why he's better suited to 6 or 8.
Hahaha, good one Murray Dickhead.... yeah I've never played rugby and I'm on an array of drugs - yet my insight into rugby, players and coaching is still light years beyond your basic, clichéd dross. That must be embarrassing.
Papalii is quicker than Cane, sharpen up.
You're a clown, as usual logic goes straight out the window with you - Cane is obviously the faster of the two, also he's 103kg, Whereas Papalii is 113kg.
Can you give us some examples of this ?
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@Crucial and it might be what theyre planning, i hope so....i just have a unfounded fear that even though the squad has some new young names....our 23's are going to look very familiar
i think we've become a bit gun shy about throwing new guys in against tough opposition, i feel previously we felt coming through NPC and super rugby prepared guys well for the final step up to international rugby, even against top opposition...less so now
I'd like to see lord of vaai start with one of the older guys, not just off the bench
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2022:
@Crucial and it might be what theyre planning, i hope so....i just have a unfounded fear that even though the squad has some new young names....our 23's are going to look very familiar
i think we've become a bit gun shy about throwing new guys in against tough opposition, i feel previously we felt coming through NPC and super rugby prepared guys well for the final step up to international rugby, even against top opposition...less so now
I'd like to see lord of vaai start with one of the older guys, not just off the bench
Prepare to be disappointed in the first 23 named then. I think experience will win out over youth.
It is critical that we win this game or, not only will we be scrambling for solutions and not owning the process but will give Ireland a huge boost of confidence.The games against Australia are where we will have more leeway for gametime and hopefully we can also be one up and a good lead in the second against Ireland to throw open the bench.
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@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
Papallii has never had the pace to be a link player at 7
Are you on drugs ? ...do you even realize a 7 should be a fetcher, an openside has to have the pace to link up with the backs, especially with the speed the ABs play, that isn't Papalii, he's too slow for the position & weighs about 115kg, which is why he's better suited to 6 or 8.
Hahaha, good one Murray Dickhead.... yeah I've never played rugby and I'm on an array of drugs - yet my insight into rugby, players and coaching is still light years beyond your basic, clichéd dross. That must be embarrassing.
Papalii is quicker than Cane, sharpen up.
You're a clown, as usual logic goes straight out the window with you - Cane is obviously the faster of the two, also he's 103kg, Whereas Papalii is 113kg.
Can you give us some examples of this ?
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2022:
@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@Bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@NZbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
Papallii has never had the pace to be a link player at 7
Are you on drugs ? ...do you even realize a 7 should be a fetcher, an openside has to have the pace to link up with the backs, especially with the speed the ABs play, that isn't Papalii, he's too slow for the position & weighs about 115kg, which is why he's better suited to 6 or 8.
Hahaha, good one Murray Dickhead.... yeah I've never played rugby and I'm on an array of drugs - yet my insight into rugby, players and coaching is still light years beyond your basic, clichéd dross. That must be embarrassing.
Papalii is quicker than Cane, sharpen up.
You're a clown, as usual logic goes straight out the window with you - Cane is obviously the faster of the two, also he's 103kg, Whereas Papalii is 113kg.
Can you give us some examples of this ?
Don't be silly. It's just plain common sense that he is. He is lighter.
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@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
re: the locks
one of the positions i care about.
I am far more wary of this supposed "next level" that Scott Barrett, a 6-year All Black, is suddenly going to find. Perfectly adequate player, but not a point of difference, and should be easily upgraded on. Good man to have in the squad though, as he'll do a job. Does try a bit hard to be something he is not though, hence the fucking idiotic cards.
The veterans aren't that old, but have huge miles on the clock. And because they have been so fucking good, it's sort of landed us where we are. Both get a huge workload in terms of minutes, and what we expect them to do. And we have never built depth because no one could get a look in.
If i was coaching (and lets be thankful that i am not) i would be rotating through them. Vaa'i is their obvious choice of the youngsters, so he would get lots of minutes next to one of Retallick and Whitelock. Barrett on the bench as a safety option. And i would be giving them very fucking specific roles too (clean rucks you old fucks). It involves coaching and man management, but it's necessary. Because it would be very easy to cruise through another year running them in to the ground, playing huge minutes and getting them to do everything. And we are in the same spot in 12 months, except it's now riskier.
It is not just their ages that are a concern, as you correctly pointed out, but mileage. I think, with exceptions, the shelf life of a rugby player is shorter now considering the increased physical nature of the game and shear number of games. Especially in the forwards. Injuries are usually a tell tale sign of wear and tear.
Sometimes even I have to acknowledge when @mariner4life talks sense (or possibly it just appears that way in contrast to the last couple of pages of nonsense by another poster)
I think we need to talk sensibly about BBBR though. Yep he doesn't have that long to go and he says that himself. However, I don't think he can be fairly judged on last year.
We know his body needed a break He dropped some kgs and went to Japan for some retirement money and a 'rest'. When he returned he also took a mental break just chilling with family before lacing up again.
I think it was only the need for an extended squad that actually had him playing last year. He was clearly a bit light and not firing. This year has been a different story. One of interruption with a broken finger. I'm not sure how that can be attributed to age. Once he got that big diesel engine going again though he was awesome and all the things we want. Smashing people in and around rucks, driving strongly in mauls carrying over the gain line.
I don't disagree that we can't and shouldn't expect the two 'veterans' to carry us through but I also see that they both hold value and discarding them would be a mistake.
SB is solid and Vai'i and Lord need to be grown into the jerseys.
Even if Whitelock has one good game left in him, I think we can be sure that he will bring it when needed.@Crucial Well I hope that he shows something this year that wasn't there last year and maybe for the reasons you expressed. I think Vaai shaded him against the Crusaders and I am not touting him as our next great lock. Of course whether the present crowd in charge of the All Blacks can get the best out of the forwards is another matter.
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@akan004 How is Devlin a sports journalist?
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I'm quietly confident in the team, most players seem to be moving in the right direction...sure some arent, but often when surrounded by players on the up, it can lift you.
Our shortcomings seem pretty basic and easy to see, I know our coaches have talked about them too, key is if they can do anything about them.
I think there are numerous backline options that excite me, and I think the potential is there for them to tear any one up, even if we barely get parity up front, its just whether the exciting combos not only get the chance, but the chance to gel!
As I keep saying, if our props can pick up thier workrate around the park (carrying, cleaning, tackling) it will take some of the heat off our locks, giving them a bit more freedom, which will help alot of our game.
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i would be astounded if the first test 23 doesn't closely match the 23 from the last Ireland test
and with good reason. The coaches think it was an aberration based on external factors and fatigue. They need to test that hypothesis.
