Foster, Robertson etc
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@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
@Daffy-Jaffy said in Foster must go:
But I don't understand. Rennie is a brilliant coach...
It’s also about your opponents. 16 of Rennie’s 23 games have been France, England, New Zealand and South Africa. Not much padding going on there,
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@Victor-Meldrew It's a high performance role, and the standards should be high. if they're not met, changes should happen. That requires a significant change from the NZRU, who gave us a debacle of a selection process then appointed a coach without successful head coaching experience, then extended his contract far further that they should have based on nothing.
To go from that to dropping someone in the deep end taking over a rabble with bugger-all prep before SA in SA and then judging them on that would be fish-tailing. There should be a sensible middle ground, with clear goals, and a little leeway for the short notice.
Regardless the current coaches have to go. Not only is there no visible improvement, they are going backwards.@reprobate said in Foster must go:
There should be a sensible middle ground, with clear goals, and a little leeway for the short notice.
9 Tests to see some significant approval seems more than reasonable to me.
Regardless the current coaches have to go. Not only is there no visible improvement, they are going backwards.
And we should apply exactly the same criteria to any new coaches after the November EOYT.
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When looking at improvement i think you'd need to look at how they are playing not just purely results - especially when the new coach would be asked to go Africa for 2 tests straight away.
The problem with Foster isn't just the results - it's how they are playing.
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What is an acceptable win rate in this ultra-competitive environment? France with 73% is the high water mark, perhaps we just need to accept that the Henry/Hansen area will likely never be repeated and if we go to the Nations League system, we will play the top teams once every year. With such competition I don't think we can except the dominance we once had.
I think for me a goal should be 70% and the losses are close and we can see a gameplan etc.
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@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
I don’t disagree with that. Ironically I suspect that Foster is a good bloke and would be fun to have a beer and a yarn with. But he just doesn’t seem to know what to do to get this group of talented athletes working coherently together.
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What is an acceptable win rate in this ultra-competitive environment? France with 73% is the high water mark, perhaps we just need to accept that the Henry/Hansen area will likely never be repeated and if we go to the Nations League system, we will play the top teams once every year. With such competition I don't think we can except the dominance we once had.
I think for me a goal should be 70% and the losses are close and we can see a gameplan etc.
@chimoaus For Fozzie to be up with Hansen and Henry he basically only needs to have won four games that he didn't.
Cards have a bit more influence on outcomes than in the Henry era especially, but it's not hard to find Foster games that a better coach would have won.
The TAB pretty clearly thought Saturday's game. The loss to the Argies. The first draw vs Australia. Any loss to Australia.
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@chimoaus For Fozzie to be up with Hansen and Henry he basically only needs to have won four games that he didn't.
Cards have a bit more influence on outcomes than in the Henry era especially, but it's not hard to find Foster games that a better coach would have won.
The TAB pretty clearly thought Saturday's game. The loss to the Argies. The first draw vs Australia. Any loss to Australia.
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@Chris-B if blenheim's favorite son Jamie Joe was coaching the Abs in any of those games then the results would've been flipped is what you're saying
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@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
I don’t disagree with that. Ironically I suspect that Foster is a good bloke and would be fun to have a beer and a yarn with. But he just doesn’t seem to know what to do to get this group of talented athletes working coherently together.
@JC said in Foster must go:
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
I don’t disagree with that. Ironically I suspect that Foster is a good bloke and would be fun to have a beer and a yarn with. But he just doesn’t seem to know what to do to get this group of talented athletes working coherently together.
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
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@JC said in Foster must go:
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
I don’t disagree with that. Ironically I suspect that Foster is a good bloke and would be fun to have a beer and a yarn with. But he just doesn’t seem to know what to do to get this group of talented athletes working coherently together.
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
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One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
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@JC said in Foster must go:
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
I don’t disagree with that. Ironically I suspect that Foster is a good bloke and would be fun to have a beer and a yarn with. But he just doesn’t seem to know what to do to get this group of talented athletes working coherently together.
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
isnt that part of the role though?
@Bovidae which is all well and good, but is this stopping him from making some hard calls? His job is the 1st part, he can be mates after, and professional players need to know he is thier 'boss' first, and mate second too, and decisions he has to make, are in the interest of the team, not personal.
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One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
@Bovidae said in Foster must go:
One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
He wasn't there in 2015.
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@Bovidae said in Foster must go:
One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
He wasn't there in 2015.
@Frye said in Foster must go:
@Bovidae said in Foster must go:
One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
He wasn't there in 2015.
Yes he was. Foster has been an assistant since 2012.
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@Catogrande said in Foster must go:
@TheMojoman said in Foster must go:
Foster by the numbers - https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300639756/the-charts-that-put-ian-fosters-all-blacks-coaching-record-in-sharp-perspective
Looking at those stats, you have to feel a bit sorry for the flak that Vodanovich is getting on here. 40% of his tests were against a very good Lions side I think.
He wasn't rated by the players from what I've read. According to them, his idea of coaching was to simply train the team to exhaustion and hope for the best tactics-wise on the day. Zero innovation.
There was a huge exodus of experienced players from the AB's after the 1970 tour and some have given him as the reason. IIRC Chris Laidlaw was particularly scathing.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Catogrande said in Foster must go:
@TheMojoman said in Foster must go:
Foster by the numbers - https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300639756/the-charts-that-put-ian-fosters-all-blacks-coaching-record-in-sharp-perspective
Looking at those stats, you have to feel a bit sorry for the flak that Vodanovich is getting on here. 40% of his tests were against a very good Lions side I think.
He wasn't rated by the players from what I've read. According to them, his idea of coaching was to simply train the team to exhaustion and hope for the best tactics-wise on the day. Zero innovation.
There was a huge exodus of experienced players from the AB's after the 1970 tour and some have given him as the reason. IIRC Chris Laidlaw was particularly scathing.
McLean said something along the lines that he took away a rugby team and came back with a team of cross country runners.
The one that is quite interesting to me is JJ Stewart, who was very highly regarded.
The team he took to SA played some good rugby, but a major stumbling point was not having a decent goalkicker who could make the test side (Lozza was that man). We ended up using Sid Going and Bryan Williams and they were terrible - my memory says way below 50 percent.
It was only at that point in our rugby history that we learned (almost conclusively) that a good goalkicker is a necessity. We've occasionally flirted with substandard ones since.
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Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
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Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
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@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
@Machpants said in Foster must go:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
Or beat up a woman Frizzel bad.
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@Machpants said in Foster must go:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
Or beat up a woman Frizzel bad.
@Kirwan said in Foster must go:
@Machpants said in Foster must go:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
Or beat up a woman Frizzel bad.
He didn't get dropped, he just got a rest to reset
