Foster, Robertson etc
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@JC said in Foster must go:
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
I don’t disagree with that. Ironically I suspect that Foster is a good bloke and would be fun to have a beer and a yarn with. But he just doesn’t seem to know what to do to get this group of talented athletes working coherently together.
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
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One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
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@JC said in Foster must go:
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
@antipodean said in Foster must go:
“That statement from the CEO really annoys me,” Kirwan said.
“Why doesn’t Mark Robinson come out and say we’ve got faith [in Ian Foster]? The CEO needs to come out and go ‘we’ve done a review six months ago, we’re confident of turning it around, [it’s] only three test matches.’
“He’s throwing his coach under the bus, people!”
Well, he'd know all about that.
Situation maybe feeling a bit to familiar to him perhaps?Well it might be, but I'm not very sympathetic to it. Quite frankly I'm sick of seeing "mental health" used as a synonym for "don't critique me" for poor performances in professional settings. These aren't amateurs who stepped up to the plate because no one else would do it.
There will be MASSIVE pressure on Foster as there should be and you’re right. He could have said no to the job and he’s been paid a huge salary. On face value it is very easy to put the boot in.
……but the more empathetic side of me does feel for him a bit and how stressed, unhappy and unhealthy he looks when he fronts the media.
He just looks utterly resigned to a shit situation and bereft of ideas of how to sort it.
I don’t disagree with that. Ironically I suspect that Foster is a good bloke and would be fun to have a beer and a yarn with. But he just doesn’t seem to know what to do to get this group of talented athletes working coherently together.
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
isnt that part of the role though?
@Bovidae which is all well and good, but is this stopping him from making some hard calls? His job is the 1st part, he can be mates after, and professional players need to know he is thier 'boss' first, and mate second too, and decisions he has to make, are in the interest of the team, not personal.
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One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
@Bovidae said in Foster must go:
One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
He wasn't there in 2015.
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@Bovidae said in Foster must go:
One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
He wasn't there in 2015.
@Frye said in Foster must go:
@Bovidae said in Foster must go:
One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
He wasn't there in 2015.
Yes he was. Foster has been an assistant since 2012.
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@Catogrande said in Foster must go:
@TheMojoman said in Foster must go:
Foster by the numbers - https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300639756/the-charts-that-put-ian-fosters-all-blacks-coaching-record-in-sharp-perspective
Looking at those stats, you have to feel a bit sorry for the flak that Vodanovich is getting on here. 40% of his tests were against a very good Lions side I think.
He wasn't rated by the players from what I've read. According to them, his idea of coaching was to simply train the team to exhaustion and hope for the best tactics-wise on the day. Zero innovation.
There was a huge exodus of experienced players from the AB's after the 1970 tour and some have given him as the reason. IIRC Chris Laidlaw was particularly scathing.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Catogrande said in Foster must go:
@TheMojoman said in Foster must go:
Foster by the numbers - https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300639756/the-charts-that-put-ian-fosters-all-blacks-coaching-record-in-sharp-perspective
Looking at those stats, you have to feel a bit sorry for the flak that Vodanovich is getting on here. 40% of his tests were against a very good Lions side I think.
He wasn't rated by the players from what I've read. According to them, his idea of coaching was to simply train the team to exhaustion and hope for the best tactics-wise on the day. Zero innovation.
There was a huge exodus of experienced players from the AB's after the 1970 tour and some have given him as the reason. IIRC Chris Laidlaw was particularly scathing.
McLean said something along the lines that he took away a rugby team and came back with a team of cross country runners.
The one that is quite interesting to me is JJ Stewart, who was very highly regarded.
The team he took to SA played some good rugby, but a major stumbling point was not having a decent goalkicker who could make the test side (Lozza was that man). We ended up using Sid Going and Bryan Williams and they were terrible - my memory says way below 50 percent.
It was only at that point in our rugby history that we learned (almost conclusively) that a good goalkicker is a necessity. We've occasionally flirted with substandard ones since.
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Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
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Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
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@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
@Machpants said in Foster must go:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
Or beat up a woman Frizzel bad.
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@Machpants said in Foster must go:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
Or beat up a woman Frizzel bad.
@Kirwan said in Foster must go:
@Machpants said in Foster must go:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
Or beat up a woman Frizzel bad.
He didn't get dropped, he just got a rest to reset
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@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
@Machpants said in Foster must go:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
Getting dropped from the AB's has been difficult since the later part of the Hansen tenure
This squad actually had a few players with 15+ Tests cut: Weber, TJ, Bridge, Frizell
Worth noting that the experienced guys that didn't make the side weren't in the tight five. Tinkering with the backs and loosies but missing the root cause of the ABs issues
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One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
@Bovidae said in Foster must go:
One other thing mentioned by Newshub was that Foster is well liked and respected by the players. Perhaps he has some credit in the bank as an assistant coach that won a RWC. This wasn't true of some of the current assistant coaches.
But in the end, the head coach is responsible for the overall plan and vision so if the assistant coaches aren't up to it they need to be replaced. AB coaches don't have a history of going all-Eddie Jones though.
That was one of the key 'pros' to his appointment wasn't it. The players said that he was very good and that they respected him.
It just seems that this next step up is a step too far and what works for him as an assistant doesn't as a head -
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
isnt that part of the role though?
@Bovidae which is all well and good, but is this stopping him from making some hard calls? His job is the 1st part, he can be mates after, and professional players need to know he is thier 'boss' first, and mate second too, and decisions he has to make, are in the interest of the team, not personal.
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
isnt that part of the role though?
It's more subtle than that. I'm sure you've come across people that can get a message across but then hear someone that takes that to another level. Someone that inspires belief simply in their manner.
I took what Kirwan was saying was that he thought he was doing it right but it wasn't the really top level that is needed in very high performance teams. At that level it made him crap. -
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
@KiwiMurph That makes sense. I wonder whether that is the source of the problem. Foster plays the benevolent father figure telling players not to be robots and play what’s in front of them, while his assistants are sending out completely different messages. The players are told to work on problems and then the goalposts move depending on whom they are talking to.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial said in Foster must go:
Kirwan summed it up best on the Breakdown. He admitted his own experience of being a crap coach and how it doesn't matter what your plans and ideas are you will fall short in you can't get those messages across clearly and it becomes a downward spiral held together by close results that mask the primary issue.
isnt that part of the role though?
It's more subtle than that. I'm sure you've come across people that can get a message across but then hear someone that takes that to another level. Someone that inspires belief simply in their manner.
I took what Kirwan was saying was that he thought he was doing it right but it wasn't the really top level that is needed in very high performance teams. At that level it made him crap.@Crucial we all have, but these are professional athletes that have been in the system for years, and should be able to deal with the messages they are getting (from various sources) sure some may need extra attention, but again, that comes back to him as the leader to know which buttons to push, and how to get the best out of each player, whether that requires a senior player to mentor them or another coach to be thier go to, or whatever, it is like any workplace where there will inevitably be some personality issues that require a different approach.
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@Machpants said in Foster must go:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
Getting dropped from the AB's has been difficult since the later part of the Hansen tenure
This squad actually had a few players with 15+ Tests cut: Weber, TJ, Bridge, Frizell
Worth noting that the experienced guys that didn't make the side weren't in the tight five. Tinkering with the backs and loosies but missing the root cause of the ABs issues
@Duluth said in Foster must go:
Worth noting that the experienced guys that didn't make the side weren't in the tight five. Tinkering with the backs and loosies but missing the root cause of the ABs issues
Likely also a reflection that they don't have full confidence in the younger tight five players, particularly the front rowers. Aumua is great in open play but questions remain over his scrummaging and lineout throwing. They've taken a punt with Vaa'i and Lord but not really dropped anyone to accomodate them, and neither has played as much as they could (injury and covid have played a part here). Ross has been selected now, and before him Hodgman and de Groot, so there is uncertainty over who the next best LH is. Moody is also in the background. Most importantly, there was a missed opportunity to select a younger TH in this squad while still retaining some experience.
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@Crucial we all have, but these are professional athletes that have been in the system for years, and should be able to deal with the messages they are getting (from various sources) sure some may need extra attention, but again, that comes back to him as the leader to know which buttons to push, and how to get the best out of each player, whether that requires a senior player to mentor them or another coach to be thier go to, or whatever, it is like any workplace where there will inevitably be some personality issues that require a different approach.
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial we all have, but these are professional athletes that have been in the system for years, and should be able to deal with the messages they are getting (from various sources) sure some may need extra attention, but again, that comes back to him as the leader to know which buttons to push, and how to get the best out of each player, whether that requires a senior player to mentor them or another coach to be thier go to, or whatever, it is like any workplace where there will inevitably be some personality issues that require a different approach.
Who's to say that isn't the level this lot are at. Ireland themselves lay a heap of praise at the feet of Farrell as he has that x factor that provides confidence and belief.
To be the best we need one of those coaches. -
@Machpants said in Foster must go:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster must go:
Yes I very much get the sense Foster has created a 'happy' environment in that he is well liked and treats people well.
The problem is he hasn't created a high performance environment.
Yeah I'm sure they're happy, they have to be George Bridge bad before they're dropped!
Getting dropped from the AB's has been difficult since the later part of the Hansen tenure
This squad actually had a few players with 15+ Tests cut: Weber, TJ, Bridge, Frizell
Worth noting that the experienced guys that didn't make the side weren't in the tight five. Tinkering with the backs and loosies but missing the root cause of the ABs issues
@Duluth said in Foster must go:
Worth noting that the experienced guys that didn't make the side weren't in the tight five. Tinkering with the backs and loosies but missing the root cause of the ABs issues
Yes it's interesting to hear there was a lot of chat at the end of last year/start of this year that the ABs front row had to improve.
Then they turn around and select the exact same props and starting hooker except Ross for the injured Moody. The best performing prop is only starting because Moody is injured.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go:
@Crucial we all have, but these are professional athletes that have been in the system for years, and should be able to deal with the messages they are getting (from various sources) sure some may need extra attention, but again, that comes back to him as the leader to know which buttons to push, and how to get the best out of each player, whether that requires a senior player to mentor them or another coach to be thier go to, or whatever, it is like any workplace where there will inevitably be some personality issues that require a different approach.
Who's to say that isn't the level this lot are at. Ireland themselves lay a heap of praise at the feet of Farrell as he has that x factor that provides confidence and belief.
To be the best we need one of those coaches.@Crucial it's more the way JK is sticking his oar in, TBH I think he is approaching this taking the mental health of Fozzie into account more than the results.
As I said in one of the multiple Fozzie threads, I do feel for him, this cant be easy, and no doubt his family probably copping it form a small number of absolute fucktards, but by the same token, this is a pretty high powered job in NZ< it used to be said they were more important than the PM didnt it...so with that comes the responsibility and scrutiny, which will sadly be stressful, and draw the trolls too.
