Foster, Robertson etc
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If that article @Tim posted is on the money, Foster will continue after 20 years of professional coaching averageness. Arguably, no substantive consequences for him.
As a digression: under that model, Foster will still keep his job and apparently significant salary, propped up by a former Steamers coach and Tauranga Boys College Deputy Principal to save the day. And Sam Cane - a good Bay of Plenty lad, long time All Blacks servant, and Captain - will be the one thrown under the bus instead. So... @mariner4life ... if you don't feel some blue and yellow tinged outrage brewing by now...
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@Dan54 said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
I don’t think anyone is out to shred foster the man to shreds
You obviously haven't been reading the Fern or social media....
I think they erred on the side of caution and actually did the right thing, even though it looks a bit OTT. Though Foster seemed OK with the idea of a presser, though we don't know about Cane. NZR were putting their employees first when they were under pressure and that's no bad thing.
(Cue umpteen posts arguing Foster isn't an employee, but is a contractor...)
I disagree. The could have given journalists a code of contact with an emphasis that no personal attacks would be tolerated. But there are hard Qs to be asked...Ian, in the first test the ABs tried out wide passes from Aaron Smith. In the 2nd test, Ireland adjusted and this tactic was utterly nullified. Why didn't you adjust again for the 3rd test? Or, the ABs put up a lot of non-contestable midfield bombs in good attacking positions, which gave away hard-earned possession for no gain. Could you explain the reasoning behind this approach?
Is this type of Q "being mean" or "character assassination"??
Nah. You don't take the risk if you are concerned about your people. You err on the side of caution. It's a game of rugby FFS, not a life-changing event.
We’re obviously not going to agree but if the guy can’t handle a press conference he’s not going to handle a RWC.
It's got bugger all to do with Foster handling a presser or not.. It's about an NZR employee making a call on employee welfare which you disagree with. I'd suggest they were in a better position to make that call than you or I were.
It’s a red warning for me when you need media minders. There’s a thin line between that and propaganda control, censors etc. You’re getting into FIFA, Russia, China territory.
Hate to tell you yhis Billy, but every sports ream in world have them, there has been a media manager with ABs, Wallabies, Irish, Boks , Olympic teams etc etc forever and a day!
I’m fully aware. But they don’t usually cancel PC. I don’t see why a code of conduct etc wouldn’t suffice.
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
@Dan54 said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
I don’t think anyone is out to shred foster the man to shreds
You obviously haven't been reading the Fern or social media....
I think they erred on the side of caution and actually did the right thing, even though it looks a bit OTT. Though Foster seemed OK with the idea of a presser, though we don't know about Cane. NZR were putting their employees first when they were under pressure and that's no bad thing.
(Cue umpteen posts arguing Foster isn't an employee, but is a contractor...)
I disagree. The could have given journalists a code of contact with an emphasis that no personal attacks would be tolerated. But there are hard Qs to be asked...Ian, in the first test the ABs tried out wide passes from Aaron Smith. In the 2nd test, Ireland adjusted and this tactic was utterly nullified. Why didn't you adjust again for the 3rd test? Or, the ABs put up a lot of non-contestable midfield bombs in good attacking positions, which gave away hard-earned possession for no gain. Could you explain the reasoning behind this approach?
Is this type of Q "being mean" or "character assassination"??
Nah. You don't take the risk if you are concerned about your people. You err on the side of caution. It's a game of rugby FFS, not a life-changing event.
We’re obviously not going to agree but if the guy can’t handle a press conference he’s not going to handle a RWC.
It's got bugger all to do with Foster handling a presser or not.. It's about an NZR employee making a call on employee welfare which you disagree with. I'd suggest they were in a better position to make that call than you or I were.
It’s a red warning for me when you need media minders. There’s a thin line between that and propaganda control, censors etc. You’re getting into FIFA, Russia, China territory.
Hate to tell you yhis Billy, but every sports ream in world have them, there has been a media manager with ABs, Wallabies, Irish, Boks , Olympic teams etc etc forever and a day!
I’m fully aware. But they don’t usually cancel PC. I don’t see why a code of conduct etc wouldn’t suffice.
Actually mate that's what they do, set up PCs as such, but you right I not sure how many they cancel, but to be honest have never taken notice. I pretty sure it's not first time though.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Bones said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Worse than anything you get in the UK - and that's saying something.
Why?
The dog-whistle implication that the coaching staff are racist for a start.
Comes across as a bloke who was denied the chance of a rant at the expected presser.
That’s bullshit. At no point has Reason implied he’s racist. No point.
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
That’s bullshit. At no point has Reason implied he’s racist. No point.
Really? (note my dog-whistle comment)
I do not see Māori and Pasifika flourishing under the current regime, as they have flourished in the past few seasons under Robertson, McDonald and McMillan at their Super Rugby clubs. Just the opposite, in fact, with the noble exception of Ardie Savea. -
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell I don’t have a problem with use of fish heads but if you do, then no issues.
Language aside … what do you disagree with in his column?
The way it’s written rather than the conclusions.
“One is a magician, the other shares a nickname with a muppet.”
Is this journalism?? Or tabloid stuff.
He’s making his point by drawing a parallel.
Ultimately what he saying is Foster was never the right man for the job and should never have been appointed.
No disagreement from me.
Why doesn’t he just say that then? But we have foster is a fish head and a muppet (if you don’t think he’s calling foster a muppet then it’s a lost cause). And what’s with the Maori & pasifika flourishing crap?
@Billy-Tell it’s an opinion piece - he can write it as he wishes. Not the words I’d choose but hey ho.
I think the Maori / Pasifika thing is based on a well trodden line that they need to be coached differently … and Foster simply hasn’t got the goods for this.
Just a guess there. I completely disagree with Meldrew here, that it’s racism tho.
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@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
Reason is literally saying everything that’s been said on here for ages. The ‘pasifika’ comment is a bit weird but the rest is pretty spot on.
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@Billy-Tell it’s an opinion piece - he can write it as he wishes. Not the words I’d choose but hey ho.
I think the Maori / Pasifika thing is based on a well trodden line that they need to be coached differently … and Foster simply hasn’t got the goods for this.
Just a guess there. I completely disagree with Meldrew here, that it’s racism tho.
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
Just a guess there. I completely disagree with Meldrew here, that it’s racism tho.
Credit to you for thinking the best of people, but it stuck out like a sore thumb for me.
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@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
Reason is literally saying everything that’s been said on here for ages. The ‘pasifika’ comment is a bit weird but the rest is pretty spot on.
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
Reason is literally saying everything that’s been said on here for ages. The ‘pasifika’ comment is a bit weird but the rest is pretty spot on.
He’s not literally saying it because it’s a written article
(Grammar Nazi alert)
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@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
Reason is literally saying everything that’s been said on here for ages. The ‘pasifika’ comment is a bit weird but the rest is pretty spot on.
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
Reason is literally saying everything that’s been said on here for ages. The ‘pasifika’ comment is a bit weird but the rest is pretty spot on.
Yep probably hit it on head, Reason is saying what he has read on internet, it's how people without real skills sell stories, find unhappy posts etc and feed the people more of that. I just saw some of that during covid etc, if a journalist wanted to get read they followed what was on net and followed that, it's how some try to stand out in a competitive market. Generally we as readers will see an ex AB say Foster has to go, and if we agree, we think that the man is a genius, if we don't he's an idiot and what does he know. Same in press , a writer who doesn't agree with us is an idiot or NZR stooge etc, and one we agree with is a great writer. It sems to of become even more prevalant since internet became a thing.
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(Fwiw stuff have already replied explaining why they considered article acceptable for publication - fair play to them for getting back to me, and rapidly)
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@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
Reason is literally saying everything that’s been said on here for ages. The ‘pasifika’ comment is a bit weird but the rest is pretty spot on.
Yep probably hit it on head, Reason is saying what he has read on internet, it's how people without real skills sell stories, find unhappy posts etc and feed the people more of that. I just saw some of that during covid etc, if a journalist wanted to get read they followed what was on net and followed that, it's how some try to stand out in a competitive market. Generally we as readers will see an ex AB say Foster has to go, and if we agree, we think that the man is a genius, if we don't he's an idiot and what does he know. Same in press , a writer who doesn't agree with us is an idiot or NZR stooge etc, and one we agree with is a great writer. It sems to of become even more prevalant since internet became a thing.
@Dan54 said in Foster must go:
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
Reason is literally saying everything that’s been said on here for ages. The ‘pasifika’ comment is a bit weird but the rest is pretty spot on.
Yep probably hit it on head, Reason is saying what he has read on internet, it's how people without real skills sell stories, find unhappy posts etc and feed the people more of that. I just saw some of that during covid etc, if a journalist wanted to get read they followed what was on net and followed that, it's how some try to stand out in a competitive market. Generally we as readers will see an ex AB say Foster has to go, and if we agree, we think that the man is a genius, if we don't he's an idiot and what does he know. Same in press , a writer who doesn't agree with us is an idiot or NZR stooge etc, and one we agree with is a great writer. It sems to of become even more prevalant since internet became a thing.
Yep, I’m certainly not going so far as to say it was an entertaining well written piece…..but he did at least tell it like it is. I don’t think he deserves to be censored for that
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@Dan54 said in Foster must go:
@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
Reason is literally saying everything that’s been said on here for ages. The ‘pasifika’ comment is a bit weird but the rest is pretty spot on.
Yep probably hit it on head, Reason is saying what he has read on internet, it's how people without real skills sell stories, find unhappy posts etc and feed the people more of that. I just saw some of that during covid etc, if a journalist wanted to get read they followed what was on net and followed that, it's how some try to stand out in a competitive market. Generally we as readers will see an ex AB say Foster has to go, and if we agree, we think that the man is a genius, if we don't he's an idiot and what does he know. Same in press , a writer who doesn't agree with us is an idiot or NZR stooge etc, and one we agree with is a great writer. It sems to of become even more prevalant since internet became a thing.
Yep, I’m certainly not going so far as to say it was an entertaining well written piece…..but he did at least tell it like it is. I don’t think he deserves to be censored for that
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@MN5 I certainly hope that Stuff had the lawyers eye it before publication. There are multiple defamation cases in there.
@MrDenmore said in Foster must go:
@MN5 I certainly hope that Stuff had the lawyers eye it before publication. There are multiple defamation cases in there.
It’s just an opinion piece though ?
( waiting for another ferner who knows more about this to come on and tell me I’m completely wrong, possibly with some justification )
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@MrDenmore said in Foster must go:
@MN5 I certainly hope that Stuff had the lawyers eye it before publication. There are multiple defamation cases in there.
It’s just an opinion piece though ?
( waiting for another ferner who knows more about this to come on and tell me I’m completely wrong, possibly with some justification )
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@MrDenmore said in Foster must go:
@MN5 I’m a former journalist and editor. Opinion is no defence.
Good enough for me.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Catogrande said in Foster must go:
@TheMojoman said in Foster must go:
Foster by the numbers - https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300639756/the-charts-that-put-ian-fosters-all-blacks-coaching-record-in-sharp-perspective
Looking at those stats, you have to feel a bit sorry for the flak that Vodanovich is getting on here. 40% of his tests were against a very good Lions side I think.
He wasn't rated by the players from what I've read. According to them, his idea of coaching was to simply train the team to exhaustion and hope for the best tactics-wise on the day. Zero innovation.
There was a huge exodus of experienced players from the AB's after the 1970 tour and some have given him as the reason. IIRC Chris Laidlaw was particularly scathing.
McLean said something along the lines that he took away a rugby team and came back with a team of cross country runners.
The one that is quite interesting to me is JJ Stewart, who was very highly regarded.
The team he took to SA played some good rugby, but a major stumbling point was not having a decent goalkicker who could make the test side (Lozza was that man). We ended up using Sid Going and Bryan Williams and they were terrible - my memory says way below 50 percent.
It was only at that point in our rugby history that we learned (almost conclusively) that a good goalkicker is a necessity. We've occasionally flirted with substandard ones since.
@Chris-B Still got 150 posts to read to catch up, but can't proceed without commenting on your JJ Stewart points.
After the Vodanovich / Duff eras JJ revolutionised AB rugby. Cleared out the dead wood and changed the culture and attacking ethos of the team. Much like what is needed today.
It is true that we suffered from a lack of a reliable kicker but even more so from dirty fucking cheating Saffa refs. Which is why fans of a certain age will always hate losing to SA more than anyone else.
You are spot on with Vodanovich though. The parallels with Fozzie are quite stark. Only got the job because he served his time and was sort of last man standing. Took over from an iconic coach who had dome it all. Inherited a team with (more that) a few players in decline. Sounds like he was a genuine nice guy, but had no fucking clue.
Then when this was apparent to everyone after the 70 tour the fish heads at NZRFU (as was) reappointed him for the Lions tour.....
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@MN5 said in Foster must go:
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
Reason is literally saying everything that’s been said on here for ages. The ‘pasifika’ comment is a bit weird but the rest is pretty spot on.
Yep probably hit it on head, Reason is saying what he has read on internet, it's how people without real skills sell stories, find unhappy posts etc and feed the people more of that. I just saw some of that during covid etc, if a journalist wanted to get read they followed what was on net and followed that, it's how some try to stand out in a competitive market. Generally we as readers will see an ex AB say Foster has to go, and if we agree, we think that the man is a genius, if we don't he's an idiot and what does he know. Same in press , a writer who doesn't agree with us is an idiot or NZR stooge etc, and one we agree with is a great writer. It sems to of become even more prevalant since internet became a thing.
@Dan54 said in Foster must go:
Generally we as readers will see an ex AB say Foster has to go, and if we agree, we think that the man is a genius, if we don't he's an idiot and what does he know. Same in press , a writer who doesn't agree with us is an idiot or NZR stooge etc, and one we agree with is a great writer.
What I find interesting is looking at the reasoning for keeping Foster and the support he's received in the press / rugby community.
As far I can see the support to keep Foster boils down to 3 areas.
- Cost. The financial cost of removing Foster and his assistants
- Timing. That changing the coach right now is not ideal with a squad due to depart for RSA soon
- He's a good man and deserves support and 'will turn it around'. Typically from players that played under him.
Even amongst his supporters there doesn't seem to be a great deal of belief or detail.
It doesn't help him that radio silence from NZR has basically left him out to dry for the past few days.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster must go:
@voodoo yep. They are the Storm, Collingwood, Celtics, Liverpool - can’t stand them. My old man taught me from a young age that the Boks were dirty, cheating, gold watch giving, neanderthals
Love Sth Africa and the people are kind and very hospitable, but their rugby team - there is no love, nope, nada, zilch.
Exactly how I was raised. Kiwis are awesome but the ABs are are the Aliens in Space Jam, the Wardens in the Longest Yard, the Ring Wraiths, T2000 and the Golden Horde.
But that’s why I’d rather lose to you than those other pretenders, filler villains the lot of em. They think they’re the Joker but they’re really just the 80s cartoon Riddler. It’s just embarrassing when our inner demons let them get a temporary upper hand.
Sort your shit out. The forces of light, truth and Justice need a worthy nemesis.
@Smuts said in Foster must go:
The forces of light, truth and Justice need a worthy nemesis
we do
It's Hawkes Bay. And they have our Shield the thieving fuckers
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@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
@MajorRage said in Foster must go:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster must go:
Over at Stuff
"Mark Reason: The fishheads who are stinking out the All Blacks"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300640271/mark-reason-the-fishheads-who-are-stinking-out-the-all-blacksAnyone else find this type of journalism totally unacceptable
Agree with every single thing he says.
Why do you think it’s unacceptable?
People on massive salaries get paid it because they have to accept colossal criticism when they fail to meet their kpi’s.
People who think this is unacceptable have been listening to too much Cindy.
yep, can't see the problem there. I agree with basically everything he says.
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Foster will remain until the end of the domestic season. A few assistants might get the arse now, and new boys bought in on short term contracts until end of rugby championship.
If we keep getting arsed through the rest of season, new coach and his band of merry men will take over on end of year tour.
So Fozzy will be there as we lose the Bled Cup, go 0 for 2 against the Boers, and add another tick to the L column against the Island Stealers.
Unless Fozz falls on his sword through those disasters. 6 tests 5 losses....
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