Foster, Robertson etc
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@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/burned-by-beirne-is-the-all-blacks-engine-room-coming-off-the-rails/
@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/burned-by-beirne-is-the-all-blacks-engine-room-coming-off-the-rails/
No doubt at all the Beirne is a class player. I can't see the connection between his class and the ABs though.
Shorter story is that we used to be ahead of the pack because we played with a speed of thought that our players grew up with as a natural way of playing whereas NH players didn't quite come to the same levels of instinctiveness in handling and running. We spread it from the backs to the forwards while their backs were still getting there but now, not only have they caught up but their larger playing numbers, money, coaching setups etc have helped them find players to get past us.This is generational stuff not just 'smarter play'. They used to scoff at our basketball rugby while secretly admiring it at copying it.
The playing field isn't just level now it has tipped their way and the sooner we acknowledge that the better.
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@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
Author was Nick Bishop.
Must watch out for him
In fact Meads debuted at flanker and also played Eight early on. [Could have] Did play[ed] back row with ease!
Yeah, really skilled forwards were quite common then - props scoring drop goals, locks appearing in midfield and sidestepping opposition backs and others doing off-loads that SBW would die for. Far less bulky than now, of course, and the game was played at a much slower pace but the skills have always been there.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
Author was Nick Bishop.
Must watch out for him
In fact Meads debuted at flanker and also played Eight early on. [Could have] Did play[ed] back row with ease!
Yeah, really skilled forwards were quite common then - props scoring drop goals, locks appearing in midfield and sidestepping opposition backs and others doing off-loads that SBW would die for. Far less bulky than now, of course, and the game was played at a much slower pace but the skills have always been there.
Check out Pinetree at 56 and at 1.38:
Can remember an early SBW run/stroll for the ABs, ball in one hand, and thinking how it reminded me of the Tree.
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@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/burned-by-beirne-is-the-all-blacks-engine-room-coming-off-the-rails/
No doubt at all the Beirne is a class player. I can't see the connection between his class and the ABs though.
Shorter story is that we used to be ahead of the pack because we played with a speed of thought that our players grew up with as a natural way of playing whereas NH players didn't quite come to the same levels of instinctiveness in handling and running. We spread it from the backs to the forwards while their backs were still getting there but now, not only have they caught up but their larger playing numbers, money, coaching setups etc have helped them find players to get past us.This is generational stuff not just 'smarter play'. They used to scoff at our basketball rugby while secretly admiring it at copying it.
The playing field isn't just level now it has tipped their way and the sooner we acknowledge that the better.
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/burned-by-beirne-is-the-all-blacks-engine-room-coming-off-the-rails/
No doubt at all the Beirne is a class player. I can't see the connection between his class and the ABs though.
Shorter story is that we used to be ahead of the pack because we played with a speed of thought that our players grew up with as a natural way of playing whereas NH players didn't quite come to the same levels of instinctiveness in handling and running. We spread it from the backs to the forwards while their backs were still getting there but now, not only have they caught up but their larger playing numbers, money, coaching setups etc have helped them find players to get past us.This is generational stuff not just 'smarter play'. They used to scoff at our basketball rugby while secretly admiring it at copying it.
The playing field isn't just level now it has tipped their way and the sooner we acknowledge that the better.
Ireland have fewer players than NZ, less revenues (€84m Vs €116m), had a €10m deficit last financial year Vs NZ who just posted a profit after 4 years of deficits.
If money was everything, England would be far and away no.1.
Ireland have had a plan, put structures in place to implement it and have extracted the maximum out of their player base (indigenous and naturalised) through good coaching and their provinces working together for he good of Irish rugby but at the same time keeping their independent playing styles.
A lot like the NZ model, no? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
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@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/burned-by-beirne-is-the-all-blacks-engine-room-coming-off-the-rails/
No doubt at all the Beirne is a class player. I can't see the connection between his class and the ABs though.
Shorter story is that we used to be ahead of the pack because we played with a speed of thought that our players grew up with as a natural way of playing whereas NH players didn't quite come to the same levels of instinctiveness in handling and running. We spread it from the backs to the forwards while their backs were still getting there but now, not only have they caught up but their larger playing numbers, money, coaching setups etc have helped them find players to get past us.This is generational stuff not just 'smarter play'. They used to scoff at our basketball rugby while secretly admiring it at copying it.
The playing field isn't just level now it has tipped their way and the sooner we acknowledge that the better.
Ireland have fewer players than NZ, less revenues (€84m Vs €116m), had a €10m deficit last financial year Vs NZ who just posted a profit after 4 years of deficits.
If money was everything, England would be far and away no.1.
Ireland have had a plan, put structures in place to implement it and have extracted the maximum out of their player base (indigenous and naturalised) through good coaching and their provinces working together for he good of Irish rugby but at the same time keeping their independent playing styles.
A lot like the NZ model, no? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
@stodders said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/burned-by-beirne-is-the-all-blacks-engine-room-coming-off-the-rails/
No doubt at all the Beirne is a class player. I can't see the connection between his class and the ABs though.
Shorter story is that we used to be ahead of the pack because we played with a speed of thought that our players grew up with as a natural way of playing whereas NH players didn't quite come to the same levels of instinctiveness in handling and running. We spread it from the backs to the forwards while their backs were still getting there but now, not only have they caught up but their larger playing numbers, money, coaching setups etc have helped them find players to get past us.This is generational stuff not just 'smarter play'. They used to scoff at our basketball rugby while secretly admiring it at copying it.
The playing field isn't just level now it has tipped their way and the sooner we acknowledge that the better.
Ireland have fewer players than NZ, less revenues (€84m Vs €116m), had a €10m deficit last financial year Vs NZ who just posted a profit after 4 years of deficits.
If money was everything, England would be far and away no.1.
Ireland have had a plan, put structures in place to implement it and have extracted the maximum out of their player base (indigenous and naturalised) through good coaching and their provinces working together for he good of Irish rugby but at the same time keeping their independent playing styles.
A lot like the NZ model, no? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
The comments weren’t all directed at Ireland. However money still plays a part whether it is employing non national coaches and players or, over a generation, luring non Irish players into internal comps to spread the “gospel” and lift the standard.
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@chchfanatic said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants would you like to put a wager on it. You name the price.
if @chchfanatic is that confident he is probably right.He has a source, Some things he has told me have been dead right.
@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@chchfanatic said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants would you like to put a wager on it. You name the price.
if @chchfanatic is that confident he is probably right.He has a source, Some things he has told me have been dead right.
The first leg of Leon coming in sounds highly likely.
It's already rumoured and Mooar's departure leaves space.
The rest would mean Fozzie is already a dead man walking. Might be contingent on improvement or lack of it.
Quite a logical plan, though - even if Joe doesn't ever take the reins.
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Hansen not happy, you can put some of this on him, we stagnated from late in his time at the helm to now, plus he endorsed Fozzie so this tarnishes his rep too.
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@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@chchfanatic said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants would you like to put a wager on it. You name the price.
if @chchfanatic is that confident he is probably right.He has a source, Some things he has told me have been dead right.
The first leg of Leon coming in sounds highly likely.
It's already rumoured and Mooar's departure leaves space.
The rest would mean Fozzie is already a dead man walking. Might be contingent on improvement or lack of it.
Quite a logical plan, though - even if Joe doesn't ever take the reins.
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
The rest would mean Fozzie is already a dead man walking. Might be contingent on improvement or lack of it.
Quite a logical plan, though - even if Joe doesn't ever take the reins.it's not logical it's awful
If some random dude from ChCh knows this plan. Then every single person in the AB camp does too. How the fuck does that provide a high performance environment in the hardest place in the rugby world to tour?
Even if it is "contingent" it will still have an effect. And as a follower of the EPL, I've seen a lot of "x has 3 games to save his job" and guess how many have actually saved them?
If this is the plan, Foster should have been sacked last week. So this is either bad oil, or the NZRU are in a worse state than we all think.
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Hansen not happy, you can put some of this on him, we stagnated from late in his time at the helm to now, plus he endorsed Fozzie so this tarnishes his rep too.
@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Hansen not happy, you can put some of this on him, we stagnated from late in his time at the helm to now, plus he endorsed Fozzie so this tarnishes his rep too.
yeah fuck off Steve. Your overall point isn't wrong, but your angle on it absolutely is.
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@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@chchfanatic said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants would you like to put a wager on it. You name the price.
if @chchfanatic is that confident he is probably right.He has a source, Some things he has told me have been dead right.
The first leg of Leon coming in sounds highly likely.
It's already rumoured and Mooar's departure leaves space.
The rest would mean Fozzie is already a dead man walking. Might be contingent on improvement or lack of it.
Quite a logical plan, though - even if Joe doesn't ever take the reins.
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@chchfanatic said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants would you like to put a wager on it. You name the price.
if @chchfanatic is that confident he is probably right.He has a source, Some things he has told me have been dead right.
The first leg of Leon coming in sounds highly likely.
It's already rumoured and Mooar's departure leaves space.
The rest would mean Fozzie is already a dead man walking. Might be contingent on improvement or lack of it.
Quite a logical plan, though - even if Joe doesn't ever take the reins.
It would be a great plan,I still don't trust NZR to think that way .
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@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
The rest would mean Fozzie is already a dead man walking. Might be contingent on improvement or lack of it.
Quite a logical plan, though - even if Joe doesn't ever take the reins.it's not logical it's awful
If some random dude from ChCh knows this plan. Then every single person in the AB camp does too. How the fuck does that provide a high performance environment in the hardest place in the rugby world to tour?
Even if it is "contingent" it will still have an effect. And as a follower of the EPL, I've seen a lot of "x has 3 games to save his job" and guess how many have actually saved them?
If this is the plan, Foster should have been sacked last week. So this is either bad oil, or the NZRU are in a worse state than we all think.
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
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@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
The Random Dude does talk to a certain person in this equation.
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@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
I think it has been made really clear that Joe does not want that job.
It's quite funny that people keep demanding certain people in certain roles even when it is clear that they don't want those jobs at this moment.
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@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
The Random Dude does talk to a certain person in this equation.
@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
The Random Dude does talk to a certain person in this equation.
then we call that sauce around here, lets see if its a home brand or some gourmet shit
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@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
I think it has been made really clear that Joe does not want that job.
It's quite funny that people keep demanding certain people in certain roles even when it is clear that they don't want those jobs at this moment.
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
I think it has been made really clear that Joe does not want that job.
It's quite funny that people keep demanding certain people in certain roles even when it is clear that they don't want those jobs at this moment.
What someone says publicly doesn’t always translate to what might be happening behind the scenes or what eventuates. I’m not saying that I know that is the case here, but often what is said publicly is laden with agendas and caveats.
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@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
The Random Dude does talk to a certain person in this equation.
then we call that sauce around here, lets see if its a home brand or some gourmet shit
@bayimports said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
The Random Dude does talk to a certain person in this equation.
then we call that sauce around here, lets see if its a home brand or some gourmet shit
Last bottle of sauce I bought was a very good brand but still turned out to leave a sour taste.
Makes me wonder if the sauce makers are taking us for a ride. -
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
If that's NZR's grand plan, then they're going to be in a bit of a bind when Fozzie starts winning everything with more competent assistants.
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@bayimports said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
The Random Dude does talk to a certain person in this equation.
then we call that sauce around here, lets see if its a home brand or some gourmet shit
Last bottle of sauce I bought was a very good brand but still turned out to leave a sour taste.
Makes me wonder if the sauce makers are taking us for a ride.@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@bayimports said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
The Random Dude does talk to a certain person in this equation.
then we call that sauce around here, lets see if its a home brand or some gourmet shit
Last bottle of sauce I bought was a very good brand but still turned out to leave a sour taste.
Makes me wonder if the sauce makers are taking us for a ride.Last sauce I had a couple of months ago tasted fine a certain HB was signed by the crusaders.
But this one is someone else’s so who knows.
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@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@mariner4life A random dude in ChCh might know because the Crusaders (and the Blues) would have to be looking for new coaches.
But, yeah - if Fozzie is a dead man they should have buried him and Joe be taking the team to SA.
The Random Dude does talk to a certain person in this equation.
then we call that sauce around here, lets see if its a home brand or some gourmet shit
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@bayimports "SERIOUS gourmet shit!"
@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@bayimports "SERIOUS gourmet shit!"
bank this in case it turns out to be bang on
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
Author was Nick Bishop.
Must watch out for him
In fact Meads debuted at flanker and also played Eight early on. [Could have] Did play[ed] back row with ease!
Yeah, really skilled forwards were quite common then - props scoring drop goals, locks appearing in midfield and sidestepping opposition backs and others doing off-loads that SBW would die for. Far less bulky than now, of course, and the game was played at a much slower pace but the skills have always been there.
Check out Pinetree at 56 and at 1.38:
Can remember an early SBW run/stroll for the ABs, ball in one hand, and thinking how it reminded me of the Tree.
@pakman helps having probably the most innovative coach NZ has ever enjoyed. Shame they didn't include footage of the 67 UK Tour that would really have emphasised your point.
Crowds, sitting on the touchline, cotton jerseys, muddy fields toe kicking. Ahh real footy
