The Current State of Rugby
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Having watched Lindsay Collins knock himself out for the 2nd time in two games I have had another 180
Something has to be done to protect these guys from themselves
My problem is I don't know what that something is. What we are doing is not working. Maybe the answer is as @MiketheSnow says, ignore fans and media and ex-player Neanderthals like yours truly and have every head contact as red. No soak tackles, no incidental contact, no mitigation. Red card and 3 week suspension. We need to get rid of the current defence where its aimed at getting up as fast as possible winning space and collision, because that's where issues start. We need defenders to slow the fuck down, and get lower.
My problem is, this doesn't solve the problem. Repeated little hits are a bigger issue. And that's the breakdown. And training. Over a long career most of my issues come from breakdown hits.
Maybe, just maybe, the rugby codes don't have a future because I can't see a safe way forward.
@mariner4life not sure what golden oldies rules are universal but I reckon some of these could be taken into the real game which would take some of the physicality out.
From a penalty no quick tap
Players can kick the ball only in their own 22.
In line-outs all 8 forwards must take part
Once ball to deck, it is won, no contesting
Chest tackles are free kick (think they played this in North Harbour and some Auckland 1st 15)
Shoulder is auto YC
For me, accidental head contact is YC, but that player cannot returnSure some shit and unrecognisable from the game we loved, but where to, really?
Pick them apart!
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Having watched Lindsay Collins knock himself out for the 2nd time in two games I have had another 180
Something has to be done to protect these guys from themselves
My problem is I don't know what that something is. What we are doing is not working. Maybe the answer is as @MiketheSnow says, ignore fans and media and ex-player Neanderthals like yours truly and have every head contact as red. No soak tackles, no incidental contact, no mitigation. Red card and 3 week suspension. We need to get rid of the current defence where its aimed at getting up as fast as possible winning space and collision, because that's where issues start. We need defenders to slow the fuck down, and get lower.
My problem is, this doesn't solve the problem. Repeated little hits are a bigger issue. And that's the breakdown. And training. Over a long career most of my issues come from breakdown hits.
Maybe, just maybe, the rugby codes don't have a future because I can't see a safe way forward.
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
Maybe, just maybe, the rugby codes don't have a future because I can't see a safe way forward
Hope not but too many ex rugby players suffering serious long term damage and who knows where it could go
How many head knocks has Ratallick had now. Yet Porter wasn't red carded. I can understand the reason given but unsure if I agree with it. My view is this example should have been a red card. But reduce the card to 20 minutes and a red carded player has an automatic stand down period
But I stopped playing at 20. And only had one bad head knock in my playing days. And played at a level that was nothing compared to test or top level rugby today.
I
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@mariner4life not sure what golden oldies rules are universal but I reckon some of these could be taken into the real game which would take some of the physicality out.
From a penalty no quick tap
Players can kick the ball only in their own 22.
In line-outs all 8 forwards must take part
Once ball to deck, it is won, no contesting
Chest tackles are free kick (think they played this in North Harbour and some Auckland 1st 15)
Shoulder is auto YC
For me, accidental head contact is YC, but that player cannot returnSure some shit and unrecognisable from the game we loved, but where to, really?
Pick them apart!
@taniwharugby is this a product that anyone will watch?
And is this a game for all shapes and sizes?
Fuck trying to solve this issue
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@taniwharugby is this a product that anyone will watch?
And is this a game for all shapes and sizes?
Fuck trying to solve this issue
@mariner4life who knows, just throwing some ideas
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@taniwharugby is this a product that anyone will watch?
And is this a game for all shapes and sizes?
Fuck trying to solve this issue
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby is this a product that anyone will watch?
And is this a game for all shapes and sizes?
Fuck trying to solve this issue
I think you have to go back to fundamentals. For me the game is about the contest - in the air, at set piece, and particularly at the breakdown. The challenge is to find a way to encourage the contest, reward skill/strenght, without taking out the physicality that makes it worthwhile.
Sevens is the rugby backlines without the forward confrontation ,and it's cotton candy to watch. Nice for a few games, but I can't watch much of it.
To solve the problem, you have to figure out the issues you need to rectify, and the fundamentals you're trying to protect. I've outlined some fundamentals above.
Key head contact issues seem to be primarily the tackle (both tackler and carrier), and cleanouts at the breakdown area.
To me, you start to hit these in a couple of ways. One is to speed up the game, get the ball in play more ,and reward fitter, smaller players who aren't carrying the muscle. The second is to reset the breakdown, to find a way to avoid people coming in shoulder first to clean out jacklers. Maybe it's a 'wrestling' type activity at the ruck, rather than a physical cleanout. You could remove the contest for the ball - but that takes away some of what makes rugby special.
Evidence of how broken our laws are at the moment is the lack of competition at the breakdonw - choke tackles exist because getting the ball on teh ground almost inevitably results in the attacking side retaining possession. Hell, maybe it's going back to counter rucking - fight for the airspace above the ball - but by pushing/wrestling, rather than picking up the ball (no hands by anyone but the halfback?)
Bottom line is ya got to do something. The current mess isn't watchable;
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@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby is this a product that anyone will watch?
And is this a game for all shapes and sizes?
Fuck trying to solve this issue
I think you have to go back to fundamentals. For me the game is about the contest - in the air, at set piece, and particularly at the breakdown. The challenge is to find a way to encourage the contest, reward skill/strenght, without taking out the physicality that makes it worthwhile.
Sevens is the rugby backlines without the forward confrontation ,and it's cotton candy to watch. Nice for a few games, but I can't watch much of it.
To solve the problem, you have to figure out the issues you need to rectify, and the fundamentals you're trying to protect. I've outlined some fundamentals above.
Key head contact issues seem to be primarily the tackle (both tackler and carrier), and cleanouts at the breakdown area.
To me, you start to hit these in a couple of ways. One is to speed up the game, get the ball in play more ,and reward fitter, smaller players who aren't carrying the muscle. The second is to reset the breakdown, to find a way to avoid people coming in shoulder first to clean out jacklers. Maybe it's a 'wrestling' type activity at the ruck, rather than a physical cleanout. You could remove the contest for the ball - but that takes away some of what makes rugby special.
Evidence of how broken our laws are at the moment is the lack of competition at the breakdonw - choke tackles exist because getting the ball on teh ground almost inevitably results in the attacking side retaining possession. Hell, maybe it's going back to counter rucking - fight for the airspace above the ball - but by pushing/wrestling, rather than picking up the ball (no hands by anyone but the halfback?)
Bottom line is ya got to do something. The current mess isn't watchable;
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It's an old chestnut, and I can't imagine they would ever bring it back, but allowing rucking and banning the clean out would reduce a lot on injuries, including head injuries.
Edit - just noticed @Crucial beat me to it
@Crazy-Horse said in The Current State of Rugby:
It's an old chestnut, and I can't imagine they would ever bring it back, but allowing rucking and banning the clean out would reduce a lot on injuries, including head injuries.
Edit - just noticed @Crucial beat me to it
Just apply the laws that exist. Stay on feet, bind properly not after your shoulder hits. Head/shoulders above hips. No tackle at breakdown…..
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@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby is this a product that anyone will watch?
And is this a game for all shapes and sizes?
Fuck trying to solve this issue
I think you have to go back to fundamentals. For me the game is about the contest - in the air, at set piece, and particularly at the breakdown. The challenge is to find a way to encourage the contest, reward skill/strenght, without taking out the physicality that makes it worthwhile.
Sevens is the rugby backlines without the forward confrontation ,and it's cotton candy to watch. Nice for a few games, but I can't watch much of it.
To solve the problem, you have to figure out the issues you need to rectify, and the fundamentals you're trying to protect. I've outlined some fundamentals above.
Key head contact issues seem to be primarily the tackle (both tackler and carrier), and cleanouts at the breakdown area.
To me, you start to hit these in a couple of ways. One is to speed up the game, get the ball in play more ,and reward fitter, smaller players who aren't carrying the muscle. The second is to reset the breakdown, to find a way to avoid people coming in shoulder first to clean out jacklers. Maybe it's a 'wrestling' type activity at the ruck, rather than a physical cleanout. You could remove the contest for the ball - but that takes away some of what makes rugby special.
Evidence of how broken our laws are at the moment is the lack of competition at the breakdonw - choke tackles exist because getting the ball on teh ground almost inevitably results in the attacking side retaining possession. Hell, maybe it's going back to counter rucking - fight for the airspace above the ball - but by pushing/wrestling, rather than picking up the ball (no hands by anyone but the halfback?)
Bottom line is ya got to do something. The current mess isn't watchable;
@nzzp said in The Current State of Rugby:
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby is this a product that anyone will watch?
And is this a game for all shapes and sizes?
Fuck trying to solve this issue
I think you have to go back to fundamentals. For me the game is about the contest - in the air, at set piece, and particularly at the breakdown. The challenge is to find a way to encourage the contest, reward skill/strenght, without taking out the physicality that makes it worthwhile.
Sevens is the rugby backlines without the forward confrontation ,and it's cotton candy to watch. Nice for a few games, but I can't watch much of it.
To solve the problem, you have to figure out the issues you need to rectify, and the fundamentals you're trying to protect. I've outlined some fundamentals above.
Key head contact issues seem to be primarily the tackle (both tackler and carrier), and cleanouts at the breakdown area.
To me, you start to hit these in a couple of ways. One is to speed up the game, get the ball in play more ,and reward fitter, smaller players who aren't carrying the muscle. The second is to reset the breakdown, to find a way to avoid people coming in shoulder first to clean out jacklers. Maybe it's a 'wrestling' type activity at the ruck, rather than a physical cleanout. You could remove the contest for the ball - but that takes away some of what makes rugby special.
Evidence of how broken our laws are at the moment is the lack of competition at the breakdonw - choke tackles exist because getting the ball on teh ground almost inevitably results in the attacking side retaining possession. Hell, maybe it's going back to counter rucking - fight for the airspace above the ball - but by pushing/wrestling, rather than picking up the ball (no hands by anyone but the halfback?)
Bottom line is ya got to do something. The current mess isn't watchable;
This would solve not just the head issues IMO but also the space issues - turn the ruck into a pushing contest and you encourage more players to participate in thy contest and thereby open up space in other parts of the field
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Article by Charlie Morgan. I presume was originally a Telegraph article? He writes for them.
Gist is differing viewpoints in the hemispheres.
I didn't watch Origin, not my bag, so cant really comment. Not sure if it is a strawman argument or valid.
I dont watch MMA or boxing, I dont actually like watching people get knocked out. I dont fit into any sort of demographic Morgan is implying with the Origin allusion. I want a sport where people dont knock each other out, prepared to accept changes (likely less radical than 1992). I just don't see blanket reds as being that solution. Guess it comes down to litigation risks, though.
Back 4 years ago after watching my $100 test ticket become worthless after 10 minutes after some unco Frenchman tipped Beauden on his head. I came to the conclusion I would dis-engage with the sport until they sort out and adjust to a new equilibrium, it's been 4 years. Hurry up.
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This part:
Nobody is saying that New Zealand is in denial about concussion, yet nobody denies the disconnect between them and the prevailing philosophy of the northern hemisphere. The very notion is morbid, but more than one source suggested that it might take an earth-shattering announcement from an icon like Richie McCaw or Dan Carter to bring the two into line. We must hope it does not come to that.
Interesting that the NZ public had real concerns about how McCaw's head was targeted. Hence the Quade Cooper treatment.
We all have a bit of hypocrisy in us , that's human.
Those that derided the ugly NZ fan for the Cooper stuff (but, yes, it went on too long and list the original point...). As well as those who excuse the sins of their own side, of which I'm sure the Quade booers amongst us are as guilty as any others.
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Another thing I thought about today.
Those of you of an age to remember the 1990 FIFA world cup. And how it was 'ruined' by a refereeing clamp down on tackles from behind.
Fifa decided to use their flag piece to try to change a lifetime's habits of all players.
Eventually it worked. A tackle from behind is treated today as the 1990 change makers wanted. I dont know how long that took. Still problem then, for ages, of returning to club football and it being referred differently, and the the change of habit not carried through.
On that subject. I'd say in NZ we got the (and shared the) British editorial opinion that Fifa didn't know what they were doing , the fetish8ng of the tough centre back ... etc ...
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What a bullshit article
Fuck that guy
Almost every point is absolute bullshit
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Article by Charlie Morgan. I presume was originally a Telegraph article? He writes for them.
Gist is differing viewpoints in the hemispheres.
I didn't watch Origin, not my bag, so cant really comment. Not sure if it is a strawman argument or valid.
I dont watch MMA or boxing, I dont actually like watching people get knocked out. I dont fit into any sort of demographic Morgan is implying with the Origin allusion. I want a sport where people dont knock each other out, prepared to accept changes (likely less radical than 1992). I just don't see blanket reds as being that solution. Guess it comes down to litigation risks, though.
Back 4 years ago after watching my $100 test ticket become worthless after 10 minutes after some unco Frenchman tipped Beauden on his head. I came to the conclusion I would dis-engage with the sport until they sort out and adjust to a new equilibrium, it's been 4 years. Hurry up.
@Rapido ironically, that Frenchmans card was overturned and Gardner thrown under the bus...
As to the concussion, my anecdotal evidence says NZ is way ahead in players calling on themselves, one another (some might see this as cynical, but ultimately, I think the call is right) whereas other countries seem pretty lax about them...the 2 examples on the recent tour, the welsh have had issues too with allowing players to play when clearly they shouldnt.
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Following on from @MajorRage 's post on NH Rugby. The game is huge in Cornwall and a few rugby-types have expressed some real concern about the state of the amateur game.
Drop-off in participation which may be down to Covid and things will improve. At the junior level there's a worry that parents are seeing the game as dangerous with the talk about dementia and concussion
Concerns about insurance and medical claims
Feeling distanced by the RFU and that people who hold the money-bags like club owners don't have the roots of the game as a priority.
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This part:
Nobody is saying that New Zealand is in denial about concussion, yet nobody denies the disconnect between them and the prevailing philosophy of the northern hemisphere. The very notion is morbid, but more than one source suggested that it might take an earth-shattering announcement from an icon like Richie McCaw or Dan Carter to bring the two into line. We must hope it does not come to that.
Interesting that the NZ public had real concerns about how McCaw's head was targeted. Hence the Quade Cooper treatment.
We all have a bit of hypocrisy in us , that's human.
Those that derided the ugly NZ fan for the Cooper stuff (but, yes, it went on too long and list the original point...). As well as those who excuse the sins of their own side, of which I'm sure the Quade booers amongst us are as guilty as any others.
@Rapido said in The Current State of Rugby:
This part:
Nobody is saying that New Zealand is in denial about concussion, yet nobody denies the disconnect between them and the prevailing philosophy of the northern hemisphere. The very notion is morbid, but more than one source suggested that it might take an earth-shattering announcement from an icon like Richie McCaw or Dan Carter to bring the two into line. We must hope it does not come to that.
Interesting that the NZ public had real concerns about how McCaw's head was targeted. Hence the Quade Cooper treatment.
We all have a bit of hypocrisy in us , that's human.
Those that derided the ugly NZ fan for the Cooper stuff (but, yes, it went on too long and list the original point...). As well as those who excuse the sins of their own side, of which I'm sure the Quade booers amongst us are as guilty as any others.
This but from the article sticks in the craw a bit:
The loosehead prop started high, but absorbed the impact of Brodie Retallick. This did not help Retallick too much. He fractured his cheekbone. But the yellow card given by Barnes was upheld by a citing committee to leave New Zealanders perplexed.
You can’t tell us that we are somehow behind the rest of the world when it comes to player safety and then suggest that there was absolutely nothing wrong with Barnes’ ruling here.
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Following on from @MajorRage 's post on NH Rugby. The game is huge in Cornwall and a few rugby-types have expressed some real concern about the state of the amateur game.
Drop-off in participation which may be down to Covid and things will improve. At the junior level there's a worry that parents are seeing the game as dangerous with the talk about dementia and concussion
Concerns about insurance and medical claims
Feeling distanced by the RFU and that people who hold the money-bags like club owners don't have the roots of the game as a priority.
@Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:
Following on from @MajorRage 's post on NH Rugby. The game is huge in Cornwall and a few rugby-types have expressed some real concern about the state of the amateur game.
At the junior level there's a worry that parents are seeing the game as dangerous with the talk about dementia and concussion
Eliminating contact and tackling at the lower age groups is a factor I think
The younger you can learn the fundamentals of any sport, the better your technique will be
Look at something like gymnastics
Learning to tackle properly when the game is slower and the players (and ergo impact) are much smaller would bring through a generation of players who can grow into their bodies and the game
Just like it was when I began playing organised rugby in 1974 (8 years old)
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@Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:
Following on from @MajorRage 's post on NH Rugby. The game is huge in Cornwall and a few rugby-types have expressed some real concern about the state of the amateur game.
At the junior level there's a worry that parents are seeing the game as dangerous with the talk about dementia and concussion
Eliminating contact and tackling at the lower age groups is a factor I think
The younger you can learn the fundamentals of any sport, the better your technique will be
Look at something like gymnastics
Learning to tackle properly when the game is slower and the players (and ergo impact) are much smaller would bring through a generation of players who can grow into their bodies and the game
Just like it was when I began playing organised rugby in 1974 (8 years old)
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:
Following on from @MajorRage 's post on NH Rugby. The game is huge in Cornwall and a few rugby-types have expressed some real concern about the state of the amateur game.
At the junior level there's a worry that parents are seeing the game as dangerous with the talk about dementia and concussion
Eliminating contact and tackling at the lower age groups is a factor I think
The younger you can learn the fundamentals of any sport, the better your technique will be
Look at something like gymnastics
Learning to tackle properly when the game is slower and the players (and ergo impact) are much smaller would bring through a generation of players who can grow into their bodies and the game
Just like it was when I began playing organised rugby in 1974 (8 years old)
Ball and all upright tackles are a relatively new phenomenon. Back when I was young all the test players tackled around the waist or the legs. And rucking did a great job of self regulating rucks
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@Tim said in The Current State of Rugby:
Andy Powell's clothes-line on McCaw was one of the worst offences I've seen.
Hartley on McCaw, Skinstad on McCaw, Greyling on McCaw…
I am very skeptical about The cries of player safety from WR and the NH generally - completely self serving and cynical and their relative silence when it’s SH rugby players’ heads being bashed in is deafening
