Foster, Robertson etc
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@nostrildamus said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
I'm not arguing I'm just offering advice.
It is best to stick with Foster because to replace him now with another coach, who has a superior win record, is just inviting chaos. Unless we have criteria that would have kept out Foster, even though we didn't choose him and any criteria the NZR has for him is written in a foam contract with marker pens, locked away in Hansen's jockstrap.
No, far better to leave him there, with his invisible contract KPI and let the NZR in their infinite wisdom steal more of Razor's team to give to the guy who has just been strategic by firing half of his coaching team.
Best to rely on learnings. Like getting Shannon back and hey Jordie can still play on the wing with his new haircut. Ennor is proven class at midfield. And it's time to give Taylor a run at 6-everyone else has.
So why not let Razor and the others gain international experience by taking all their learnings to overseas teams.
Who, let us face it, already know the ABs gameplan inside and out so we might as well send all our future potential AB coaches overseas so they can share their secrets with our competitors.
So that is my advice. Leave the coach with one of the worse recent coaching records in control (if you can call it control) because there is a chance (as big as a shrew's penis) that we will get a worse coach if we actually want a coach who will win a series or two against any team higher than Tonga C or Australia B (if they choose another 10 straight out of high school). And let the other NZ coaches bugger off overseas because they dare to lead winning teams.I assume from the first line you're replying to me.
But nope, after reading your post thru 4-5 times, it still doesn't make any sense. Let's assume it was a poor attempt at irony or sarcasm from what you think my position is - so I'll try to help you as simply as I can as you seem to be struggling.
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I think Foster should have been replaced after the Irish series. I don't think he's all to blame for the majority of problems (which appear deep), but he's not the man to fix them either
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NZR needs to take a structured look at the problems in NZ rugby and work out short, medium and long term plans to resolve them. Communication would be good.
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Just as players can look class at SR level but suck at Test level (see Bridge, George) there's a risk that Coaches who look a million dollars at SR level won't at Test level.
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Changing the coach isn't a magic solution and also carries a high level of risk if it simply kicks the can of worms down the road very close to RWC 2023.
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To mitigate the risks, NZR should set a limit of, say, 9 games to demonstrate improvement. If that ain't forthcoming then the performance of the new coaching team needs to be re-evaluated and changes made as appropriate.
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There are no simple, magic solutions which are going to fix things quickly - it's probably going to take some time.
Hope that's clear.
@Victor-Meldrew Over the past 3-4 years I'd give the NZR 1/10. Depressingly amateurish.
They are more responsible for the current situation than the coaches IMO.Whichever way it goes the SA series is going to light this place up for sure. A lot to play for.
From a player POV the single biggest issue we have got is the forwards 1-5. Not easy to fix in the short term.
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i feel i just need to remind people...not everything is a silver bullet, yes, changing coach wont fix the problems with NZR...but it might at least go some way to turning around results...and thats still something....not doing somethign because it doesn;t fix EVERYTHING is how you completely stagnate
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@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew one key thing is I don't think our players, particularly our tight 5, are better than opposites any more.
In a lot of cases we are demonstrably worse. This seems to be a real lightning rod - folk don't want to accept that we are not world leaders with players any more.
What really annoys me is our lack of rugby intelligence. This isn't a quick fix, it's partially covered by Coaching and a game plan, but it runs deep in our game. Pessimistic, but real.
Yep.
Big parallels with NZ rugby after the '71 Lions tour. Then, too many people didn't smell the coffee, refused to accept our overall skills and player pool were poor and decided one new coach after another was the solution. We ended up with nearly a decade of below average teams before the penny dropped.
It was a shit period for an AB supporter.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Big parallels with NZ rugby after the '71 Lions tour. Then, too many people didn't smell the coffee, refused to accept our overall skills and player pool were poor and decided one new coach after another was the solution
so how did you guys discuss that back then to get that consensus, send one another letters?
:fishing_pole:seriously though, for me it isnt even about the score on the board, its about how we get there right now, how we play, showing we have learnt, can adapt and have a some direction is quite important now.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Big parallels with NZ rugby after the '71 Lions tour. Then, too many people didn't smell the coffee, refused to accept our overall skills and player pool were poor and decided one new coach after another was the solution
so how did you guys discuss that back then to get that consensus, send one another letters?
:fishing_pole:seriously though, for me it isnt even about the score on the board, its about how we get there right now, how we play, showing we have learnt, can adapt and have a some direction is quite important now.
@taniwharugby They bitched and moaned in the pub
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@nzzp said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew one key thing is I don't think our players, particularly our tight 5, are better than opposites any more.
In a lot of cases we are demonstrably worse. This seems to be a real lightning rod - folk don't want to accept that we are not world leaders with players any more.
What really annoys me is our lack of rugby intelligence. This isn't a quick fix, it's partially covered by Coaching and a game plan, but it runs deep in our game. Pessimistic, but real.
Yep.
Big parallels with NZ rugby after the '71 Lions tour. Then, too many people didn't smell the coffee, refused to accept our overall skills and player pool were poor and decided one new coach after another was the solution. We ended up with nearly a decade of below average teams before the penny dropped.
It was a shit period for an AB supporter.
@Victor-Meldrew The arrival of Jones, Zinny, Fitzpatrick and Kirwan was a good time.
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@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Taking Fozzie out of the equation should have happened by now imo. Hell, even letting the senior players run the team for a couple of weeks would probably lead to an improvement
Our best performance of the year so far (not saying much) was the first test win when Fozzie was in isolation.....
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i feel i just need to remind people...not everything is a silver bullet, yes, changing coach wont fix the problems with NZR...but it might at least go some way to turning around results...and thats still something....not doing somethign because it doesn;t fix EVERYTHING is how you completely stagnate
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
i feel i just need to remind people...not everything is a silver bullet, yes, changing coach wont fix the problems with NZR...but it might at least go some way to turning around results...and thats still something....not doing somethign because it doesn;t fix EVERYTHING is how you completely stagnate
Stagnation is a good word for what has happened I think. A team that went through a golden era and is hanging on to the same things that made them successful then and the world just passed on by.
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@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
yup I know.
actually I do think it is saying a lot.
Ireland have been lauded as a very good rugby side - which they are no doubt about it.
But because of the 2 losses and the nature of the losses, we have forgotten what we did in that first test. we scored 6 tries and beat them by 20 points.
Yes, Ireland had lots of possession that game and did some good things but were well beaten in that first match.
It does show that there is a team there but they are not being utilised properly.
Maybe i am a little too optimistic (which is ironic because the only time I have been on the fern recently is to vent!!) but I do believe that there can be a lot of improvements in this AB squad (on and off the field) with bteer leadership.
I'm also convinced our lack of good structure and game plan is at the core of our problems. Not bad cattle, although I am sure everyone can agree we don't have 2015 level personnel right now
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
yup I know.
actually I do think it is saying a lot.
Ireland have been lauded as a very good rugby side - which they are no doubt about it.
But because of the 2 losses and the nature of the losses, we have forgotten what we did in that first test. we scored 6 tries and beat them by 20 points.
Yes, Ireland had lots of possession that game and did some good things but were well beaten in that first match.
It does show that there is a team there but they are not being utilised properly.
Maybe i am a little too optimistic (which is ironic because the only time I have been on the fern recently is to vent!!) but I do believe that there can be a lot of improvements in this AB squad (on and off the field) with bteer leadership.
I'm also convinced our lack of good structure and game plan is at the core of our problems. Not bad cattle, although I am sure everyone can agree we don't have 2015 level personnel right now
I agree Canefan, we'll probably never have as many GOATs in one team as we did in 2015, but we have world class players littered throughout our team that other international sides would give anything to have line up for them. Easily enough to be 1 or 2 in the world rankings, there's far too much doom and gloom about our "current crop of players" on here at the moment.
Our current problems revolve around the fact that we have Foster at the helm trying to implement what appears to be the same game plan he was at the Chiefs. From the outside it looks like he is unable to innovate and evolve at all, so at the moment we have a mixture of what Hansen was trying to do in 2016 and what he was doing at the Chiefs, and we are just getting picked off easily by much smarter coaches. The fact we smacked Ireland in the first test is a testament to the brilliance of our best players - we didn't actually play well that game, Ireland played much smarter but got blown off the park by moments of magic.
It's also pretty clear Mark Robinson is way out of his depth as a CEO (has he ever held a CEO position before?) so I'd hope there is some pressure from shareholders etc for a change there.
Robertson would obviously be a big upgrade, but I'd really like to see Schmidt given the reigns and Robertson brought in as an assistant. That would give us one hell of a coaching group, and would give Robertson a pathway to the head coaching position when Schmidt steps aside.
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@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
yup I know.
actually I do think it is saying a lot.
Ireland have been lauded as a very good rugby side - which they are no doubt about it.
But because of the 2 losses and the nature of the losses, we have forgotten what we did in that first test. we scored 6 tries and beat them by 20 points.
Yes, Ireland had lots of possession that game and did some good things but were well beaten in that first match.
It does show that there is a team there but they are not being utilised properly.
Maybe i am a little too optimistic (which is ironic because the only time I have been on the fern recently is to vent!!) but I do believe that there can be a lot of improvements in this AB squad (on and off the field) with bteer leadership.
I'm also convinced our lack of good structure and game plan is at the core of our problems. Not bad cattle, although I am sure everyone can agree we don't have 2015 level personnel right now
I agree Canefan, we'll probably never have as many GOATs in one team as we did in 2015, but we have world class players littered throughout our team that other international sides would give anything to have line up for them. Easily enough to be 1 or 2 in the world rankings, there's far too much doom and gloom about our "current crop of players" on here at the moment.
Our current problems revolve around the fact that we have Foster at the helm trying to implement what appears to be the same game plan he was at the Chiefs. From the outside it looks like he is unable to innovate and evolve at all, so at the moment we have a mixture of what Hansen was trying to do in 2016 and what he was doing at the Chiefs, and we are just getting picked off easily by much smarter coaches. The fact we smacked Ireland in the first test is a testament to the brilliance of our best players - we didn't actually play well that game, Ireland played much smarter but got blown off the park by moments of magic.
It's also pretty clear Mark Robinson is way out of his depth as a CEO (has he ever held a CEO position before?) so I'd hope there is some pressure from shareholders etc for a change there.
Robertson would obviously be a big upgrade, but I'd really like to see Schmidt given the reigns and Robertson brought in as an assistant. That would give us one hell of a coaching group, and would give Robertson a pathway to the head coaching position when Schmidt steps aside.
@No-Quarter said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
yup I know.
actually I do think it is saying a lot.
Ireland have been lauded as a very good rugby side - which they are no doubt about it.
But because of the 2 losses and the nature of the losses, we have forgotten what we did in that first test. we scored 6 tries and beat them by 20 points.
Yes, Ireland had lots of possession that game and did some good things but were well beaten in that first match.
It does show that there is a team there but they are not being utilised properly.
Maybe i am a little too optimistic (which is ironic because the only time I have been on the fern recently is to vent!!) but I do believe that there can be a lot of improvements in this AB squad (on and off the field) with bteer leadership.
I'm also convinced our lack of good structure and game plan is at the core of our problems. Not bad cattle, although I am sure everyone can agree we don't have 2015 level personnel right now
I agree Canefan, we'll probably never have as many GOATs in one team as we did in 2015, but we have world class players littered throughout our team that other international sides would give anything to have line up for them. Easily enough to be 1 or 2 in the world rankings, there's far too much doom and gloom about our "current crop of players" on here at the moment.
Our current problems revolve around the fact that we have Foster at the helm trying to implement what appears to be the same game plan he was at the Chiefs. From the outside it looks like he is unable to innovate and evolve at all, so at the moment we have a mixture of what Hansen was trying to do in 2016 and what he was doing at the Chiefs, and we are just getting picked off easily by much smarter coaches. The fact we smacked Ireland in the first test is a testament to the brilliance of our best players - we didn't actually play well that game, Ireland played much smarter but got blown off the park by moments of magic.
It's also pretty clear Mark Robinson is way out of his depth as a CEO (has he ever held a CEO position before?) so I'd hope there is some pressure from shareholders etc for a change there.
Robertson would obviously be a big upgrade, but I'd really like to see Schmidt given the reigns and Robertson brought in as an assistant. That would give us one hell of a coaching group, and would give Robertson a pathway to the head coaching position when Schmidt steps aside.
Completely agree with the assessment of the players. I don't think anyone can deny that we had the players to win the 2003 SF, but very good players were made to look ordinary due to being tactically annihilated. And of course there were certain players playing out of position and that was ruthlessly exploited. I just look back to the start of the 2nd half of the French game last year as evidence that we can fůck shit up if we have to. But that kind of direct and aggressive play seems completely lacking at all other times, particularly at the start of games where we tend to get completely smashed and ship far too many points. Coaching continuity can be great but it can also lead to hubris, and by christ haven't we seen enough of that in the past few years.
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@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
yup I know.
actually I do think it is saying a lot.
Ireland have been lauded as a very good rugby side - which they are no doubt about it.
But because of the 2 losses and the nature of the losses, we have forgotten what we did in that first test. we scored 6 tries and beat them by 20 points.
Yes, Ireland had lots of possession that game and did some good things but were well beaten in that first match.
It does show that there is a team there but they are not being utilised properly.
Maybe i am a little too optimistic (which is ironic because the only time I have been on the fern recently is to vent!!) but I do believe that there can be a lot of improvements in this AB squad (on and off the field) with bteer leadership.
I'm also convinced our lack of good structure and game plan is at the core of our problems. Not bad cattle, although I am sure everyone can agree we don't have 2015 level personnel right now
I agree Canefan, we'll probably never have as many GOATs in one team as we did in 2015, but we have world class players littered throughout our team that other international sides would give anything to have line up for them. Easily enough to be 1 or 2 in the world rankings, there's far too much doom and gloom about our "current crop of players" on here at the moment.
Our current problems revolve around the fact that we have Foster at the helm trying to implement what appears to be the same game plan he was at the Chiefs. From the outside it looks like he is unable to innovate and evolve at all, so at the moment we have a mixture of what Hansen was trying to do in 2016 and what he was doing at the Chiefs, and we are just getting picked off easily by much smarter coaches. The fact we smacked Ireland in the first test is a testament to the brilliance of our best players - we didn't actually play well that game, Ireland played much smarter but got blown off the park by moments of magic.
It's also pretty clear Mark Robinson is way out of his depth as a CEO (has he ever held a CEO position before?) so I'd hope there is some pressure from shareholders etc for a change there.
Robertson would obviously be a big upgrade, but I'd really like to see Schmidt given the reigns and Robertson brought in as an assistant. That would give us one hell of a coaching group, and would give Robertson a pathway to the head coaching position when Schmidt steps aside.
@No-Quarter said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
It's also pretty clear Mark Robinson is way out of his depth as a CEO (has he ever held a CEO position before?) so I'd hope there is some pressure from shareholders etc for a change there.
CEO of Taranaki for 5 years, on NZR Board for 7 years prior to this job.
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I was trying to show I was referring to your avatar and not you as a person. Clearly didn’t do it very well!
You have contributed a lot to the thread and offered a different point of view than most who are ready to burn Foster at the stake.
You quite rightly state their are lots of issues in Nz rugby and a new coach won’t fix those or necessarily did all the problems with the All Blacks.
I might be paraphrasing but You argued that because foster has lost 2 games in a row then that should be the years stuck for the new coach. Which is seriously flawed.
Foster has underwhelmed as AB coach since his first test match in charge which he was lucky to draw against an Oz side that selected its players from the teams that were routinely put to the sword by Nz super teams. But he was lucky to come out with a draw.
Unfortunately, he has dragged the ABs down to his level and we are regressing under his leadership - nothing we are doing can be considered world class at international level.
We need to take the ABs in isolation and look to fix the problems of that squad. Arguing that we should stick with the status who as we don’t know that the next guy will be better is just accepting mediocrity and not recognising that we have better talent available to lead the squad.
Taking Fozzie out of the equation should have happened by now imo. Hell, even letting the senior players run the team for a couple of weeks would probably lead to an improvement
@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
I was trying to show I was referring to your avatar and not you as a person. Clearly didn’t do it very well!
You have contributed a lot to the thread and offered a different point of view than most who are ready to burn Foster at the stake.
You quite rightly state their are lots of issues in Nz rugby and a new coach won’t fix those or necessarily did all the problems with the All Blacks.
I might be paraphrasing but You argued that because foster has lost 2 games in a row then that should be the years stuck for the new coach. Which is seriously flawed.
Foster has underwhelmed as AB coach since his first test match in charge which he was lucky to draw against an Oz side that selected its players from the teams that were routinely put to the sword by Nz super teams. But he was lucky to come out with a draw.
Unfortunately, he has dragged the ABs down to his level and we are regressing under his leadership - nothing we are doing can be considered world class at international level.
We need to take the ABs in isolation and look to fix the problems of that squad. Arguing that we should stick with the status who as we don’t know that the next guy will be better is just accepting mediocrity and not recognising that we have better talent available to lead the squad.
Taking Fozzie out of the equation should have happened by now imo. Hell, even letting the senior players run the team for a couple of weeks would probably lead to an improvement
The ABs have regressed since the 2016 EOYT. To say Fozzie hasn't had enough time to turn things around is absurd. 6 years he's been involved and the team is going backwards. 6 years of average results is more than enough to phuck this guy off.
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At this point of posting there are 1697 posts in this thread saying basically the same thing.
Take that as you wish.
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
At this point of posting there are 1697 posts in this thread saying basically the same thing.
Take that as you wish.
Venting takes time. I'd like to know how many posts there were on the 2007 RWC QF match thread....
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Could go in a few threads, basically taken what has been written elsewhere
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@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
At this point of posting there are 1697 posts in this thread saying basically the same thing.
Take that as you wish.
Venting takes time. I'd like to know how many posts there were on the 2007 RWC QF match thread....
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
At this point of posting there are 1697 posts in this thread saying basically the same thing.
Take that as you wish.
Venting takes time. I'd like to know how many posts there were on the 2007 RWC QF match thread....
I joined TSF that night, and I never left 🤯🥺
🤬 -
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
At this point of posting there are 1697 posts in this thread saying basically the same thing.
Take that as you wish.
Venting takes time. I'd like to know how many posts there were on the 2007 RWC QF match thread....
I joined TSF that night, and I never left 🤯🥺
🤬@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
At this point of posting there are 1697 posts in this thread saying basically the same thing.
Take that as you wish.
Venting takes time. I'd like to know how many posts there were on the 2007 RWC QF match thread....
I joined TSF that night, and I never left 🤯🥺
🤬just when i thought we'd exercised that demon...we find we're still suffering the consequences of that night
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At this point of posting there are 1697 posts in this thread saying basically the same thing.
Take that as you wish.
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@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
At this point of posting there are 1697 posts in this thread saying basically the same thing.
Take that as you wish.
Venting takes time. I'd like to know how many posts there were on the 2007 RWC QF match thread....
I joined TSF that night, and I never left 🤯🥺
🤬just when i thought we'd exercised that demon...we find we're still suffering the consequences of that night
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
At this point of posting there are 1697 posts in this thread saying basically the same thing.
Take that as you wish.
Venting takes time. I'd like to know how many posts there were on the 2007 RWC QF match thread....
I joined TSF that night, and I never left 🤯🥺
🤬just when i thought we'd exercised that demon...we find we're still suffering the consequences of that night
Long covid19 has got nothing on Long Cardiff07
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At this point of posting there are 1697 posts in this thread saying basically the same thing.
Take that as you wish.
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
At this point of posting there are 1697 posts in this thread saying basically the same thing.
Take that as you wish.
If we can get this up to 2500 posts we can then submit it to NZR as a petition to get rid of Foster
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Could go in a few threads, basically taken what has been written elsewhere
@Unite said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Could go in a few threads, basically taken what has been written elsewhere
Written by lightweight sports journalist Christy Doran - headline alone is clickbait for a domestic audience..
