Foster, Robertson etc
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Skipping past many much anti Foster bullshit and posting a link to a podcast I listened to today ..
https://timharford.com/2022/06/cautionary-tales-the-french-knights-guide-to-corporate-culture/
Might take a while to realise the relevance. I'll come back in the morning and if I have time will discuss further.
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
But have a listen to the definition of insanity..
V interesting
Culture, grows quickly
A bastard to get rid of
@MiketheSnow said in Foster:
Skipping past many much anti Foster bullshit and posting a link to a podcast I listened to today ..
https://timharford.com/2022/06/cautionary-tales-the-french-knights-guide-to-corporate-culture/
Might take a while to realise the relevance. I'll come back in the morning and if I have time will discuss further.
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
But have a listen to the definition of insanity..
V interesting
Culture, grows quickly
A bastard to get rid of
Absolutely spot on, And you need to understand it before you can fix it.
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I noticed the Allblacks have shoe horned in a test against Japan on October 29th at short notice before the EOYT tour starts proper.
First thing that came into my mind is they wanted to give the new coach another match to gain momentum.
I noticed the Allblacks have shoe horned in a test against Japan on October 29th at short notice before the EOYT tour starts proper.
First thing that came into my mind is they wanted to give the new coach another match to gain momentum.
The first thing that came into my mind was that there’s another first for Foster to his to his résumé
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@MiketheSnow said in Foster:
I wonder what Gatland might be quietly doing ...
Please don't.
There's one coach with a worse record at the Chiefs than Fosterand that's our mate Wazza.He does know how to get limited teams to RWC SFs though
Sorry @MiketheSnowNone taken
With all the talk of Robertson surely Gatland and Schmidt should be the next cabs off the rank?
Especially going in to a WC
Have you noticed how poorly the Chiefs have played under Gatland?
He seems to have had trouble adapting back into NZ rugby.He had no trouble coaching the best of NH to a drawn series with NZ and was within one kick of the same with SA.
Say what you want about his negative/conservative tactics; they work at test level. Strong set piece, strong defence, strong kicking game with a sprinkling of magic dust.
@MiketheSnow said in Foster:
I wonder what Gatland might be quietly doing ...
Please don't.
There's one coach with a worse record at the Chiefs than Fosterand that's our mate Wazza.He does know how to get limited teams to RWC SFs though
Sorry @MiketheSnowNone taken
With all the talk of Robertson surely Gatland and Schmidt should be the next cabs off the rank?
Especially going in to a WC
Have you noticed how poorly the Chiefs have played under Gatland?
He seems to have had trouble adapting back into NZ rugby.He had no trouble coaching the best of NH to a drawn series with NZ and was within one kick of the same with SA.
Sayw what you want about his negative/conservative tactics; they work at test level. Strong set piece, strong defence, strong kicking game with a sprinkling of magic dust.
See I would actually be happy with parts of our current game plan - which is basically let’s throw it around and rely on our individual brilliance - if it also included these things whic Gatland might emphasise. Heck it might even be a game plan that ends up being quite successful
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@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
@Victor-Meldrew already started maybe, but the problem is, I bet things have got so shite in the shop window that everyone is questioning themselves, one another, not sure which way to turn...but the boss is a top guy, so no one quite knows why things are so poor, the older guys say we haven't changed much since the last boss was here, and he had a great record.
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@Victor-Meldrew already started maybe, but the problem is, I bet things have got so shite in the shop window that everyone is questioning themselves, one another, not sure which way to turn...but the boss is a top guy, so no one quite knows why things are so poor, the older guys say we haven't changed much since the last boss was here, and he had a great record.
@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew already started maybe, but the problem is, I bet things have got so shite in the shop window that everyone is questioning themselves, one another, not sure which way to turn...but the boss is a top guy, so no one quite knows why things are so poor, the older guys say we haven't changed much since the last boss was here, and he had a great record.
Possibly what's happening, but you'd hope they're further along than that. And, while I have little experience of culture in v. high-performance teams, I'd imagine they know of the problems or have identified what needs to change, but don't have the skills, the influence with NZR or the helicopter view to make things happen. Be interesting to know if there any new faces in the Leadership group or is it the same people who've been around for a while.
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@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
I see parallels deeper than just within the team.
At the moment we're the French repeatedly charging up the hill (sticking with our style) because it's always worked, and Foster is Phillip bereft of ideas and not in control.
We've even taken a few swipes at our allies the Genovese (Aussies) on the way through.
It's our culture which has made us the most powerful force in eastern Europe (rugby) for 400 (120) years that's convinced us we just have to do what we've always done, only harder.
I think we have rebuild the culture right through the sport to rebuild our understanding of how we create the All Blacks.
The All Blacks have always organically been the best in the world because our system has always been the best in the world.
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While this analogy is useful, you have to also consider other possibilities.
What if our troops are OK, but the general put in charge has been placed there because he has good connections, and his generalship is the actual problem?
The Romans didn't get wiped out at Carrhae because they had poor culture. Instead they had an idiot at the helm (Crassus) and inappropriate methods.
Another general, some different tactics and the Romans were good to go.
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@Steve That makes no sense. They can only start 15 and have 8 reserves in each match. Not many games to trial people in lately. France Ireland and South Africa are the weakest of our opponents in the past 7 matches. Maybe NZRU could have been kinder by having matches against lesser opponents or fielding an NZ XV during that sequence. But don't think the AB fans would take kindly to playing second xvs v leading nations like SA and France do.
It's certainly something that hasn't helped. Foster is hellbent on his plan (whatever it is) and is having to try and find the right players to implements while fronting up to the top sides in the world at the moment. You can see how other coaches must have struggled for a number of years when the show was on the other foot.
If the July games were against a team like Scotland I wonder if the ABs would have gelled better. -
@Crucial if the July tests were against Scotland, instead of a first series loss to Ireland, we'd have had another first, first ever loss to the Haggis munchers!
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@Crucial if the July tests were against Scotland, instead of a first series loss to Ireland, we'd have had another first, first ever loss to the Haggis munchers!
@BartMan we have them on the EOYT, so somehow, Fozzie or someone else needs to arrest this slide...
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@BartMan we have them on the EOYT, so somehow, Fozzie or someone else needs to arrest this slide...
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
I see parallels deeper than just within the team.
At the moment we're the French repeatedly charging up the hill (sticking with our style) because it's always worked, and Foster is Phillip bereft of ideas and not in control.
We've even taken a few swipes at our allies the Genovese (Aussies) on the way through.
It's our culture which has made us the most powerful force in eastern Europe (rugby) for 400 (120) years that's convinced us we just have to do what we've always done, only harder.
I think we have rebuild the culture right through the sport to rebuild our understanding of how we create the All Blacks.
The All Blacks have always organically been the best in the world because our system has always been the best in the world.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew I'm pretty sure gets this.
Sure do. Haven't done this sort of stuff for nearly a decade and didn't want to bore people on a Rugby forum - but thanks to @booboo I now will...
One of the biggest red flags in business for me was hearing: "We changed the manager/director as things were getting bad, the new bloke got off to a good start, but now seems to have lost momentum". Big indicator it was culture not process.
There's a number of ways to survey & measure culture and It'd be fascinating to see what the AB culture looked like in 2015, 2019 and now. My wild guess would be a fall off around internal focus, accepting change and developing adaptability. If there's a trend, I wouldn't be surprised if it had it's roots around 2016 with the departure of much of the leadership group
If that's the case, it could take some time to change and will need a lot more than just changing coaching staff to put right. Being an optimist, it's possible the process has already started.
I see parallels deeper than just within the team.
At the moment we're the French repeatedly charging up the hill (sticking with our style) because it's always worked, and Foster is Phillip bereft of ideas and not in control.
We've even taken a few swipes at our allies the Genovese (Aussies) on the way through.
It's our culture which has made us the most powerful force in eastern Europe (rugby) for 400 (120) years that's convinced us we just have to do what we've always done, only harder.
I think we have rebuild the culture right through the sport to rebuild our understanding of how we create the All Blacks.
The All Blacks have always organically been the best in the world because our system has always been the best in the world.
Another analogy might be the Swiss mercenaries. Absolutely fùcking ruthless and the benchmark for an elite force back in the day. Then firearms and artillery come along and despite them bravely doing everything that made them so great they were simply overwhelmed by the world moving forward. They at least got the hint. How long until we do? I'd hate to think it would take an absolute bloody massacre, but I'm afraid it might.
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@nostrildamus said in Foster:
@mariner4life said in Foster:
@Donsteppa said in Foster:
I wonder what Gatland might be quietly doing ...
Please don't.
There's one coach with a worse record at the Chiefs than Fosterand that's our mate Wazza.Gats at the Chiefs may not have been a success, but I'd take him in a heartbeat over Foster. He knows how to win games at the top level, and gets teams up. You dno't get picked as a multi-Lions coach for nothing.
Given both his approach to the Chiefs role and his results, I'd like to see more of him back in the NZ environment first. Not a stance I'd normally take, but his Chiefs tenure left questions. While I'd also have Gatland as coach instead of Foster, thankfully it isn't a two-choice decision
i think maybe we just need to never hire a chiefs coach for the ABs ever again.
No Rennie (or Wayne Smith)??
Rennie coaches the Wallabies he is dead to me
Wayne Smith was a shit head coach. He's a Robin not a batman
@mariner4life did he really have a chance? He is the best thing that coached anything Waikato.
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@MiketheSnow said in Foster:
I wonder what Gatland might be quietly doing ...
Please don't.
There's one coach with a worse record at the Chiefs than Fosterand that's our mate Wazza.He does know how to get limited teams to RWC SFs though
Sorry @MiketheSnowNone taken
With all the talk of Robertson surely Gatland and Schmidt should be the next cabs off the rank?
Especially going in to a WC
Have you noticed how poorly the Chiefs have played under Gatland?
He seems to have had trouble adapting back into NZ rugby. -
@Crucial if the July tests were against Scotland, instead of a first series loss to Ireland, we'd have had another first, first ever loss to the Haggis munchers!
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@BartMan we have them on the EOYT, so somehow, Fozzie or someone else needs to arrest this slide...
@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@BartMan we have them on the EOYT, so somehow, Fozzie or someone else needs to arrest this slide...
Slides are journeys. Roundabouts are learnings.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@BartMan we have them on the EOYT, so somehow, Fozzie or someone else needs to arrest this slide...
Slides are journeys. Roundabouts are learnings.
From surfer to super coach: Scott Robertson's rise to rugby stardom
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/300660277/from-surfer-to-super-coach-scott-robertsons-rise-to-rugby-stardomIt is a bit early to trod on someone's well-padded bones isn't it?
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While this analogy is useful, you have to also consider other possibilities.
What if our troops are OK, but the general put in charge has been placed there because he has good connections, and his generalship is the actual problem?
The Romans didn't get wiped out at Carrhae because they had poor culture. Instead they had an idiot at the helm (Crassus) and inappropriate methods.
Another general, some different tactics and the Romans were good to go.
This post is deleted! -
While this analogy is useful, you have to also consider other possibilities.
What if our troops are OK, but the general put in charge has been placed there because he has good connections, and his generalship is the actual problem?
The Romans didn't get wiped out at Carrhae because they had poor culture. Instead they had an idiot at the helm (Crassus) and inappropriate methods.
Another general, some different tactics and the Romans were good to go.
@Chester-Draws said in Foster:
While this analogy is useful, you have to also consider other possibilities.
What if our troops are OK, but the general put in charge has been placed there because he has good connections, and his generalship is the actual problem?
The Romans didn't get wiped out at Carrhae because they had poor culture. Instead they had an idiot at the helm (Crassus) and inappropriate methods.
Another general, some different tactics and the Romans were good to go.
I think that is a bit simplistic. You have to ask, if it was all down to one general (Philip), why the French didn't regain their military supremacy when he departed the scene.
Google tells me Carrhea precipitated a civil war in Rome (a big cultural upheaval) and it took them 16-ish years to eventually win a major battle against the Parthians so a few more changes other than tactics and leaders.
Same with Foster. There's a risk thinking he is the root cause of the problems when what needs to be fixed is maybe much deeper
