All Blacks vs Wales
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
So much faith here in Jordie B at 12 based on 1 good game. I hope it’s not misplaced
One game at test level, but the faith is based on his previous experience playing there at NPC and Super level. And more importantly, the physical attributes and skillset he can bring to the position, we just don't have another player that compares at the moment.
Yawn. This discussion has been done to death.
The one game statements are valid in that he has played one start at 12 in a test (against average opponents)
The past knowledge is pretty old at NPC and pretty average at Super.
I think everyone agrees that he has potential to claim the job but the annointing as saviour based on one performance is at odds to how others get judged. We’ve all seen one good performance players come and go. Even DH has played good games at 12.
Give it time. The air of desperation to be proven right for years of harping is high.
Still think Ardie would be better.@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
So much faith here in Jordie B at 12 based on 1 good game. I hope it’s not misplaced
One game at test level, but the faith is based on his previous experience playing there at NPC and Super level. And more importantly, the physical attributes and skillset he can bring to the position, we just don't have another player that compares at the moment.
Yawn. This discussion has been done to death.
Um, this is the Fern. Where middle aged men go to repeat themselves over and over again.
-
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Chris-B I’d say Sevu is close to 100. Jordan is quite a bit taller than Sevu but if you’ve seen the footage of these two in the gym Sevu is no shrinking violet.
The thing with Sevu is the low centre of gravity plus the power that makes him challenging for defenders to get to the ground in the tackle.
Exactly. Sometimes I wonder if the others even follow rugby, Sevu is absolutely jacked.
He's basically the Fijian version of Laumape, his dimensions are very similar.
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Chris-B I’d say Sevu is close to 100. Jordan is quite a bit taller than Sevu but if you’ve seen the footage of these two in the gym Sevu is no shrinking violet.
The thing with Sevu is the low centre of gravity plus the power that makes him challenging for defenders to get to the ground in the tackle.
Exactly. Sometimes I wonder if the others even follow rugby, Sevu is absolutely jacked.
He's basically the Fijian version of Laumape, his dimensions are very similar.
Well, here's a test of relativities for you.
According to Steve Hansen Scott Barrett was initially a bit light as a test lock but they were hoping to eventually get him to 120kgs - which I reckon they have.
If Sevu is 99kgs (according to you) then this is what a 21kg weight difference looks like.
If Sevu is low-90s (according to me) this is what a nearly 30kg weight difference looks like. (Note that Sevu is closer to the camera, so it's favouring his size).
If you are right - you should be able to find a similar sort of photo where Sevu is similarly dwarfing the likes Richie Mo'unga (82kgs according to the internet) or Aaron Smith (83kgs) - because they're going to be 16-17kgs lighter than him.
If I'm right, then those guys are only a max of 10kgs smaller than Sevu - and to find a similarly dwarfing photo (30kgs smaller than Sevu) - you're down to George Bennett (the cyclist) at 60kgs!
Here's a starter with Smith....
-
Posting here too, because I am feeling some optimism:
The team that played against Australia at Eden Park seemed like a step up in many ways, especially defence. How about we try that combination again, particularly when our performances have been so up and down.
-
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Chris-B I’d say Sevu is close to 100. Jordan is quite a bit taller than Sevu but if you’ve seen the footage of these two in the gym Sevu is no shrinking violet.
The thing with Sevu is the low centre of gravity plus the power that makes him challenging for defenders to get to the ground in the tackle.
Exactly. Sometimes I wonder if the others even follow rugby, Sevu is absolutely jacked.
He's basically the Fijian version of Laumape, his dimensions are very similar.
Well, here's a test of relativities for you.
According to Steve Hansen Scott Barrett was initially a bit light as a test lock but they were hoping to eventually get him to 120kgs - which I reckon they have.
If Sevu is 99kgs (according to you) then this is what a 21kg weight difference looks like.
If Sevu is low-90s (according to me) this is what a nearly 30kg weight difference looks like. (Note that Sevu is closer to the camera, so it's favouring his size).
If you are right - you should be able to find a similar sort of photo where Sevu is similarly dwarfing the likes Richie Mo'unga (82kgs according to the internet) or Aaron Smith (83kgs) - because they're going to be 16-17kgs lighter than him.
If I'm right, then those guys are only a max of 10kgs smaller than Sevu - and to find a similarly dwarfing photo (30kgs smaller than Sevu) - you're down to George Bennett (the cyclist) at 60kgs!
Here's a starter with Smith....
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Chris-B I’d say Sevu is close to 100. Jordan is quite a bit taller than Sevu but if you’ve seen the footage of these two in the gym Sevu is no shrinking violet.
The thing with Sevu is the low centre of gravity plus the power that makes him challenging for defenders to get to the ground in the tackle.
Exactly. Sometimes I wonder if the others even follow rugby, Sevu is absolutely jacked.
He's basically the Fijian version of Laumape, his dimensions are very similar.
Well, here's a test of relativities for you.
According to Steve Hansen Scott Barrett was initially a bit light as a test lock but they were hoping to eventually get him to 120kgs - which I reckon they have.
If Sevu is 99kgs (according to you) then this is what a 21kg weight difference looks like.
If Sevu is low-90s (according to me) this is what a nearly 30kg weight difference looks like. (Note that Sevu is closer to the camera, so it's favouring his size).
If you are right - you should be able to find a similar sort of photo where Sevu is similarly dwarfing the likes Richie Mo'unga (82kgs according to the internet) or Aaron Smith (83kgs) - because they're going to be 16-17kgs lighter than him.
If I'm right, then those guys are only a max of 10kgs smaller than Sevu - and to find a similarly dwarfing photo (30kgs smaller than Sevu) - you're down to George Bennett (the cyclist) at 60kgs!
Here's a starter with Smith....
I think Reece would have a very high power to weight ratio but yeah, I’d doubt he’s close to 100 kegs. He’s still a relative midget.
-
Generous odds to Wales, might be worth a punt.
https://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/internationals/wales-v-new-zealand/winner
With the All Blacks in disarray for much of this year, with a passive Head Coach and an injury crisis and jetlag, what better chance will Wales ever get to end their 69-year wait for another win over the ABs?
-
@No-Quarter Yeah - I don't think it's very close between Will and Sevu and last Saturday's game didn't change my view.
If Sevu makes the starting XV at RWC I think it will be on the other wing, where Clarke is currently a bit one (well two) dimensional. He is good under the high ball and breaks tackles. But he gets lost on defense too often (though our defensive system isn't designed to make our wings look good) and struggles to find his support on attack. That attacking power is a point of difference, though.
After RWC I'm keen to see Will transition to fullback and Jordie to 2nd five. I've got more sympathy for the idea of keeping Jordie at fullback in this cycle. Wouldn't mind seeing ALB tried at 2nd five, but last week's game suggests he's earmarked as a centre.
All going well, I particularly wouldn't mind us finishing this week's game with 11. Rieko, 12. Jordie, 13. ALB, 14. Sevu, 15. Beaudy.
I will incur the wrath of the Mariner though!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wales:
He is good under the high ball and breaks tackles. But he gets lost on defense too often (though our defensive system isn't designed to make our wings look good) and struggles to find his support on attack.
I mean, I'm sure you've not got an ounce of bias, but you've just described Jordan.
My biggest gripe with Clarke is....fuck man, stop falling over! Make more people tackle you instead of changing angles and falling over before/in the tackle.
-
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wales:
He is good under the high ball and breaks tackles. But he gets lost on defense too often (though our defensive system isn't designed to make our wings look good) and struggles to find his support on attack.
I mean, I'm sure you've not got an ounce of bias, but you've just described Jordan.
My biggest gripe with Clarke is....fuck man, stop falling over! Make more people tackle you instead of changing angles and falling over before/in the tackle.
@Bones Nah, Jordan is good at setting up people. His positional play is very good and he finds his support on attack. What are his assist stats?
All the wings in the ABs are struggling with defense at the moment though. -
@Bones Nah, Jordan is good at setting up people. His positional play is very good and he finds his support on attack. What are his assist stats?
All the wings in the ABs are struggling with defense at the moment though.@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Bones Nah, Jordan is good at setting up people. His positional play is very good and he finds his support on attack. What are his assist stats?
All the wings in the ABs are struggling with defense at the moment though.Most of the team is struggling with D (Scott McLeod shuffles nervously)
-
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Bones Nah, Jordan is good at setting up people. His positional play is very good and he finds his support on attack. What are his assist stats?
All the wings in the ABs are struggling with defense at the moment though.Most of the team is struggling with D (Scott McLeod shuffles nervously)
-
@Bones Nah, Jordan is good at setting up people. His positional play is very good and he finds his support on attack. What are his assist stats?
All the wings in the ABs are struggling with defense at the moment though.@Old-Samurai-Jack I can only remember the one where instead of passing to Jordie in space he went himself and managed to get an offload away.
To be fair I'm probably thinking more of last year, where Jordan couldn't find his team mates to save himself. So maybe he's improved this year, but yeah stats would tell the better story. I don't see him as better than Clarke though.
-
Generous odds to Wales, might be worth a punt.
https://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/internationals/wales-v-new-zealand/winner
With the All Blacks in disarray for much of this year, with a passive Head Coach and an injury crisis and jetlag, what better chance will Wales ever get to end their 69-year wait for another win over the ABs?
@sparky said in All Blacks vs Wales:
Generous odds to Wales, might be worth a punt.
https://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/internationals/wales-v-new-zealand/winner
With the All Blacks in disarray for much of this year, with a passive Head Coach and an injury crisis and jetlag, what better chance will Wales ever get to end their 69-year wait for another win over the ABs?
I'll spend my stake on steak & wine
If we'd played you around the time of the Summer tours and Rugby Championship then I would have gotten a ticket in the hope that I could say 'I was there'
But since then, your mob has been slowly building and remaining Test Match fit whilst most of the Welsh players have floundered at club level in the URC
Shining light has been Louis Rees Zammit who's been tearing it up for Gloucester in the Premisership
Whether he'll get any ball and space on Saturday is very much open to question
We'll be competitive in the first half but most probably lose concentration just before half-time and let in a soft score
We'll start the second half slowly, possibly conceding again, then rally between 50 and 70 to make it interesting
Then your mob will pull away in the last 10 to win by 14-17
I've seen this show before
-
@Old-Samurai-Jack I can only remember the one where instead of passing to Jordie in space he went himself and managed to get an offload away.
To be fair I'm probably thinking more of last year, where Jordan couldn't find his team mates to save himself. So maybe he's improved this year, but yeah stats would tell the better story. I don't see him as better than Clarke though.
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Old-Samurai-Jack I can only remember the one where instead of passing to Jordie in space he went himself and managed to get an offload away.
To be fair I'm probably thinking more of last year, where Jordan couldn't find his team mates to save himself. So maybe he's improved this year, but yeah stats would tell the better story. I don't see him as better than Clarke though.
I don't think it is close.
I pointed it out earlier this year where Caleb's stats across two of the latter tests (maybe Arg II and Oz I) were something like 20 runs and 1 pass. The 1 pass is exact.
Saturday vs Japan was 13 runs and 1 pass, which I think got deflected.
-
@Old-Samurai-Jack I can only remember the one where instead of passing to Jordie in space he went himself and managed to get an offload away.
To be fair I'm probably thinking more of last year, where Jordan couldn't find his team mates to save himself. So maybe he's improved this year, but yeah stats would tell the better story. I don't see him as better than Clarke though.
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Old-Samurai-Jack I can only remember the one where instead of passing to Jordie in space he went himself and managed to get an offload away.
It was a winning offload - and what Will probably also knew was that we had a penalty advantage.
-
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wales:
He is good under the high ball and breaks tackles. But he gets lost on defense too often (though our defensive system isn't designed to make our wings look good) and struggles to find his support on attack.
I mean, I'm sure you've not got an ounce of bias, but you've just described Jordan.
My biggest gripe with Clarke is....fuck man, stop falling over! Make more people tackle you instead of changing angles and falling over before/in the tackle.
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wales:
He is good under the high ball and breaks tackles. But he gets lost on defense too often (though our defensive system isn't designed to make our wings look good) and struggles to find his support on attack.
I mean, I'm sure you've not got an ounce of bias, but you've just described Jordan.
My biggest gripe with Clarke is....fuck man, stop falling over! Make more people tackle you instead of changing angles and falling over before/in the tackle.
My gripe with Clarke is that his ability to break the tackle makes him too hard to drop. But if he doesn’t break the tackle he’s 50:50 to lose possession by getting isolated, dropping the ball or, as you say, tripping over. He’s a high risk/ high reward player. So we might as well keep him because we’ve got bugger all better if we keep wanting to play RIoane on the centres.
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
So much faith here in Jordie B at 12 based on 1 good game. I hope it’s not misplaced
One game at test level, but the faith is based on his previous experience playing there at NPC and Super level. And more importantly, the physical attributes and skillset he can bring to the position, we just don't have another player that compares at the moment.
But he’ll be using those attributes against midfielders who have specialised in those positions, and not just at lower levels. Most of them are pretty big units themselves, if not as tall. Farrell and Watkin are of a similar weight and Tuilagi isn’t going to be phased by Jordie’s size. He won’t be able to dominate like he did against Aus I suspect,
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
So much faith here in Jordie B at 12 based on 1 good game. I hope it’s not misplaced
One game at test level, but the faith is based on his previous experience playing there at NPC and Super level. And more importantly, the physical attributes and skillset he can bring to the position, we just don't have another player that compares at the moment.
But he’ll be using those attributes against midfielders who have specialised in those positions, and not just at lower levels. Most of them are pretty big units themselves, if not as tall. Farrell and Watkin are of a similar weight and Tuilagi isn’t going to be phased by Jordie’s size. He won’t be able to dominate like he did against Aus I suspect,
Yeah he won't be as effective as he was against the Wallabies, but fuck having Havili face those big midfielders! Put it this way, Havili paired with Mo'unga makes me very nervous against the top sides. Put Jordie in there to at least match their physicality and we look a damn sight stronger already.
-
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
So much faith here in Jordie B at 12 based on 1 good game. I hope it’s not misplaced
One game at test level, but the faith is based on his previous experience playing there at NPC and Super level. And more importantly, the physical attributes and skillset he can bring to the position, we just don't have another player that compares at the moment.
Yawn. This discussion has been done to death.
Um, this is the Fern. Where middle aged men go to repeat themselves over and over again.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
So much faith here in Jordie B at 12 based on 1 good game. I hope it’s not misplaced
One game at test level, but the faith is based on his previous experience playing there at NPC and Super level. And more importantly, the physical attributes and skillset he can bring to the position, we just don't have another player that compares at the moment.
Yawn. This discussion has been done to death.
Um, this is the Fern. Where middle aged men go to repeat themselves over and over again.
Particularly funny coming from the bloke who has made the same post about DMac about 3x per week
-
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Old-Samurai-Jack I can only remember the one where instead of passing to Jordie in space he went himself and managed to get an offload away.
To be fair I'm probably thinking more of last year, where Jordan couldn't find his team mates to save himself. So maybe he's improved this year, but yeah stats would tell the better story. I don't see him as better than Clarke though.
I don't think it is close.
I pointed it out earlier this year where Caleb's stats across two of the latter tests (maybe Arg II and Oz I) were something like 20 runs and 1 pass. The 1 pass is exact.
Saturday vs Japan was 13 runs and 1 pass, which I think got deflected.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Old-Samurai-Jack I can only remember the one where instead of passing to Jordie in space he went himself and managed to get an offload away.
To be fair I'm probably thinking more of last year, where Jordan couldn't find his team mates to save himself. So maybe he's improved this year, but yeah stats would tell the better story. I don't see him as better than Clarke though.
I don't think it is close.
I pointed it out earlier this year where Caleb's stats across two of the latter tests (maybe Arg II and Oz I) were something like 20 runs and 1 pass. The 1 pass is exact.
Saturday vs Japan was 13 runs and 1 pass, which I think got deflected.
That's 2 more passes than I'd expect from a winger.
-
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
So much faith here in Jordie B at 12 based on 1 good game. I hope it’s not misplaced
One game at test level, but the faith is based on his previous experience playing there at NPC and Super level. And more importantly, the physical attributes and skillset he can bring to the position, we just don't have another player that compares at the moment.
But he’ll be using those attributes against midfielders who have specialised in those positions, and not just at lower levels. Most of them are pretty big units themselves, if not as tall. Farrell and Watkin are of a similar weight and Tuilagi isn’t going to be phased by Jordie’s size. He won’t be able to dominate like he did against Aus I suspect,
Yeah he won't be as effective as he was against the Wallabies, but fuck having Havili face those big midfielders! Put it this way, Havili paired with Mo'unga makes me very nervous against the top sides. Put Jordie in there to at least match their physicality and we look a damn sight stronger already.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
So much faith here in Jordie B at 12 based on 1 good game. I hope it’s not misplaced
One game at test level, but the faith is based on his previous experience playing there at NPC and Super level. And more importantly, the physical attributes and skillset he can bring to the position, we just don't have another player that compares at the moment.
But he’ll be using those attributes against midfielders who have specialised in those positions, and not just at lower levels. Most of them are pretty big units themselves, if not as tall. Farrell and Watkin are of a similar weight and Tuilagi isn’t going to be phased by Jordie’s size. He won’t be able to dominate like he did against Aus I suspect,
Yeah he won't be as effective as he was against the Wallabies, but fuck having Havili face those big midfielders! Put it this way, Havili paired with Mo'unga makes me very nervous against the top sides. Put Jordie in there to at least match their physicality and we look a damn sight stronger already.
Oh no question, he’s got more upside than Havili. I just get wary of the vibe that after one admittedly very solid test the country let their collective breath out and started talking like the dysfunctional centre pairings we’ve been using since Conrad and Ma’a left are instantly resolved.
IMO we’ve still got some big issues there. They’re as poorly coached as the rest of the backs, they are short of a run, their defensive structures are fragile and slow to react and as a unit they haven’t been tested under pressure by a top 3 side. What we definitely gain with Jordie is distribution and a coherent five-eighths unit with an actual tactical kicking threat. If we play another game this year with only Richie’s Tokyo kicking game we’re going to get our arses handed to us.
So yeah, play him. But temper our expectations.
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
So much faith here in Jordie B at 12 based on 1 good game. I hope it’s not misplaced
One game at test level, but the faith is based on his previous experience playing there at NPC and Super level. And more importantly, the physical attributes and skillset he can bring to the position, we just don't have another player that compares at the moment.
But he’ll be using those attributes against midfielders who have specialised in those positions, and not just at lower levels. Most of them are pretty big units themselves, if not as tall. Farrell and Watkin are of a similar weight and Tuilagi isn’t going to be phased by Jordie’s size. He won’t be able to dominate like he did against Aus I suspect,
Yeah he won't be as effective as he was against the Wallabies, but fuck having Havili face those big midfielders! Put it this way, Havili paired with Mo'unga makes me very nervous against the top sides. Put Jordie in there to at least match their physicality and we look a damn sight stronger already.
Oh no question, he’s got more upside than Havili. I just get wary of the vibe that after one admittedly very solid test the country let their collective breath out and started talking like the dysfunctional centre pairings we’ve been using since Conrad and Ma’a left are instantly resolved.
IMO we’ve still got some big issues there. They’re as poorly coached as the rest of the backs, they are short of a run, their defensive structures are fragile and slow to react and as a unit they haven’t been tested under pressure by a top 3 side. What we definitely gain with Jordie is distribution and a coherent five-eighths unit with an actual tactical kicking threat. If we play another game this year with only Richie’s Tokyo kicking game we’re going to get our arses handed to us.
So yeah, play him. But temper our expectations.
@JC said in All Blacks vs Wales:
But temper our expectations.
Yeah sure. But people keep bringing up that it was only Australia. Because we've seen so many 12s in the past half a dozen years absolutely boss Australia? Is that it? Or we have a number of 12s that have dominated any other team?
It was a performance for the ages, an eye opening one where we've got used to seeing someone having a decently solid performance and being excited about that. Why shouldn't we be hopeful and optimistic?
No other 12 has come close to that performance, I don't care who against. I get it, there's a handful of guys who might finally be right with their broken record drivel about Jordie at 12 and that should not be allowed to happen, but alas they might just be right.
-
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wales:
In regard to the team in the OP:
-
Pretty sure Retallick will be out and Barrett to 4. Probably Vaa'i on the bench, but maybe Big Patty.
-
Pretty likely to see Frizell at 6 and Akira on the bench.
-
I reckon Jordan being out makes it less likely they'll try Jordie at 12 for this one. I won't be surprised to see Havili at 12 and Beaudy on the bench.
If Jordie doesn't start at 12 the meltdown on here is going to be fucking epic
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Wales:
In regard to the team in the OP:
-
Pretty sure Retallick will be out and Barrett to 4. Probably Vaa'i on the bench, but maybe Big Patty.
-
Pretty likely to see Frizell at 6 and Akira on the bench.
-
I reckon Jordan being out makes it less likely they'll try Jordie at 12 for this one. I won't be surprised to see Havili at 12 and Beaudy on the bench.
If Jordie doesn't start at 12 the meltdown on here is going to be fucking epic
Too right it will be.
-
