Foster, Robertson etc
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@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
Yep think it could be called ego to taniwha! Why I suspect maybe we wouldn't get a Joseph/Razor combo either, not sure who would be prepared to be assistant.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
Yep think it could be called ego to taniwha! Why I suspect maybe we wouldn't get a Joseph/Razor combo either, not sure who would be prepared to be assistant.
@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
Yep think it could be called ego to taniwha! Why I suspect maybe we wouldn't get a Joseph/Razor combo either, not sure who would be prepared to be assistant.
And trust me being a coach professionally you need a big ego.
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@MiketheSnow why does Llanelli bang on about this like the All Blacks had never lost a midweek fixture before?
That 72 tour was a pretty average team.
@antipodean said in Foster:
@MiketheSnow why does Llanelli bang on about this like the All Blacks had never lost a midweek fixture before?
That 72 tour was a pretty average team.
Because our national team couldn’t do it in our heyday with all our stars
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Ngani would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
Wow. Imagine how good Charlie Ngatai would have been under this saviour!
What is it that people see as Razor's best attribute? Is it the water to wine thing or the water walking?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
What is it that people see as Razor's best attribute? Is it the water to wine thing or the water walking?
His ability to get many of his supporters use overblown hyperbole when discussing him?
Well he has turned a number of players into ABs despite a lack of talent and it has been taking a while for those that count to notice.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
Yep think it could be called ego to taniwha! Why I suspect maybe we wouldn't get a Joseph/Razor combo either, not sure who would be prepared to be assistant.
And trust me being a coach professionally you need a big ego.
@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
Yep think it could be called ego to taniwha! Why I suspect maybe we wouldn't get a Joseph/Razor combo either, not sure who would be prepared to be assistant.
And trust me being a coach professionally you need a big ego.
If you don't have a big one, like Rennie, you'll bring in a guy like Smith and then you'll have numpties on a forum attributing your success to him for years afterwards.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
Yep think it could be called ego to taniwha! Why I suspect maybe we wouldn't get a Joseph/Razor combo either, not sure who would be prepared to be assistant.
And trust me being a coach professionally you need a big ego.
If you don't have a big one, like Rennie, you'll bring in a guy like Smith and then you'll have numpties on a forum attributing your success to him for years afterwards.
@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
Yep think it could be called ego to taniwha! Why I suspect maybe we wouldn't get a Joseph/Razor combo either, not sure who would be prepared to be assistant.
And trust me being a coach professionally you need a big ego.
If you don't have a big one, like Rennie, you'll bring in a guy like Smith and then you'll have numpties on a forum attributing your success to him for years afterwards.
More about needing a big ego to deal with players outside influences and Nuffies( the Aussie term)
Than being smart enough to get the right team around you . -
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
@KiwiMurph said in Foster:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
Laumape had all the skills - strong, quick, could kick and pass, purely from a physical attributes POV he's the closest we've had to Nonu. What he lacked was the top two inches, just never had the vision to be successful at the top level so was pretty easily shut down. Fantastic at Super level though.
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@KiwiMurph said in Foster:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
Laumape had all the skills - strong, quick, could kick and pass, purely from a physical attributes POV he's the closest we've had to Nonu. What he lacked was the top two inches, just never had the vision to be successful at the top level so was pretty easily shut down. Fantastic at Super level though.
@No-Quarter said in Foster:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
Laumape had all the skills - strong, quick, could kick and pass, purely from a physical attributes POV he's the closest we've had to Nonu. What he lacked was the top two inches, just never had the vision to be successful at the top level so was pretty easily shut down. Fantastic at Super level though.
This is an often underappreciated (simply not understood) aspect of great coaches
Knowing where a player's ability ceiling is
How many times have we seen club / provincial superstars not cut it at Test level
And conversely solid club / provincial players who've flourished at Test level (often because they can concentrate just on their own game)
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
Absolutely. Unlike Foster who continually buggers up world-class players like George Bridge
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
Yep think it could be called ego to taniwha! Why I suspect maybe we wouldn't get a Joseph/Razor combo either, not sure who would be prepared to be assistant.
And trust me being a coach professionally you need a big ego.
If you don't have a big one, like Rennie, you'll bring in a guy like Smith and then you'll have numpties on a forum attributing your success to him for years afterwards.
@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
Yep think it could be called ego to taniwha! Why I suspect maybe we wouldn't get a Joseph/Razor combo either, not sure who would be prepared to be assistant.
And trust me being a coach professionally you need a big ego.
If you don't have a big one, like Rennie, you'll bring in a guy like Smith and then you'll have numpties on a forum attributing your success to him for years afterwards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Rennie#Wallabies
38% record from 30 test matches!
Rennie had pretty limited success without W.Smith at the Chiefs, he then underachieved considerably with a very strong Glasgow squad that he inherited from Toonie, which had been dominating in the years prior, and had won the Pro14 that previous season.
It isn't a niche view that Wayne Smith was the key influence towards the Chiefs 2 titles, he was the team's Strategist and game-planner, oversaw the attack, hands on with his other pet area of defense/counter-attack, his fingerprints were everywhere, it was patently obvious to see.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
Yep think it could be called ego to taniwha! Why I suspect maybe we wouldn't get a Joseph/Razor combo either, not sure who would be prepared to be assistant.
And trust me being a coach professionally you need a big ego.
If you don't have a big one, like Rennie, you'll bring in a guy like Smith and then you'll have numpties on a forum attributing your success to him for years afterwards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Rennie#Wallabies
38% record from 30 test matches!
Rennie had pretty limited success without W.Smith at the Chiefs, he then underachieved considerably with a very strong Glasgow squad that he inherited from Toonie, which had been dominating in the years prior, and had won the Pro14 that previous season.
It isn't a niche view that Wayne Smith was the key influence towards the Chiefs 2 titles, he was the team's Strategist and game-planner, oversaw the attack, hands on with his other pet area of defense/counter-attack, his fingerprints were everywhere, it was patently obvious to see.
@kiwi_expat Yep, and you just have to read how hard Hansen worked to get him to comeback for 2015 WC, says in the end Smith's wife asked Hansen's missus to just let him go after 15! Interesting that Foster says he got Schmodt's missus to give him the fianl push to make himself available, as they were pretty good mates etc.. Hansen also says in his book that NZR tried for Schmidt after 19 WC, but he just needed a break as he was struggling mentally a bit.
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@Dan54 I think the prep in in terms of managing player load, game plans for players, specific to opposition and tactics, exploiting weaknesses, I mean the Super Rugby final was case in point...but the key part to this all, is getting them to execute the plan, and this is where Foster seems to come unstuck...which is where maybe if Razor had been willing to work under Foster, at least initially, maybe Fosters vision (cos he clearly must have something he is wanting to achieve) with Razors prep and planning would have been something special, but I can understand why Razor didnt want this, as he certainly seems to march to his own beat.
@taniwharugby Robertson might be good at managing workload to suit the Crusaders but there has been plenty of criticism that he has flogged players (SW is the oft quoted example) to the detriment of the AB's i.e. nothing left in the tank by the time the international season rolls round.
Now looking after the AB's isn't his (current) gig but it is another factor an international coach has to cope with that a Super rugby one doesn't.
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@taniwharugby Robertson might be good at managing workload to suit the Crusaders but there has been plenty of criticism that he has flogged players (SW is the oft quoted example) to the detriment of the AB's i.e. nothing left in the tank by the time the international season rolls round.
Now looking after the AB's isn't his (current) gig but it is another factor an international coach has to cope with that a Super rugby one doesn't.
@taniwharugby Robertson might be good at managing workload to suit the Crusaders but there has been plenty of criticism that he has flogged players (SW is the oft quoted example) to the detriment of the AB's i.e. nothing left in the tank by the time the international season rolls round.
Now looking after the AB's isn't his (current) gig but it is another factor an international coach has to cope with that a Super rugby one doesn't.
Player workloads are an inexact science. The NZRU set strict limits on how many minutes All Blacks can play during the super season and all Robertson has to do is to abide by those limits. Which he does.
It's absurd to suggest Razor should be able to tell in March or April or something, forsee six months into the future, and know that one of his players might be not be performing at an optimal level in November.
If players are getting "flogged" (which honestly they're not) then it's clearly up to the NZRU, or the ABs, or Nic Gill or whoever to reevaluate those limits. It's not on Robertson to go above and beyond for a team that he's not even directly accountable for.
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@KiwiMurph said in Foster:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
Laumape had all the skills - strong, quick, could kick and pass, purely from a physical attributes POV he's the closest we've had to Nonu. What he lacked was the top two inches, just never had the vision to be successful at the top level so was pretty easily shut down. Fantastic at Super level though.
@No-Quarter said in Foster:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
Laumape had all the skills - strong, quick, could kick and pass, purely from a physical attributes POV he's the closest we've had to Nonu. What he lacked was the top two inches, just never had the vision to be successful at the top level so was pretty easily shut down. Fantastic at Super level though.
Was he that big or powerful though? Certainly not at test level. I can't recall him bending the line like Nonu used to. In fact Jordie looked far more physical and powerful against Australia than Laumape ever did in the black jersey.
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@No-Quarter said in Foster:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
Laumape had all the skills - strong, quick, could kick and pass, purely from a physical attributes POV he's the closest we've had to Nonu. What he lacked was the top two inches, just never had the vision to be successful at the top level so was pretty easily shut down. Fantastic at Super level though.
Was he that big or powerful though? Certainly not at test level. I can't recall him bending the line like Nonu used to. In fact Jordie looked far more physical and powerful against Australia than Laumape ever did in the black jersey.
@No-Quarter said in Foster:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
Laumape had all the skills - strong, quick, could kick and pass, purely from a physical attributes POV he's the closest we've had to Nonu. What he lacked was the top two inches, just never had the vision to be successful at the top level so was pretty easily shut down. Fantastic at Super level though.
Was he that big or powerful though? Certainly not at test level. I can't recall him bending the line like Nonu used to. In fact Jordie looked far more physical and powerful against Australia than Laumape ever did in the black jersey.
Laumape's neither as bad as his detractors make out nor nearly as good as his supporters claim. He's an absolute nugget of a man and would be a nightmare to defend against, but he seemed to be fairly effectively shut down at test level. He's certainly no Nonu.
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@KiwiMurph said in Foster:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
Laumape had all the skills - strong, quick, could kick and pass, purely from a physical attributes POV he's the closest we've had to Nonu. What he lacked was the top two inches, just never had the vision to be successful at the top level so was pretty easily shut down. Fantastic at Super level though.
@No-Quarter said in Foster:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
Laumape had all the skills - strong, quick, could kick and pass, purely from a physical attributes POV he's the closest we've had to Nonu. What he lacked was the top two inches, just never had the vision to be successful at the top level so was pretty easily shut down. Fantastic at Super level though.
Na that would be George Moala ( going back a few more years )
He was a taller Nonu basically with every bit of the brick shithouseness.
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@No-Quarter said in Foster:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
Laumape had all the skills - strong, quick, could kick and pass, purely from a physical attributes POV he's the closest we've had to Nonu. What he lacked was the top two inches, just never had the vision to be successful at the top level so was pretty easily shut down. Fantastic at Super level though.
Was he that big or powerful though? Certainly not at test level. I can't recall him bending the line like Nonu used to. In fact Jordie looked far more physical and powerful against Australia than Laumape ever did in the black jersey.
@No-Quarter said in Foster:
@KiwiMurph said in Foster:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wales:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wales:
the cupboard is very bare at 12
I still reckon that a well coached Laumape could have been a bloody good 12 at Test level. Just never got his head right at that level I don't think.
Laumape would've fulfilled his potential under Razor, he would've extracted the best out of him for All Blacks.
I call bullshit.
Laumape's game didn't translate to test footy.
Laumape had all the skills - strong, quick, could kick and pass, purely from a physical attributes POV he's the closest we've had to Nonu. What he lacked was the top two inches, just never had the vision to be successful at the top level so was pretty easily shut down. Fantastic at Super level though.
Was he that big or powerful though? Certainly not at test level. I can't recall him bending the line like Nonu used to. In fact Jordie looked far more physical and powerful against Australia than Laumape ever did in the black jersey.
Yeah he's one of those players that looked big and powerful at Super level but then was shut down pretty easily at test level. I think it shows you need more than just power to be successful the next level up. All of my 'wrecking ball' memories of him are in a Canes jumper really.
Even with Nonu, he would just waltz through players at Super level, but had to be a lot smarter at test level knowing when to pick his moments, which is why it took him a while to find his feet. In the end he just had such amazing vision to go with his physical attributes.
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I think Nonu gets unfairly labelled as a bash and crash merchant but people forget he had wonderful footwork and vision in his running - that was evident right from when he burst on the scene playing wing for Canes in 03 (and obviously this got better and better and more refined as his career went on - especially from 08 onwards).
