All Blacks vs Scotland
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@MajorRage Agree re forwards but our set piece lost us quite a bit of territory and possession today which needs to be improved.
Against a fired up decent Scotland pack, I think they did ok.
Scotland at home isn't what it used to be. It's a real challenge now.
@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Scotland at home isn't what it used to be. It's a real challenge now.
Give the All Blacks a Challenge
Argentina
England
France
Ireland
Japan
Scotland
South AfricaDon't Give the All Blacks a Challenge
Australia
Wales
Yemen -
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
Here’s a couple of stats that may come as a surprise:
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Nonu started at 2nd 5 with nine different centres.
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Conrad started at centre with ten different 2nd 5s.
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Between 2005 and 2015 there were 45 tests that neither of them featured in the starting midfield.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
Here’s a couple of stats that may come as a surprise:
-
Nonu started at 2nd 5 with nine different centres.
-
Conrad started at centre with ten different 2nd 5s.
-
Between 2005 and 2015 there were 45 tests that neither of them featured in the starting midfield.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
Here’s a couple of stats that may come as a surprise:
-
Nonu started at 2nd 5 with nine different centres.
-
Conrad started at centre with ten different 2nd 5s.
-
Between 2005 and 2015 there were 45 tests that neither of them featured in the starting midfield.
nerd
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Reece Telea and Jordan at FB would be handy. BB off the bench.
One of Fosters faults over the last 3 years has been blind loyalty to some players not performing.
Need to reward form
Against England
BB 15
6 SF or SB if Retallick starts
Telea starts
Reece startsBeaudy doesn’t deserve to play fullback either.
Doesn’t score anymore, doesn’t have a long punt.
@Steve said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Reece Telea and Jordan at FB would be handy. BB off the bench.
One of Fosters faults over the last 3 years has been blind loyalty to some players not performing.
Need to reward form
Against England
BB 15
6 SF or SB if Retallick starts
Telea starts
Reece startsBeaudy doesn’t deserve to play fullback either.
Doesn’t score anymore, doesn’t have a long punt.
I am not quite ready to throw him out to pasture just yet, but I admit that thought has crossed my mind too.
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BB is still pretty good at 15.
Wish he would stick to the basics. I don't care for the cross kick. -
@Steve said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Reece Telea and Jordan at FB would be handy. BB off the bench.
One of Fosters faults over the last 3 years has been blind loyalty to some players not performing.
Need to reward form
Against England
BB 15
6 SF or SB if Retallick starts
Telea starts
Reece startsBeaudy doesn’t deserve to play fullback either.
Doesn’t score anymore, doesn’t have a long punt.
I am not quite ready to throw him out to pasture just yet, but I admit that thought has crossed my mind too.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Steve said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Reece Telea and Jordan at FB would be handy. BB off the bench.
One of Fosters faults over the last 3 years has been blind loyalty to some players not performing.
Need to reward form
Against England
BB 15
6 SF or SB if Retallick starts
Telea starts
Reece startsBeaudy doesn’t deserve to play fullback either.
Doesn’t score anymore, doesn’t have a long punt.
I am not quite ready to throw him out to pasture just yet, but I admit that thought has crossed my mind too.
me either, definitely a squad member
But he's an adequate fullback and a diabolical 10.
It's sort of interesting how quietly, as the year has progressed, our back 3 have actually become the teams most pressing issue, when at the start it would have been assumed they were our strength
Jordan isn't on tour, but has struggled as much as he has excelled this year
Clarke has a few glaring issues to work on
Reece is so busy, but has errors in his game as well
JBarret has gone to 12, but at fullback he's slow and not exactly an open field threat. His kicking game isn't top notch either
BBarrett is filling in, and looks it. Not 100% under the high ball, struggles to kick more than 25 metres.None of them are bad options by any stretch of the imagination, but not a single one is an out and out star absolutely demanding selection either (Jordan has the highest ceiling though)
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Steve said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Reece Telea and Jordan at FB would be handy. BB off the bench.
One of Fosters faults over the last 3 years has been blind loyalty to some players not performing.
Need to reward form
Against England
BB 15
6 SF or SB if Retallick starts
Telea starts
Reece startsBeaudy doesn’t deserve to play fullback either.
Doesn’t score anymore, doesn’t have a long punt.
I am not quite ready to throw him out to pasture just yet, but I admit that thought has crossed my mind too.
me either, definitely a squad member
But he's an adequate fullback and a diabolical 10.
It's sort of interesting how quietly, as the year has progressed, our back 3 have actually become the teams most pressing issue, when at the start it would have been assumed they were our strength
Jordan isn't on tour, but has struggled as much as he has excelled this year
Clarke has a few glaring issues to work on
Reece is so busy, but has errors in his game as well
JBarret has gone to 12, but at fullback he's slow and not exactly an open field threat. His kicking game isn't top notch either
BBarrett is filling in, and looks it. Not 100% under the high ball, struggles to kick more than 25 metres.None of them are bad options by any stretch of the imagination, but not a single one is an out and out star absolutely demanding selection either (Jordan has the highest ceiling though)
@mariner4life it was interesting listening to Beaver afte the game and he said Mo’unga to 10 Jordie to 12, ALB at 13, Ioane to left wing and Beaudie to fullback.
Said it with a straight face too.
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@mariner4life it was interesting listening to Beaver afte the game and he said Mo’unga to 10 Jordie to 12, ALB at 13, Ioane to left wing and Beaudie to fullback.
Said it with a straight face too.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@mariner4life it was interesting listening to Beaver afte the game and he said Mo’unga to 10 Jordie to 12, ALB at 13, Ioane to left wing and Beaudie to fullback.
Said it with a straight face too.
so close Beav, so close
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
Here’s a couple of stats that may come as a surprise:
-
Nonu started at 2nd 5 with nine different centres.
-
Conrad started at centre with ten different 2nd 5s.
-
Between 2005 and 2015 there were 45 tests that neither of them featured in the starting midfield.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
Here’s a couple of stats that may come as a surprise:
-
Nonu started at 2nd 5 with nine different centres.
-
Conrad started at centre with ten different 2nd 5s.
-
Between 2005 and 2015 there were 45 tests that neither of them featured in the starting midfield.
Heres another stat. The played in 62 tests together. Do we have 62 tests between now and the QF?
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
Here’s a couple of stats that may come as a surprise:
-
Nonu started at 2nd 5 with nine different centres.
-
Conrad started at centre with ten different 2nd 5s.
-
Between 2005 and 2015 there were 45 tests that neither of them featured in the starting midfield.
Heres another stat. The played in 62 tests together. Do we have 62 tests between now and the QF?
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
Here’s a couple of stats that may come as a surprise:
-
Nonu started at 2nd 5 with nine different centres.
-
Conrad started at centre with ten different 2nd 5s.
-
Between 2005 and 2015 there were 45 tests that neither of them featured in the starting midfield.
Heres another stat. The played in 62 tests together. Do we have 62 tests between now and the QF?
I think we have 63. So plenty of time.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.We don't have time ffs. 10 tests. TEN is what we have between now and a QF exit. We had time in 2020 and 2021. Now we don't.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@MajorRage Agree re forwards but our set piece lost us quite a bit of territory and possession today which needs to be improved.
Against a fired up decent Scotland pack, I think they did ok.
Scotland at home isn't what it used to be. It's a real challenge now.
@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@MajorRage Agree re forwards but our set piece lost us quite a bit of territory and possession today which needs to be improved.
Against a fired up decent Scotland pack, I think they did ok.
Scotland at home isn't what it used to be. It's a real challenge now.
To challenge this a little - Scotland at home in 2022:
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Lost NZ by 8
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Beat Fiji by 16
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Lost Oz by 1
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Lost France by 19
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Beat England by 3
So they won that 6N opener against England, plus Fiji at home?
I mean, no shame in losing to NZ or France at home, but the Wobblies are something like 3 from 27 this year...not sure the results show that these guys should be anything other than cannon fodder for us*
*ducks arrogant head for cover....
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
Here’s a couple of stats that may come as a surprise:
-
Nonu started at 2nd 5 with nine different centres.
-
Conrad started at centre with ten different 2nd 5s.
-
Between 2005 and 2015 there were 45 tests that neither of them featured in the starting midfield.
Heres another stat. The played in 62 tests together. Do we have 62 tests between now and the QF?
I think we have 63. So plenty of time.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
Here’s a couple of stats that may come as a surprise:
-
Nonu started at 2nd 5 with nine different centres.
-
Conrad started at centre with ten different 2nd 5s.
-
Between 2005 and 2015 there were 45 tests that neither of them featured in the starting midfield.
Heres another stat. The played in 62 tests together. Do we have 62 tests between now and the QF?
I think we have 6.3. So plenty of time.
Fixed.
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@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@MajorRage Agree re forwards but our set piece lost us quite a bit of territory and possession today which needs to be improved.
Against a fired up decent Scotland pack, I think they did ok.
Scotland at home isn't what it used to be. It's a real challenge now.
To challenge this a little - Scotland at home in 2022:
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Lost NZ by 8
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Beat Fiji by 16
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Lost Oz by 1
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Lost France by 19
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Beat England by 3
So they won that 6N opener against England, plus Fiji at home?
I mean, no shame in losing to NZ or France at home, but the Wobblies are something like 3 from 27 this year...not sure the results show that these guys should be anything other than cannon fodder for us*
*ducks arrogant head for cover....
@voodoo each game on its merit and all that….
I think it’s pretty difficult to draw too much from one game against one team and one against another. Refs, cards, conditions all have a huge bearing on how match results play out these days.
I think all those results show is that Scotland are an inconsistent side that can play decent footy but don’t do it often enough to win more than they lose.
There’s quite a few sides like that and Oz are clearly in that category.
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Taylor and Stanley had played ONE test together prior to the 87 WC
95 Lomu Kronfeld Mehts and Osborne had 5 tests between them
2011 On top of the injury issues at 10 the back 3 practically got introduced on the way to Eden Park for the first test.
they are 3 of our 4 most successful WC's 2015 is the outlier.
Sure it's nice to have a setlled experience team with viable back-up options across the fiels, but it hardly ever happens.
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@voodoo each game on its merit and all that….
I think it’s pretty difficult to draw too much from one game against one team and one against another. Refs, cards, conditions all have a huge bearing on how match results play out these days.
I think all those results show is that Scotland are an inconsistent side that can play decent footy but don’t do it often enough to win more than they lose.
There’s quite a few sides like that and Oz are clearly in that category.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@voodoo each game on its merit and all that….
I think it’s pretty difficult to draw too much from one game against one team and one against another. Refs, cards, conditions all have a huge bearing on how match results play out these days.
I think all those results show is that Scotland are an inconsistent side that can play decent footy but don’t do it often enough to win more than they lose.
There’s quite a few sides like that and Oz are clearly in that category.
Ahh, an inconsistent side, remember when we didn't used to fall into that category?
The glory days!
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I thought it was really interesting how Murphy officiated the breakdown. He clearly allowed players to compete for the ball that were leaning on other players (to the advantage of both sides at times). I’m not sure what he thought or why it appeared so different than other refs. Could it be that his interpretation was because those players being leaned on were off their feet that they were technically not part of the ruck?
Plus I thought he was very quick to blow the whistle on guys going off their feet in attacking rucks. Now I don’t mind that, but that was different to others who allow a little bit if it doesn’t necessarily impact the play.
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I thought it was really interesting how Murphy officiated the breakdown. He clearly allowed players to compete for the ball that were leaning on other players (to the advantage of both sides at times). I’m not sure what he thought or why it appeared so different than other refs. Could it be that his interpretation was because those players being leaned on were off their feet that they were technically not part of the ruck?
Plus I thought he was very quick to blow the whistle on guys going off their feet in attacking rucks. Now I don’t mind that, but that was different to others who allow a little bit if it doesn’t necessarily impact the play.
@ACT-Crusader one of Ardie's right on our line was hilarious, he just leaned on all the scots and picked the ball up. And got rewarded! it looked so wrong, just too easy
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I thought the Irish ref was pretty damn good actually. Everytime I thought he had it wrong, the replay showed he either had it right, or you could see why he adjudicated it the way he did.
What wasn't was the service and decision making from our scrumhalf, which flowed into the five-eighth. Then our 12 decided to have a shocker. 13 with a brain fart and then constantly offside.
Credit to TJP. His calmness and decision making was excellent in that final quarter and substantially added to our effectiveness. Anyone still suggesting Rieko should move back to the wing was clearly dropped on their head as a baby.
Defensively in the middle of the park the All Blacks structure is bewilderingly shite. Every team we come up against gets it wide and around us easily. ALB's card came from a gaping hole where the pillar should have been at the ruck. Unfathomable how that happens at test level.
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@ACT-Crusader one of Ardie's right on our line was hilarious, he just leaned on all the scots and picked the ball up. And got rewarded! it looked so wrong, just too easy
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader one of Ardie's right on our line was hilarious, he just leaned on all the scots and picked the ball up. And got rewarded! it looked so wrong, just too easy
In that regard he was remarkably consistent. which is all you an hope for these days.
