Foster, Robertson etc
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kiwiwomble I really wasn't comparing Razor to Foster per se. Just pointing out his CV was lighter than it is now. Super Rugby wasn't as strong as it had been previously. Crusaders beat the Lions twice and Jaguares - two of the weaker finalists IMO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Super_Rugby_Final
In 2019, Jaguares 23 that played the final were all internationals, only 2 guys on the bench are now ex-Pumas.
Razor's 2019 results with merely a club team:
49-17 (Buenos Aires) 19-3 (Chch)
Foster's results with All Blacks against the same players:
15-25, 36-0, 18-25, 52-3. 2/4 wins is quite simply embarrassing.
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kiwiwomble I really wasn't comparing Razor to Foster per se. Just pointing out his CV was lighter than it is now. Super Rugby wasn't as strong as it had been previously. Crusaders beat the Lions twice and Jaguares - two of the weaker finalists IMO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Super_Rugby_Final
In 2019, Jaguares 23 that played the final were all internationals, only 2 guys on the bench are now ex-Pumas.
Razor's 2019 results with merely a club team:
49-17 (Buenos Aires) 19-3 (Chch)
Foster's results with All Blacks against the same players:
15-25, 36-0, 18-25, 52-3. 2/4 wins is quite simply embarrassing.
So you're saying Cheika is a better coach than Robertson?
Sign him up.
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@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
I'm not sure I follow on that. He's a head coach and sees that as his role, I can't see how it would be good for him or the head coach to go in as assistant. He's going to have his tenure judged on someone else's results and have nowhere near the control he might need to perform as he knows how.
I mean, who's to say he wouldn't have gone the way of Plumtree?
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@ploughboy said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Sometimes people forget what Razor managed to do at the start of his Crusaders tenure with a very raw squad. The team had lost Carter, McCaw, Read, Nadolo, Dagg, Crotty and Ellis (along with a few less well known stars). Most pundits expected a slow rebuild but he managed to build a winning team from players who on paper shouldn't have been ready. Since then we know that he is very skilled at motivating players, building campaigns with focus and strategy and thinking outside the box, for example there were a few eyebrows raised when he convinced ROG to join him, same when he recruited Matera (NZ tends to be more insular). These are skills that translate to any level IMO (Innovation, strategic thinking, good personnel manager).
dont think this matches up with your post
crusaders 2017 squadForwards: Michael Alaalatoa, Wyatt Crockett, Oliver Jager, Joe Moody, Tim Perry, Owen Franks, Ben Funnell, Andrew Makalio, Codie Taylor, Scott Barrett, Luke Romano, Quinten Strange, Sam Whitelock, Heiden Bedwell-Curtis, Jed Brown, Mitchell Dunshea, Kieran Read, Pete Samu, Jordan Taufua, Matt Todd.
Backs: Mitchell Drummond, Leon Fukofuka, Bryn Hall, Tim Bateman, Marty McKenzie, Richie Mo'unga, Ryan Crotty, Jack Goodhue, David Havili, Seta Tamanivalu, Sean Wainui, George Bridge, Israel Dagg, Sione Fifita, Mitchell Hunt, Digby Ioane, Jone Macilai, Manasa Mataele.
Good: The midfield looks stronger with Jack Goodhue, Seta Tamanivalu and Tim Bateman handy additions to join Ryan Crotty. Promising young forwards Mitch Dunshea and Andrew Makalio bolster the pack.
Bad: It remains to be seen if veteran ex-Wallaby Digby Ioane can fill the massive void left by Nemani Nadolo.
In: Bateman (Japan), Ioane (Japan), Tamanivalu (Chiefs), Hall (Blues), Jager (Canterbury), Makalio ( Ta$man), Strange ( Ta$man), Bedwell-Curtis (Manawatu), Dunshea (Canterbury), Goodhue (Canterbury), Brown (Canterbury), Bridge (Canterbury), Mataele (Taranaki).
Out: Johnny McNicholl (Wales), Nemani Nadolo (France), Alex Hodgman (Blues), Jimmy Tupou (Blues), Tim Boys (released), Kieron Fonotia (Wales), Andrew Ellis (Japan), Reed Prinsep (Hurricanes), Robbie Fruean (England), Ben Volavola (released), Ged Robinson (retired).
that Blues squad looked pretty handy from 2017
Forwards: Gerard Cowley-Tuioti, Epalahame Faiva, Charlie Faumuina, Blake Gibson, Josh Goodhue, Alex Hodgman, Akira Ioane, Jerome Kaino, Steven Luatua, Sione Mafileo, Pauliasi Manu, Matt Moulds, Brandon Nansen, James Parsons, Sam Prattley, Kara Pryor, Scott Scrafton , Murphy Taramai, Patrick Tuipulotu, Jimmy Tupou, Ofa Tu'ungafasiBacks: Michael Collins, Matt Duffie, TJ Faiane, Billy Guyton, Rieko Ioane, Matt Vaega, George Moala, Melani Nanai, Sam Nock, Declan O'Donnell, Stephen Perofeta, Augustine Pulu, Rene Ranger, Jordon Trainor, Ihaia West, Sonny Bill Williams, Piers Francis
A few big AB's in there and surprising to see Stephen Perofeta, he has been in SR for 6 seasons.
@Chris There really was nothing special about that team haha. Rieko was about 12 years old, we never had a 9/10 back then, a very bad tight 5 excluding Faumuina as Tuipulotu and Tu'ungafasi were still a bit raw back then, Kaino was over the hill, Moala was a winger playing 12 lol, SBW played about 5 games that year and we couldn't defend a rolling maul to save our lives.
Yes we had a couple of good players in that side, but the bad definitely outweighed the good in that side lol, we were easily the worst out of the NZ teams back then on paper and with the results, and just relied on Akira Ioane to come up with something in those times.
Anyway, carry on with the Foster out/Razor is the best chat guys haha.
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
I'm not sure I follow on that. He's a head coach and sees that as his role, I can't see how it would be good for him or the head coach to go in as assistant. He's going to have his tenure judged on someone else's results and have nowhere near the control he might need to perform as he knows how.
I mean, who's to say he wouldn't have gone the way of Plumtree?
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
"Scott has such a clear vision around the theme he would want the team to be built on and he would be uncompromising with that."
"He is a visionary in that respect and you can only really do that if you are the head guy," Mark Jones said.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kiwiwomble I really wasn't comparing Razor to Foster per se. Just pointing out his CV was lighter than it is now. Super Rugby wasn't as strong as it had been previously. Crusaders beat the Lions twice and Jaguares - two of the weaker finalists IMO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Super_Rugby_Final
In 2019, Jaguares 23 that played the final were all internationals, only 2 guys on the bench are now ex-Pumas.
Razor's 2019 results with merely a club team:
49-17 (Buenos Aires) 19-3 (Chch)
Foster's results with All Blacks against the same players:
15-25, 36-0, 18-25, 52-3. 2/4 wins is quite simply embarrassing.
So you're saying Cheika is a better coach than Robertson?
Sign him up.
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So you're saying Cheika is a better coach than Robertson?
Well he certainly improved Pablo Matera . . . wait a darn minute...
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@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
I don't think he was selfish, just ambitious - which is fine. Def. a bit naive though
I think the issue is around turning down an AB assistant coach role and making it clear that, as far as he was concerned, it was Head Coach or nothing. That would rightly raise more than a few warning flags around team-work and upward-management with NZR.
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
I don't think he was selfish, just ambitious - which is fine. Def. a bit naive though
I think the issue is around turning down an AB assistant coach role and making it clear that, as far as he was concerned, it was Head Coach or nothing. That would rightly raise more than a few warning flags around team-work and upward-management with NZR.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
That would rightly raise more than a few warning flags around team-work and upward-management with NZR.
Then I would say NZR is at fault there and being naive.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
That would rightly raise more than a few warning flags around team-work and upward-management with NZR.
Then I would say NZR is at fault there and being naive.
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
That would rightly raise more than a few warning flags around team-work and upward-management with NZR.
Then I would say NZR is at fault there and being naive.
Until they'd asked him to take an Assistant role, they wouldn't have known he'd refuse and only take the head job or none at all.
If they did know, you could argue they shouldn't have asked him to discuss the job,I guess.
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@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
That would rightly raise more than a few warning flags around team-work and upward-management with NZR.
Then I would say NZR is at fault there and being naive.
Until they'd asked him to take an Assistant role, they wouldn't have known he'd refuse and only take the head job or none at all.
If they did know, you could argue they shouldn't have asked him to discuss the job,I guess.
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@Chris-B said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Unions seem to make decisions based on Cup performance. Or, even worse, are paralysed from making decisions by an impending Cup.
If you think you have the right guy, how the Cup goes should have no bearing on your decision making, it's like 6 weeks of rugby over the length of a couple of year contract. Good teams have bad days, why fucking base your biggest decision on one bad day?
If you don't think you have the right guy, why would the outcome of the Cup matter for the same reason? An average coach can win it if the variables fall your way. If the rest of the evidence is week, but it comes together for 6 weeks, why change your thinking?Agree with most of this.
The evidence is in on three years of Fozzie's four year tenure.
It's been a pretty mediocre period, full of up and down performances - and littered with losses (and draws) from "underperformances".
If I'm the board and Robinson, I'd be making these points at Fozzie's performance review. Could have done better. Now, Ian, we're backing you to the hilt for RWC 2023. Tell us what you want and need to get the job done and we'll do our best to give you what we can.
BUT, this is your shot. After that, it's a change of direction and like Eddie, here's your chance to announce you're stepping down after RWC with our thanks for your efforts.
And write Razor a contract and lock him in.
If any of the board want Fozz to stay under any circumstance they should give themselves an uppercut
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If any of the board want Fozz to stay under any circumstance they should give themselves an uppercut
Depends on how well he does at RWC2023 (say, makes the final) and whether he wants to stay on, I guess.
Ironically, the debacle of late 2021/early 2022 could strengthen the case.for retaining him - being seen as someone who can ride out adversity and succeed might be a big plus with some board members. Not that I'm tempting fate here.....
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@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
Warning flags? Warning flags are being shellacked on the end of year tour, losing a first ever home tour to Ireland and a home test to Argentina, all the while seemingly having no clue how to improve the situation
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If any of the board want Fozz to stay under any circumstance they should give themselves an uppercut
Depends on how well he does at RWC2023 (say, makes the final) and whether he wants to stay on, I guess.
Ironically, the debacle of late 2021/early 2022 could strengthen the case.for retaining him - being seen as someone who can ride out adversity and succeed might be a big plus with some board members. Not that I'm tempting fate here.....
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If any of the board want Fozz to stay under any circumstance they should give themselves an uppercut
Depends on how well he does at RWC2023 (say, makes the final) and whether he wants to stay on, I guess.
Ironically, the debacle of late 2021/early 2022 could strengthen the case.for retaining him - being seen as someone who can ride out adversity and succeed might be a big plus with some board members. Not that I'm tempting fate here.....
His chosen team, except for McLeod has been stripped from him. He feels like a dead man walking post RWC. Of course winning it would complicate things, but his new assistants seemed to coincide with the side improving, he is the same guy who drove us down before that
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If any of the board want Fozz to stay under any circumstance they should give themselves an uppercut
Depends on how well he does at RWC2023 (say, makes the final) and whether he wants to stay on, I guess.
Ironically, the debacle of late 2021/early 2022 could strengthen the case.for retaining him - being seen as someone who can ride out adversity and succeed might be a big plus with some board members. Not that I'm tempting fate here.....
His chosen team, except for McLeod has been stripped from him. He feels like a dead man walking post RWC. Of course winning it would complicate things, but his new assistants seemed to coincide with the side improving, he is the same guy who drove us down before that
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If any of the board want Fozz to stay under any circumstance they should give themselves an uppercut
Depends on how well he does at RWC2023 (say, makes the final) and whether he wants to stay on, I guess.
Ironically, the debacle of late 2021/early 2022 could strengthen the case.for retaining him - being seen as someone who can ride out adversity and succeed might be a big plus with some board members. Not that I'm tempting fate here.....
His chosen team, except for McLeod has been stripped from him. He feels like a dead man walking post RWC. Of course winning it would complicate things, but his new assistants seemed to coincide with the side improving, he is the same guy who drove us down before that
Not quite. He wanted Joe Schmidt from Day 1 but Joe was unwilling/unavailable. And I take the view that if the head honcho rightly takes the shit when thing aren't going well (regardless of his assistants), he equally gets the plaudits when things do go well.
I think a root-and-branch review on NZ Rugby is in order after the WC to learn the lessons from the last 6-8 years or so and plot a new approach as the rugby world has changed dramatically in that period. There's a whole raft of issues which probably need fixing and selecting & developing the new AB coaching team needs to form a key part of that.
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@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
Warning flags? Warning flags are being shellacked on the end of year tour, losing a first ever home tour to Ireland and a home test to Argentina, all the while seemingly having no clue how to improve the situation
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
Warning flags? Warning flags are being shellacked on the end of year tour, losing a first ever home tour to Ireland and a home test to Argentina, all the while seemingly having no clue how to improve the situation
Not sure what that has to do with Robertson's desire to be head coach and not assistant coach to what appeared to be a failing All Black setup.
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
Warning flags? Warning flags are being shellacked on the end of year tour, losing a first ever home tour to Ireland and a home test to Argentina, all the while seemingly having no clue how to improve the situation
Not sure what that has to do with Robertson's desire to be head coach and not assistant coach to what appeared to be a failing All Black setup.
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
Warning flags? Warning flags are being shellacked on the end of year tour, losing a first ever home tour to Ireland and a home test to Argentina, all the while seemingly having no clue how to improve the situation
Not sure what that has to do with Robertson's desire to be head coach and not assistant coach to what appeared to be a failing All Black setup.
Nothing. We were talking warning flags and I digressed to imply that Fozzie overseeing the ABs to all those losses and the manner of those losses was a warning flag about his ability to do the job
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@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
Warning flags? Warning flags are being shellacked on the end of year tour, losing a first ever home tour to Ireland and a home test to Argentina, all the while seemingly having no clue how to improve the situation
Not sure what that has to do with Robertson's desire to be head coach and not assistant coach to what appeared to be a failing All Black setup.
Nothing. We were talking warning flags and I digressed to imply that Fozzie overseeing the ABs to all those losses and the manner of those losses was a warning flag about his ability to do the job
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@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
Warning flags? Warning flags are being shellacked on the end of year tour, losing a first ever home tour to Ireland and a home test to Argentina, all the while seemingly having no clue how to improve the situation
Not sure what that has to do with Robertson's desire to be head coach and not assistant coach to what appeared to be a failing All Black setup.
Nothing. We were talking warning flags and I digressed to imply that Fozzie overseeing the ABs to all those losses and the manner of those losses was a warning flag about his ability to do the job
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
Warning flags? Warning flags are being shellacked on the end of year tour, losing a first ever home tour to Ireland and a home test to Argentina, all the while seemingly having no clue how to improve the situation
Not sure what that has to do with Robertson's desire to be head coach and not assistant coach to what appeared to be a failing All Black setup.
Nothing. We were talking warning flags and I digressed to imply that Fozzie overseeing the ABs to all those losses and the manner of those losses was a warning flag about his ability to do the job
was going to say much the same...id be bloody worried of NZR think a coach with a proven track record at the feeder comp for the AB's are worried because hes confident...but ignore red flags like fosters actual results...seems like screwed up priorities to me
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
It is just my opinion and I am sure others here view things differently.
I'm just getting the vibe that he feels entitled to a big job right now and is approaching unions on that basis.
Somewhere like England would actually work for him better than NZ IMO as well. I still still him as a very skilled strategist and planner that needs an equally excellent support team. RFU will give him that whereas his selection in NZ may be slightly limited.I think he wants a promotion and thinks he deserves one. Can't blame him for that because he has been successful in his current role. Like anybody else wanting a promotion he is considering all options. If you are wanting a promotion and your current employer is dithering or doesn't have a spot open it makes sense to consider other options.
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
It is just my opinion and I am sure others here view things differently.
I'm just getting the vibe that he feels entitled to a big job right now and is approaching unions on that basis.
Somewhere like England would actually work for him better than NZ IMO as well. I still still him as a very skilled strategist and planner that needs an equally excellent support team. RFU will give him that whereas his selection in NZ may be slightly limited.I think he wants a promotion and thinks he deserves one. Can't blame him for that because he has been successful in his current role. Like anybody else wanting a promotion he is considering all options. If you are wanting a promotion and your current employer is dithering or doesn't have a spot open it makes sense to consider other options.
But this is the equivalent of you wanting a promotion to be Superintendent of the police force but deciding to become the head of the Bandidos rather than wait for the position to become available.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
It is just my opinion and I am sure others here view things differently.
I'm just getting the vibe that he feels entitled to a big job right now and is approaching unions on that basis.
Somewhere like England would actually work for him better than NZ IMO as well. I still still him as a very skilled strategist and planner that needs an equally excellent support team. RFU will give him that whereas his selection in NZ may be slightly limited.I think he wants a promotion and thinks he deserves one. Can't blame him for that because he has been successful in his current role. Like anybody else wanting a promotion he is considering all options. If you are wanting a promotion and your current employer is dithering or doesn't have a spot open it makes sense to consider other options.
But this is the equivalent of you wanting a promotion to be Superintendent of the police force but deciding to become the head of the Bandidos rather than wait for the position to become available.
@Nepia a tale as old at time....razor is breaking bad
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@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
It is just my opinion and I am sure others here view things differently.
I'm just getting the vibe that he feels entitled to a big job right now and is approaching unions on that basis.
Somewhere like England would actually work for him better than NZ IMO as well. I still still him as a very skilled strategist and planner that needs an equally excellent support team. RFU will give him that whereas his selection in NZ may be slightly limited.I think he wants a promotion and thinks he deserves one. Can't blame him for that because he has been successful in his current role. Like anybody else wanting a promotion he is considering all options. If you are wanting a promotion and your current employer is dithering or doesn't have a spot open it makes sense to consider other options.
But this is the equivalent of you wanting a promotion to be Superintendent of the police force but deciding to become the head of the Bandidos rather than wait for the position to become available.
@Nepia said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
It is just my opinion and I am sure others here view things differently.
I'm just getting the vibe that he feels entitled to a big job right now and is approaching unions on that basis.
Somewhere like England would actually work for him better than NZ IMO as well. I still still him as a very skilled strategist and planner that needs an equally excellent support team. RFU will give him that whereas his selection in NZ may be slightly limited.I think he wants a promotion and thinks he deserves one. Can't blame him for that because he has been successful in his current role. Like anybody else wanting a promotion he is considering all options. If you are wanting a promotion and your current employer is dithering or doesn't have a spot open it makes sense to consider other options.
But this is the equivalent of you wanting a promotion to be Superintendent of the police force but deciding to become the head of the Bandidos rather than wait for the position to become available.
I think, at least in terms of public perception, there are teams you probably don't want to coach if your long term goal is to coach the ABs. The Wallabies is one, England probably another. Whether it matters to the fish heads that make the decisions I have no idea
