All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?
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@sparky said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crazy-Horse As a cool headed business decision, there is no way NZR should be spending the sort of money Toshiba are spending on RM on someone who has never developed into a world-class Test player.
Again, I agree NZR probably shouldn't pay the sort of money Toshiba are offering, but to say he is no great loss is a big call. Whether we like it or not he is at least one of the best 10s in NZ and there is nobody beating down the door. Hopefully that will change in a couple of years but if it doesn't we will be in the poo.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@sparky said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crazy-Horse As a cool headed business decision, there is no way NZR should be spending the sort of money Toshiba are spending on RM on someone who has never developed into a world-class Test player.
Again, I agree NZR probably shouldn't pay the sort of money Toshiba are offering, but to say he is no great loss is a big call. Whether we like it or not he is at least one of the best 10s in NZ and there is nobody beating down the door. Hopefully that will change in a couple of years but if it doesn't we will be in the poo.
He’s struggled with Test rugby for season after season. If a new player comes in and is also a bit shit we’ll be in the same place
Some people are better suited to Test rugby some people are flat track bullies. I’m more positive than you, I’m confident a new player will come in and take their chance
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@sparky said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crazy-Horse As a cool headed business decision, there is no way NZR should be spending the sort of money Toshiba are spending on RM on someone who has never developed into a world-class Test player.
Again, I agree NZR probably shouldn't pay the sort of money Toshiba are offering, but to say he is no great loss is a big call. Whether we like it or not he is at least one of the best 10s in NZ and there is nobody beating down the door. Hopefully that will change in a couple of years but if it doesn't we will be in the poo.
He’s struggled with Test rugby for season after season. If a new player comes in and is also a bit shit we’ll be in the same place
Some people are better suited to Test rugby some people are flat track bullies. I’m more positive than you, I’m confident a new player will come in and take their chance
@Duluth said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@sparky said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crazy-Horse As a cool headed business decision, there is no way NZR should be spending the sort of money Toshiba are spending on RM on someone who has never developed into a world-class Test player.
Again, I agree NZR probably shouldn't pay the sort of money Toshiba are offering, but to say he is no great loss is a big call. Whether we like it or not he is at least one of the best 10s in NZ and there is nobody beating down the door. Hopefully that will change in a couple of years but if it doesn't we will be in the poo.
He’s struggled with Test rugby for season after season. If a new player comes in and is also a bit shit we’ll be in the same place
Some people are better suited to Test rugby some people are flat track bullies. I’m more positive than you, I’m confident a new player will come in and take their chance
Yeah you may be right about a new player taking their chance. But I argue he is also a big loss for Super Rugby, a competition that is already struggling for depth of quality. One of the better Super players in a position where a few NZ teams suck.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@sparky said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crazy-Horse As a cool headed business decision, there is no way NZR should be spending the sort of money Toshiba are spending on RM on someone who has never developed into a world-class Test player.
Again, I agree NZR probably shouldn't pay the sort of money Toshiba are offering, but to say he is no great loss is a big call. Whether we like it or not he is at least one of the best 10s in NZ and there is nobody beating down the door. Hopefully that will change in a couple of years but if it doesn't we will be in the poo.
He’s struggled with Test rugby for season after season. If a new player comes in and is also a bit shit we’ll be in the same place
Some people are better suited to Test rugby some people are flat track bullies. I’m more positive than you, I’m confident a new player will come in and take their chance
Yeah you may be right about a new player taking their chance. But I argue he is also a big loss for Super Rugby, a competition that is already struggling for depth of quality. One of the better Super players in a position where a few NZ teams suck.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
But I argue he is also a big loss for Super Rugby, a competition that is already struggling for depth of quality. One of the better Super players in a position where a few NZ teams suck.
I agree with that part. He’s a star at the lower level
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At Super Rugby level RM's been amazing, one of the best Super Rugby players ever but Super Rugby alone isn't bringing in huge revenue.
There a big challenge for NZR to achieve all three of these.
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A competitve All Blacks team that is Number 1 in the world or close to.
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A Super Rugby competition that is attractive to fans and brings in money in a competitive global market and with tight advertising revenues.
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Supporting community and grassroots rugby so that the talent keeps coming through.
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I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
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I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him. His poor moments/games in black have had nothing to do with the plan. More his execution.
He (and BB) don’t suit the current high level game as they continue to make decisions as if it is 2015 -
At Super Rugby level RM's been amazing, one of the best Super Rugby players ever but Super Rugby alone isn't bringing in huge revenue.
There a big challenge for NZR to achieve all three of these.
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A competitve All Blacks team that is Number 1 in the world or close to.
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A Super Rugby competition that is attractive to fans and brings in money in a competitive global market and with tight advertising revenues.
-
Supporting community and grassroots rugby so that the talent keeps coming through.
@sparky I think this next exodus is the final nail for super rugby. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise. You lose the key allblacks and there is not much difference between a good npc team, just more full time, better coaching.
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@sparky I think this next exodus is the final nail for super rugby. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise. You lose the key allblacks and there is not much difference between a good npc team, just more full time, better coaching.
@muddyriver said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@sparky I think this next exodus is the final nail for super rugby. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise. You lose the key allblacks and there is not much difference between a good npc team, just more full time, better coaching.
This next exodus will just be a normal turnover, the players we're discussing aside from Mo are all over 30.
The same sky is falling commentary happens every time we have an exodus of older players after a RWC.
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@muddyriver said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@sparky I think this next exodus is the final nail for super rugby. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise. You lose the key allblacks and there is not much difference between a good npc team, just more full time, better coaching.
This next exodus will just be a normal turnover, the players we're discussing aside from Mo are all over 30.
The same sky is falling commentary happens every time we have an exodus of older players after a RWC.
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@sparky I think this next exodus is the final nail for super rugby. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise. You lose the key allblacks and there is not much difference between a good npc team, just more full time, better coaching.
@muddyriver Big thing that has to happen to make Super Rugby financially successful again is to full the stadiums.
UK and Europeans won't want any sport on TV anything where the stands are 3/4 empty.
Fewer games, play them in slightly smaller venues if needs be, make them into an enjoyable spectacle for local fans and the world will want to watch.
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I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
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@sparky I think this next exodus is the final nail for super rugby. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise. You lose the key allblacks and there is not much difference between a good npc team, just more full time, better coaching.
@muddyriver said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise.
Potentially, but the full-time gym and diet make a difference
Biggest thing for NZ rugby is the NH clubs running out of money. Lower salaries make it less likely people go overseas
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@muddyriver said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise.
Potentially, but the full-time gym and diet make a difference
Biggest thing for NZ rugby is the NH clubs running out of money. Lower salaries make it less likely people go overseas
@nzzp said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@muddyriver said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise.
Potentially, but the full-time gym and diet make a difference
Biggest thing for NZ rugby is the NH clubs running out of money. Lower salaries make it less likely people go overseas
France and Japan aren't running out of money tho. Really it's the minimum nationals in teams, esp France, that is slowing down exodus.
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@muddyriver said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise.
Potentially, but the full-time gym and diet make a difference
Biggest thing for NZ rugby is the NH clubs running out of money. Lower salaries make it less likely people go overseas
@nzzp said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
Potentially, but the full-time gym and diet make a difference
No one does full time gym and diet can be done irrespective. The difference is that you can train harder knowing that you have recovery time scheduled in and don't have to go to work.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him. His poor moments/games in black have had nothing to do with the plan. More his execution.
He (and BB) don’t suit the current high level game as they continue to make decisions as if it is 2015@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him. His poor moments/games in black have had nothing to do with the plan. More his execution.
He (and BB) don’t suit the current high level game as they continue to make decisions as if it is 2015As per the whole gameplan/ set up of the friggen team! That is part of Stargazer's point.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him. His poor moments/games in black have had nothing to do with the plan. More his execution.
He (and BB) don’t suit the current high level game as they continue to make decisions as if it is 2015As per the whole gameplan/ set up of the friggen team! That is part of Stargazer's point.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him. His poor moments/games in black have had nothing to do with the plan. More his execution.
He (and BB) don’t suit the current high level game as they continue to make decisions as if it is 2015As per the whole gameplan/ set up of the friggen team! That is part of Stargazer's point.
If you think that the way the ABs play now is the same as 2015 then you have forgotten a lot. The backline structure is different, the loose forward tactics very different, front rowers need to be strong and dynamic ....
The comment was flippant but more to say that RM and BB are both instinct players when at their best and that doesn't reap dividends as much at the moment. Defences are better across the park, systems minimise having two or more slow defenders trapped in the backline to exploit, the risk of isolation is huge if you make a break as defences run blockers for supporting players much more...the list goes on.
Both are excellent rugby players and I would love it if the game and law interpretations allowed them to showcase their skills more, but at the moment they often bang their heads against a brick wall.
The most effective teams at the moment play very structured patterns with multiple options (e.g. Ireland) and have a controlling decision making 10 that runs the plays as they see them, feeding options until they break through or march up field. If that doesn't work then they manipulate the defence through precise kicking from hand.
As good as they are, neither BB or RM can do that style well. When the gameplan tries it, their execution is off, either poor kicks or passes at the shoulder or timing issues. -
What about a utility like Jackson Garden-Bachop. Can play first five and front row.
@Magpie_in_aus said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
What about a utility like Jackson Garden-Bachop. Can play first five and front row.
I think Scots College might have tried those two combinations using both JGB and Alex Fidow. Loosehead and tighthead as well as first and second five respectively as well only to find out neither were suited in either position!
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
Richie Mo'unga is probably the worst case of the late Hansen and Foster era lost generation of All Blacks - players chronically mismanaged and mucked around with to the point they have not been able to consistently perform to their potential on the international stage.
It's not often you see a player so actively disadvantaged & undermined by tactics, selection and team management but it feels like that is what we have had with Mo'unga's handling over the last five years.
Mo'unga's career started with Hansen actively talking his performances down and clearly reluctant to move away from his preferred Barrett. If this is the end of Mo'unga in Black, hopefully he gets 12 months with the trust and freedom to run things himself unimpeded. If he does, I think we will realize what the AB management has wasted for the last five years and what we will miss in future.
Mo'unga has still shone but so much of his career he has been undermined by selection, tactics and dual playmakers. As Mo'unga has sadly found out time and time again, It’s pretty tough to drive a car when an overbearing passenger keeps clutching at the steering wheel from the back.
Hopefully he can have a great next twelve months in black and who knows, we may see him back on his return under a different coaching regime.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him. His poor moments/games in black have had nothing to do with the plan. More his execution.
He (and BB) don’t suit the current high level game as they continue to make decisions as if it is 2015@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him.
Richie Mo'unga's international career has been a 'how to' of not instilling any confidence or trust in a talented player, while also actively impeding him with tactics that don't suit his game.
