All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?
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@muddyriver said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@sparky I think this next exodus is the final nail for super rugby. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise. You lose the key allblacks and there is not much difference between a good npc team, just more full time, better coaching.
This next exodus will just be a normal turnover, the players we're discussing aside from Mo are all over 30.
The same sky is falling commentary happens every time we have an exodus of older players after a RWC.
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@sparky I think this next exodus is the final nail for super rugby. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise. You lose the key allblacks and there is not much difference between a good npc team, just more full time, better coaching.
@muddyriver Big thing that has to happen to make Super Rugby financially successful again is to full the stadiums.
UK and Europeans won't want any sport on TV anything where the stands are 3/4 empty.
Fewer games, play them in slightly smaller venues if needs be, make them into an enjoyable spectacle for local fans and the world will want to watch.
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I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
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@sparky I think this next exodus is the final nail for super rugby. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise. You lose the key allblacks and there is not much difference between a good npc team, just more full time, better coaching.
@muddyriver said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise.
Potentially, but the full-time gym and diet make a difference
Biggest thing for NZ rugby is the NH clubs running out of money. Lower salaries make it less likely people go overseas
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@muddyriver said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise.
Potentially, but the full-time gym and diet make a difference
Biggest thing for NZ rugby is the NH clubs running out of money. Lower salaries make it less likely people go overseas
@nzzp said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@muddyriver said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise.
Potentially, but the full-time gym and diet make a difference
Biggest thing for NZ rugby is the NH clubs running out of money. Lower salaries make it less likely people go overseas
France and Japan aren't running out of money tho. Really it's the minimum nationals in teams, esp France, that is slowing down exodus.
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@muddyriver said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
. It will be just a slightly better npc, player wise.
Potentially, but the full-time gym and diet make a difference
Biggest thing for NZ rugby is the NH clubs running out of money. Lower salaries make it less likely people go overseas
@nzzp said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
Potentially, but the full-time gym and diet make a difference
No one does full time gym and diet can be done irrespective. The difference is that you can train harder knowing that you have recovery time scheduled in and don't have to go to work.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him. His poor moments/games in black have had nothing to do with the plan. More his execution.
He (and BB) don’t suit the current high level game as they continue to make decisions as if it is 2015@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him. His poor moments/games in black have had nothing to do with the plan. More his execution.
He (and BB) don’t suit the current high level game as they continue to make decisions as if it is 2015As per the whole gameplan/ set up of the friggen team! That is part of Stargazer's point.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him. His poor moments/games in black have had nothing to do with the plan. More his execution.
He (and BB) don’t suit the current high level game as they continue to make decisions as if it is 2015As per the whole gameplan/ set up of the friggen team! That is part of Stargazer's point.
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him. His poor moments/games in black have had nothing to do with the plan. More his execution.
He (and BB) don’t suit the current high level game as they continue to make decisions as if it is 2015As per the whole gameplan/ set up of the friggen team! That is part of Stargazer's point.
If you think that the way the ABs play now is the same as 2015 then you have forgotten a lot. The backline structure is different, the loose forward tactics very different, front rowers need to be strong and dynamic ....
The comment was flippant but more to say that RM and BB are both instinct players when at their best and that doesn't reap dividends as much at the moment. Defences are better across the park, systems minimise having two or more slow defenders trapped in the backline to exploit, the risk of isolation is huge if you make a break as defences run blockers for supporting players much more...the list goes on.
Both are excellent rugby players and I would love it if the game and law interpretations allowed them to showcase their skills more, but at the moment they often bang their heads against a brick wall.
The most effective teams at the moment play very structured patterns with multiple options (e.g. Ireland) and have a controlling decision making 10 that runs the plays as they see them, feeding options until they break through or march up field. If that doesn't work then they manipulate the defence through precise kicking from hand.
As good as they are, neither BB or RM can do that style well. When the gameplan tries it, their execution is off, either poor kicks or passes at the shoulder or timing issues. -
What about a utility like Jackson Garden-Bachop. Can play first five and front row.
@Magpie_in_aus said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
What about a utility like Jackson Garden-Bachop. Can play first five and front row.
I think Scots College might have tried those two combinations using both JGB and Alex Fidow. Loosehead and tighthead as well as first and second five respectively as well only to find out neither were suited in either position!
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
Richie Mo'unga is probably the worst case of the late Hansen and Foster era lost generation of All Blacks - players chronically mismanaged and mucked around with to the point they have not been able to consistently perform to their potential on the international stage.
It's not often you see a player so actively disadvantaged & undermined by tactics, selection and team management but it feels like that is what we have had with Mo'unga's handling over the last five years.
Mo'unga's career started with Hansen actively talking his performances down and clearly reluctant to move away from his preferred Barrett. If this is the end of Mo'unga in Black, hopefully he gets 12 months with the trust and freedom to run things himself unimpeded. If he does, I think we will realize what the AB management has wasted for the last five years and what we will miss in future.
Mo'unga has still shone but so much of his career he has been undermined by selection, tactics and dual playmakers. As Mo'unga has sadly found out time and time again, It’s pretty tough to drive a car when an overbearing passenger keeps clutching at the steering wheel from the back.
Hopefully he can have a great next twelve months in black and who knows, we may see him back on his return under a different coaching regime.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him. His poor moments/games in black have had nothing to do with the plan. More his execution.
He (and BB) don’t suit the current high level game as they continue to make decisions as if it is 2015@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him.
Richie Mo'unga's international career has been a 'how to' of not instilling any confidence or trust in a talented player, while also actively impeding him with tactics that don't suit his game.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him.
Richie Mo'unga's international career has been a 'how to' of not instilling any confidence or trust in a talented player, while also actively impeding him with tactics that don't suit his game.
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him.
Richie Mo'unga's international career has been a 'how to' of not instilling any confidence or trust in a talented player, while also actively impeding him with tactics that don't suit his game.
Do you want to back that up or is it just a thought?
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Some stats for RM
44 tests
30 wins
11 losses
3 draws:30 starts: 22 wins 3 draws 5 losses
14 as sub: 8 wins, 6 lossesIf ever there has been a guy given plenty of chances but being very hot and cold it has been him.
I dont get the blame directed at a dual playmaker system. Mostly he has subbed on and off with BB.He has never fund his rhythm in test rugby. Partly because he had to keep shuffling away from the tackle zone in early days then not stringing performances together in latter ones. His kicking from hand can be good some days and awful in others. To me that is why he isn't confident. He doesn't trust his own option taking.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him.
Richie Mo'unga's international career has been a 'how to' of not instilling any confidence or trust in a talented player, while also actively impeding him with tactics that don't suit his game.
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him.
Richie Mo'unga's international career has been a 'how to' of not instilling any confidence or trust in a talented player, while also actively impeding him with tactics that don't suit his game.
So are you suggesting RMo shouldn't of been picked because he only has one type of play? Or that he is so good you select a team to suit his style?
I not sure what the answer is myself, I think he best option at 10, but suspect it not a position we strong in. -
Richie Mounga's strengths are perfectly suited to Super Rugby where he absolutely carves and has been the best player in Super Rugby.
Those same strengths don't suit test match footy so much. He's never been a player that drives a team around the field with his boot. There's very few players in NZ that do currently.
Hopefully with his future finalised in his last test season he goes out with a bang and dominates.
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Richie Mounga's strengths are perfectly suited to Super Rugby where he absolutely carves and has been the best player in Super Rugby.
Those same strengths don't suit test match footy so much. He's never been a player that drives a team around the field with his boot. There's very few players in NZ that do currently.
Hopefully with his future finalised in his last test season he goes out with a bang and dominates.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
He's never been a player that drives a team around the field with his boot. There's very few players in NZ that do currently.
Jordie Barrett, Sam Gilbert & Zarn Sullivan.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
This is the hammer and nail really, and why he goes missing for large periods against the top sides. He's always stationing himself a bit wider looking for mismatches that just don't exist, and the ABs really suffer as a result because the bloke that's meant to be directing play hasn't touched the ball for 4 phases. It's little wonder Beauden has inserted himself at first receiver when that happens. That's just the way he plays, and my criticism of the coaches would be they allowed him to do that too much because he had success with it at Super level.
Outside of that there's not a lot to his game. His kicking game became a bit of a myth when Beauden was starting, but we've seen this year that it's not up to scratch at test level. Defensively he's improved but is still a weak point. I've said in the past that I think his best position for the ABs is from the bench where we can better utilise his strengths against tiring defenders. Unfortunately Beauden's form went downhill this year which meant he has had to start. An in-form Beauden would really help our chances at the RWC, but given his age I don't think we'll get that.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
This is the hammer and nail really, and why he goes missing for large periods against the top sides. He's always stationing himself a bit wider looking for mismatches that just don't exist, and the ABs really suffer as a result because the bloke that's meant to be directing play hasn't touched the ball for 4 phases. It's little wonder Beauden has inserted himself at first receiver when that happens. That's just the way he plays, and my criticism of the coaches would be they allowed him to do that too much because he had success with it at Super level.
Outside of that there's not a lot to his game. His kicking game became a bit of a myth when Beauden was starting, but we've seen this year that it's not up to scratch at test level. Defensively he's improved but is still a weak point. I've said in the past that I think his best position for the ABs is from the bench where we can better utilise his strengths against tiring defenders. Unfortunately Beauden's form went downhill this year which meant he has had to start. An in-form Beauden would really help our chances at the RWC, but given his age I don't think we'll get that.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
Richie Mo'unga is probably the worst case of the late Hansen and Foster era lost generation of All Blacks - players chronically mismanaged and mucked around with to the point they have not been able to consistently perform to their potential on the international stage.
It's not often you see a player so actively disadvantaged & undermined by tactics, selection and team management but it feels like that is what we have had with Mo'unga's handling over the last five years.
Mo'unga's career started with Hansen actively talking his performances down and clearly reluctant to move away from his preferred Barrett. If this is the end of Mo'unga in Black, hopefully he gets 12 months with the trust and freedom to run things himself unimpeded. If he does, I think we will realize what the AB management has wasted for the last five years and what we will miss in future.
Mo'unga has still shone but so much of his career he has been undermined by selection, tactics and dual playmakers. As Mo'unga has sadly found out time and time again, It’s pretty tough to drive a car when an overbearing passenger keeps clutching at the steering wheel from the back.
Hopefully he can have a great next twelve months in black and who knows, we may see him back on his return under a different coaching regime.
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
Richie Mo'unga is probably the worst case of the late Hansen and Foster era lost generation of All Blacks - players chronically mismanaged and mucked around with to the point they have not been able to consistently perform to their potential on the international stage.
It's not often you see a player so actively disadvantaged & undermined by tactics, selection and team management but it feels like that is what we have had with Mo'unga's handling over the last five years.
Mo'unga's career started with Hansen actively talking his performances down and clearly reluctant to move away from his preferred Barrett. If this is the end of Mo'unga in Black, hopefully he gets 12 months with the trust and freedom to run things himself unimpeded. If he does, I think we will realize what the AB management has wasted for the last five years and what we will miss in future.
Mo'unga has still shone but so much of his career he has been undermined by selection, tactics and dual playmakers. As Mo'unga has sadly found out time and time again, It’s pretty tough to drive a car when an overbearing passenger keeps clutching at the steering wheel from the back.
Hopefully he can have a great next twelve months in black and who knows, we may see him back on his return under a different coaching regime.
It feels strange to say this about a 100-test AB, but I wonder if BB has been a net negative for the team since 2016 when he took over running the cutter. That is, to fit his freakish skills into the team, and indeed to give him as many opportunities as possible to exploit them during that period, we may have sidelined players better suited to the overall on field management of the team, such Cruden and then Mounga.
