Foster, Robertson etc
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If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
@No-Quarter Nothing can be pinned on Robertson as he was being paid to win the Super Rugby title hence he would have his players playing his style of rugby that he deemed necessary to achieve that goal.
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If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
And what style would that be? Under Razor, Mo'unga's won 6 consecutive titles by playing intelligent pragmatic, structured rugby in the play-offs. They only reserve the helter-skelter headless Ian Foster style rugby for the Australian fixtures...
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Compare the quality of the tight 5s in the 2022 Super Rugby final and you can see where the game was won and lost.
@KiwiMurph how about the semi-final where Chiefs' All Black forward pack were all over Crusaders however couldn't manage to convert any of that dominance into points?
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@KiwiMurph how about the semi-final where Chiefs' All Black forward pack were all over Crusaders however couldn't manage to convert any of that dominance into points?
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@KiwiMurph how about the semi-final where Chiefs' All Black forward pack were all over Crusaders however couldn't manage to convert any of that dominance into points?
Yep - hence why only Tupaea of that Chiefs backline made the initial ABs squad
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If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Blame the competition instead, perhaps? Unless it produces the best right for its audience (not that I would say it does)
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@KiwiMurph how about the semi-final where Chiefs' All Black forward pack were all over Crusaders however couldn't manage to convert any of that dominance into points?
Yep - hence why only Tupaea of that Chiefs backline made the initial ABs squad
@KiwiMurph said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@KiwiMurph how about the semi-final where Chiefs' All Black forward pack were all over Crusaders however couldn't manage to convert any of that dominance into points?
Yep - hence why only Tupaea of that Chiefs backline made the initial ABs squad
And Tupaea blew an easy try in that game, if the Chiefs had a mental weakness causing them to blow easy opportunities then their coaches must also share some blame, since coaches have a massive influence on the player's psychology & mental state, perhaps their preparation wasn't good enough in that area...
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Compare the quality of the tight 5s in the 2022 Super Rugby final and you can see where the game was won and lost.
@KiwiMurph said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Compare the quality of the tight 5s in the 2022 Super Rugby final and you can see where the game was won and lost.
Ah yes, the tired "Rolls-Royce pack" fallacy.
The Crusaders had 2 regular starting All Blacks forwards, Whitelock & Barrett in 2022.
Taylor, Bower in the wider squad but aren't proper int. quality. Both the Blues & Cheifs have more forwards than Crusaders in All Black's setup, yet the anti-Mo'unga/Razor brigade continue to peddle misinformation in attempt to downplay their achievements.
Truth is, Razor gets the absolute most out of his players, especially Mo'unga, I certainly can't wait until he's All Blacks coach after this Foster debacle ends.
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If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
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@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
@Frank True, and last time I looked Mounga was bloody great super No 10, but just generally average at test level. At super level you have super level defences, quite some different to test level. And anyone who thinks Dan Carter , Richie McCaw etc were great test players is because Henry and Hansen explained to them how to play game are unerestimating what makes a great player.
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@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
True, given Robertson doesn't have any real experience at test level, do you think he'll be able to adjust his gameplan to have immediate success at that level? Or do we accept that he'll have a bit of a learning curve when he first takes the reigns?
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@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
True, given Robertson doesn't have any real experience at test level, do you think he'll be able to adjust his gameplan to have immediate success at that level? Or do we accept that he'll have a bit of a learning curve when he first takes the reigns?
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
True, given Robertson doesn't have any real experience at test level, do you think he'll be able to adjust his gameplan to have immediate success at that level? Or do we accept that he'll have a bit of a learning curve when he first takes the reigns?
No idea mate.
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@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy
That's the thing. Test footy is very different to Super Rugby and that goes for the coaching as well.
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@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy
That's the thing. Test footy is very different to Super Rugby and that goes for the coaching as well.
@Victor-Meldrew and just like when players move up, some thrive some don't.
I have no doubt in my mind Robertson would have had made RM a better international level 10 than Foster seems to have, but, we will never know now as RM probably won't play under him at International level and he is also likely at the period right now when he should be at his peak.
That's not to say he would have had success with other players that have struggled to impose themselves as expected either (Akira, Hoskins, Vaai, to name a few)
That being said, again, I don't doubt that we would see improvement across the board for the team if Roberston had been handed the reigns at the end of 2021.
But, we have also seen that it is the coaching team that is key, Foster with better people around him, has shown improvements.
Anywhoo....when does the rugby start?
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@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
True, given Robertson doesn't have any real experience at test level, do you think he'll be able to adjust his gameplan to have immediate success at that level? Or do we accept that he'll have a bit of a learning curve when he first takes the reigns?
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
True, given Robertson doesn't have any real experience at test level, do you think he'll be able to adjust his gameplan to have immediate success at that level? Or do we accept that he'll have a bit of a learning curve when he first takes the reigns?
World Cup winning coaches McQueen, Woodward, White, & Erasmus, didn't have prior international experience.
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@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
True, given Robertson doesn't have any real experience at test level, do you think he'll be able to adjust his gameplan to have immediate success at that level? Or do we accept that he'll have a bit of a learning curve when he first takes the reigns?
World Cup winning coaches McQueen, Woodward, White, & Erasmus, didn't have prior international experience.
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
True, given Robertson doesn't have any real experience at test level, do you think he'll be able to adjust his gameplan to have immediate success at that level? Or do we accept that he'll have a bit of a learning curve when he first takes the reigns?
World Cup winning coaches McQueen, Woodward, White, & Erasmus, didn't have prior international experience.
One of his assistants has already shown himself to be international quality. In fact he made an almost immediate impact on our forward pack. The guy deserves a chance to prove he can rise to the next level
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@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
True, given Robertson doesn't have any real experience at test level, do you think he'll be able to adjust his gameplan to have immediate success at that level? Or do we accept that he'll have a bit of a learning curve when he first takes the reigns?
World Cup winning coaches McQueen, Woodward, White, & Erasmus, didn't have prior international experience.
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
True, given Robertson doesn't have any real experience at test level, do you think he'll be able to adjust his gameplan to have immediate success at that level? Or do we accept that he'll have a bit of a learning curve when he first takes the reigns?
World Cup winning coaches McQueen, Woodward, White, & Erasmus, didn't have prior international experience.
In Erasmus's case. barely even with his own team. Macqueen had only a couple of years with Australia.
The "need international experience" is utter BS, used to explain why the preferred candidate is selected rather than measuring on objective record. It means they could pick Foster over Joseph, despite Foster's terrible record as a coach. Because that was literally all he had that was better.
It has zero to do with how well they do. Or, in the case of Joseph and Foster, how well they have gone on to do.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If we're going to blame coaches for Mo'unga's struggles at test level, maybe we could point the finger at Robertson for having him focus on playing a style that is not conducive to test footy at Super level.
Robertson, last time I checked, is preparing him for Super Rugby, not Test footy.
True, given Robertson doesn't have any real experience at test level, do you think he'll be able to adjust his gameplan to have immediate success at that level? Or do we accept that he'll have a bit of a learning curve when he first takes the reigns?
World Cup winning coaches McQueen, Woodward, White, & Erasmus, didn't have prior international experience.
In Erasmus's case. barely even with his own team. Macqueen had only a couple of years with Australia.
The "need international experience" is utter BS, used to explain why the preferred candidate is selected rather than measuring on objective record. It means they could pick Foster over Joseph, despite Foster's terrible record as a coach. Because that was literally all he had that was better.
It has zero to do with how well they do. Or, in the case of Joseph and Foster, how well they have gone on to do.
If the full CV isn't enough, there are plenty of comments from players, and other top-tier coaches about how forward thinking and innovative Robertson evidently is. It's that whole package that gets people excited.
The international experience argument really seems to be a go-to for Foster apologists - Jake White only coached 1 season with one team (SA U20's), prior to being appointed Springbok coach in 2004 (2007 RWC winner), without even provincial coaching experience. Rod MacQueen had only coached the Brumbies.
Robertson coached Crusaders to 6 Super titles in 6 seasons, Canterbury to 3 provincial titles in 4 seasons, 93% record in 2 seasons with NZ U20's (2nd best of anyone) & won the Chch metro club title with a previously last placed Sumner.
Overall, that's 12 years head coaching experience, so it's fair to say ironically, he's a more experienced head coach than those World Cup winning coaches at the time they got appointed. And at 48, he's not exactly young either. England just appointed Borthwick who's 43. Andy Farrell was also just 43 when he was replaced Schmidt.
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@Victor-Meldrew and just like when players move up, some thrive some don't.
I have no doubt in my mind Robertson would have had made RM a better international level 10 than Foster seems to have, but, we will never know now as RM probably won't play under him at International level and he is also likely at the period right now when he should be at his peak.
That's not to say he would have had success with other players that have struggled to impose themselves as expected either (Akira, Hoskins, Vaai, to name a few)
That being said, again, I don't doubt that we would see improvement across the board for the team if Roberston had been handed the reigns at the end of 2021.
But, we have also seen that it is the coaching team that is key, Foster with better people around him, has shown improvements.
Anywhoo....when does the rugby start?
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
we will never know now as RM probably won't play under him at International level and he is also likely at the period right now when he should be at his peak
But just pure dumb luck that he's leaving just as Robertson is about to become the AB coach - and not just having a sabbatical like everyone else, but getting the fuck outta dodge. Hmmmm.....
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@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
we will never know now as RM probably won't play under him at International level and he is also likely at the period right now when he should be at his peak
But just pure dumb luck that he's leaving just as Robertson is about to become the AB coach - and not just having a sabbatical like everyone else, but getting the fuck outta dodge. Hmmmm.....
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
we will never know now as RM probably won't play under him at International level and he is also likely at the period right now when he should be at his peak
But just pure dumb luck that he's leaving just as Robertson is about to become the AB coach - and not just having a sabbatical like everyone else, but getting the fuck outta dodge. Hmmmm.....
Word around is Joseph maybe the preferred NZR choice as AB coach.
