Foster, Robertson etc
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@BerniesCorner said in Foster, Robertson etc:
It'll be a much much greater loss to NZ Rugby if Razor gets fed up and jumps ship if NZR dither around. Make a decision and move on. Do it now
Now talk yourself through the impacts of that happening.
Go back in time and one of the biggest gripes about Fosters appointment was that the process removed other possible candidates.
You are now asking for Razor to be appointed with no contenders or comparisons to others.
Surely the best thing is to get to a place where contending applicants can state their case and vision THEN make an appointment.
This discussion isn't just Foster v Razor. Others come into play as well.
If Razor is appointed, can Schmidt walk away early? Maybe Schmidt has an out clause and can go and coach Fiji.
The whole thing is may more complex than you make out.@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
You are now asking for Razor to be appointed with no contenders or comparisons to others.
this is something i struggle with, this is not a normal job where you might be able to see someone qualifications but little else and so you interview them to get to know how they implement those qualifications....i find the need to be open to any applicants stange, there isn't some unknown international grade coach out there....the list of people who would be suitable must be very small....we should have been confident enough to actually go out and woo anyone we wanted...not be a wallflower sitting on the side waiting for someone to come to us...thats how you end up with Fozzie
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@Crucial I think you're over complicating this Nobody has Razor's record. Not even close.
Pick him and move on.
I listened for years on here about him not having enough international experience. Twas rubbish.NZ rugby is in a trough at the moment and it's going to get worse in 2024. Act decisively now regarding a very strong candidate.
If they don't pick the 2024 coach now the antithesis of Foster's view is going to happen. There'll be discussions about next years coach throughout 2023@BerniesCorner said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I think you're over complicating this Nobody has Razor's record. Not even close.
Shhh. The 2016 U20 World Championship is not allowed to be mentioned on this thread.....
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I don't get how people can brush of the idea of 'distractions' as if it doesn't exist.
In pro sport an athlete is always looking ahead to where their bread and butter lies. They have agents that will be constantly assessing the future happenings and opportunities.
I'm going to randomly single out an example with some big assumptions. Hoskins Sotutu.
He is in Foster's plans at the moment and let's say that he has assurances that if he maintains form and develops his 'work ons' then he is in the squad. Throw a confirmed coach change in the mix and he is looking over his shoulder big time. That is a distraction. He and his agent have the risk likelihood raised to 'almost certain' and will be looking for other gigs actively.
Let them get on with it and that risk likelihood is possible/probable but the level of urgency is much lower. He will get his agent to line up possible changes awaiting an outcome but will put his own efforts into performance without 'distractions'Edit: I can also guarantee that a player like that would have to deal with comments and questions about fighting for their job. Less charitable commentators would focus on their weaknesses and claim that 'new coach' will get rid of them.
Distractions.
@Crucial I'm not saying there arent distractions, there always will be, I mean the issues in Northland, Auckland, Coromandel, HB & Gisborne will be a distraction, plus a host of other things that people deal with.
Players re-signing, announcing they are going off shore will be distractions, for many in the squad and wider team (inc coaches) this will be thier last chance at the big dance, so this is where they need to rise up and stamp thier names on 2023 and get past the distractions (personal and professional)
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I don't care if Foster's ABs go on to win the RWC with the kind of dominance that would make the 87 lot jealous. The preceeding 3 years have been so absolutely shit and dejecting that a few weeks of magic and a shiny cup won't make up for it. Foster should never have gotten the job in the first place and is lucky to even have this one last chance at redemption.
Hire Razor now and let's just get on with it.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I don't care if Foster's ABs go on to win the RWC with the kind of dominance that would make the 87 lot jealous.
Bookmarked for reference and use in the forthcoming RWC2023 thread later this year.....
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@Crucial I think you're over complicating this Nobody has Razor's record. Not even close.
Pick him and move on.
I listened for years on here about him not having enough international experience. Twas rubbish.NZ rugby is in a trough at the moment and it's going to get worse in 2024. Act decisively now regarding a very strong candidate.
If they don't pick the 2024 coach now the antithesis of Foster's view is going to happen. There'll be discussions about next years coach throughout 2023@BerniesCorner said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial I think you're over complicating this Nobody has Razor's record. Not even close.
Pick him and move on.
I listened for years on here about him not having enough international experience. Twas rubbish.NZ rugby is in a trough at the moment and it's going to get worse in 2024. Act decisively now regarding a very strong candidate.
If they don't pick the 2024 coach now the antithesis of Foster's view is going to happen. There'll be discussions about next years coach throughout 2023So you are basically saying that NZR should wash their hands of this RWC and move on to the next cycle?
Not sure they can really do that and claim that a possible gamble will outweigh existing sponsor agreements.
I don't have an issue with appointing Razor now and setting up the succession, just that it needs to be done in a measured way. If that involves saying to media "feck off, we have a plan in place and everyone that needs to know, knows, now let the team get on with performing" then sure. Trouble is that NZR are not very good at dealing with conflict.
Going through a circus of press that takes away focus from SR (which sponsors pay for and expect to be at the front of the media gaze) isn't the way.
As I keep saying. We do not know all of the implications of such a decision. Stop demanding something as if you know better when you don't know fuck all. -
@BerniesCorner said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial I think you're over complicating this Nobody has Razor's record. Not even close.
Pick him and move on.
I listened for years on here about him not having enough international experience. Twas rubbish.NZ rugby is in a trough at the moment and it's going to get worse in 2024. Act decisively now regarding a very strong candidate.
If they don't pick the 2024 coach now the antithesis of Foster's view is going to happen. There'll be discussions about next years coach throughout 2023So you are basically saying that NZR should wash their hands of this RWC and move on to the next cycle?
Not sure they can really do that and claim that a possible gamble will outweigh existing sponsor agreements.
I don't have an issue with appointing Razor now and setting up the succession, just that it needs to be done in a measured way. If that involves saying to media "feck off, we have a plan in place and everyone that needs to know, knows, now let the team get on with performing" then sure. Trouble is that NZR are not very good at dealing with conflict.
Going through a circus of press that takes away focus from SR (which sponsors pay for and expect to be at the front of the media gaze) isn't the way.
As I keep saying. We do not know all of the implications of such a decision. Stop demanding something as if you know better when you don't know fuck all.@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Stop demanding something as if you know better when you don't know fuck all.
Double negative. Or a perfectly logical statement for this thread.
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@BerniesCorner said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial I think you're over complicating this Nobody has Razor's record. Not even close.
Pick him and move on.
I listened for years on here about him not having enough international experience. Twas rubbish.NZ rugby is in a trough at the moment and it's going to get worse in 2024. Act decisively now regarding a very strong candidate.
If they don't pick the 2024 coach now the antithesis of Foster's view is going to happen. There'll be discussions about next years coach throughout 2023So you are basically saying that NZR should wash their hands of this RWC and move on to the next cycle?
Not sure they can really do that and claim that a possible gamble will outweigh existing sponsor agreements.
I don't have an issue with appointing Razor now and setting up the succession, just that it needs to be done in a measured way. If that involves saying to media "feck off, we have a plan in place and everyone that needs to know, knows, now let the team get on with performing" then sure. Trouble is that NZR are not very good at dealing with conflict.
Going through a circus of press that takes away focus from SR (which sponsors pay for and expect to be at the front of the media gaze) isn't the way.
As I keep saying. We do not know all of the implications of such a decision. Stop demanding something as if you know better when you don't know fuck all.@Crucial Well I know NZR have been fucken useless for far too long
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Crucial I get your point about fair process and fair enough. By what process was the incumbent AB coach chosen?
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I think that no matter how things got to this point it is where it is.
If you announce Razor as taking over after RWC you will undermine Foster. Forget distractions as the reason. Foster would be undermined.
There's a good reason for don't come Monday coach replacements. If you dont do them you leave the incumbent as a dead duck.
NZR either have to grow some huge cahones and sack Foster (pay him out) now or wait and do the process after the RWC. Simple as that.
If they say 'we aren't going to reconsider Foster when his contract expires' they are saying to all the players that they don't think he is up to the job. Why would the players then listen to what he says or believe in the gameplans etc?
NZR do have to tell players and coaches a clear appointment process soon. This is a mess.
They think they did so by confirming him but by Razor making press comments and them keeping quiet they have to confirm all over again. If they are second guessing their previous decision then they have to act decisively, they can't sit on the fence.
To me that is what Foster is saying. "For the good of the team you need to back me fully by declaring I am still a future option (ie process after RWC) or make a change now''.
I think that is fair enough. -
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I never did. You twist and twist like a twisty thing.
Never said you did. I simply asked you a question to clarify your thinking around your comment that "Appointing the next coach, I'd say, has a lot to do with Foster's job."
If it is not his job don't talk about it.
He wasn't talking about the process (which he made very clear wasn't his job) - he was talking about the impact on coaching the ABs which is his job. (You argued, remember, that it has a lot to do with Foster's job)
I'm saying he is telling them he'd like them to choose after the cup and he'd like yet another chance if he/they win this one.
He isn't "telling" them to do anything - he's made it clear it's their choice. He's offering an opinion that, in his view, the downsides of choosing a new coach pre-RWC2023 outweigh the upsides. Should he have done so publicly? Dunno.
And of course he'd want another crack at the job if he won - who wouldn't?
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I never did. You twist and twist like a twisty thing.
Never said you did. I simply asked you a question to clarify your thinking around your comment that "Appointing the next coach, I'd say, has a lot to do with Foster's job."
If it is not his job don't talk about it.
He wasn't talking about the process (which he made very clear wasn't his job) - he was talking about the impact on coaching the ABs which is his job. (You argued, remember, that it has a lot to do with Foster's job)
I'm saying he is telling them he'd like them to choose after the cup and he'd like yet another chance if he/they win this one.
He isn't "telling" them to do anything - he's made it clear it's their choice. He's offering an opinion that, in his view, the downsides of choosing a new coach pre-RWC2023 outweigh the upsides. Should he have done so publicly? Dunno.
And of course he'd want another crack at the job if he won - who wouldn't?
Let us agree to disagree. In my opinion, you extrapolate wildly from what I say and then try to persuade me to accept or deny these extrapolations.
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New Zealand Rugby wants to have contracted the next coaching team – **which won’t include Foster** – by April, a timing that Foster says could be a distraction for the All Blacks’ playing and coaching teams during World Cup year."won't include Foster"?? Where was this said or reported? Or is the senior reporter (Neil Reid?) drinking from a hidden sauce bottle?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I don't care if Foster's ABs go on to win the RWC with the kind of dominance that would make the 87 lot jealous.
Bookmarked for reference and use in the forthcoming RWC2023 thread later this year.....
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I don't care if Foster's ABs go on to win the RWC with the kind of dominance that would make the 87 lot jealous.
Bookmarked for reference and use in the forthcoming RWC2023 thread later this year.....
Yeah you do that. I stand by that 100% and I bet I'm not the only one. I've been vocal here for years about how the RWC is secondary to the ABs overall history and record.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I don't care if Foster's ABs go on to win the RWC with the kind of dominance that would make the 87 lot jealous.
Bookmarked for reference and use in the forthcoming RWC2023 thread later this year.....
Yeah you do that. I stand by that 100% and I bet I'm not the only one. I've been vocal here for years about how the RWC is secondary to the ABs overall history and record.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I don't care if Foster's ABs go on to win the RWC with the kind of dominance that would make the 87 lot jealous.
Bookmarked for reference and use in the forthcoming RWC2023 thread later this year.....
Yeah you do that. I stand by that 100% and I bet I'm not the only one. I've been vocal here for years about how the RWC is secondary to the ABs overall history and record.
RS blocks my posts so won't see this but how can you separate the two?
Don't RWCs form part of the ABs overall history and record? -
A strong coaching record should be the basis of selecting an AB coach. So how did we get to where we are at
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A strong coaching record should be the basis of selecting an AB coach. So how did we get to where we are at
@BerniesCorner said in Foster, Robertson etc:
A strong coaching record should be the basis of selecting an AB coach. So how did we get to where we are at
Because Foster had a strong (Assistant) Coaching record, had good references, had international experience (knew how prep for travel/ tours, last minute contingencies etc worked) and was, originally, the prime candidate. To the point that the other other two viable contenders took the offers they had elsewhere rather than end up a dog with two bones.
The next phase was (by accounts) due to Razor not presenting well at interview.
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@BerniesCorner said in Foster, Robertson etc:
A strong coaching record should be the basis of selecting an AB coach. So how did we get to where we are at
Because Foster had a strong (Assistant) Coaching record, had good references, had international experience (knew how prep for travel/ tours, last minute contingencies etc worked) and was, originally, the prime candidate. To the point that the other other two viable contenders took the offers they had elsewhere rather than end up a dog with two bones.
The next phase was (by accounts) due to Razor not presenting well at interview.
@Crucial was the "not presenting well" just the confidence we've heard mentioned as a negative?
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@Crucial was the "not presenting well" just the confidence we've heard mentioned as a negative?
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial was the "not presenting well" just the confidence we've heard mentioned as a negative?
It's a rumour. Like much in this thread. Gossip that went around saying he flunked the interview/ didn't read the room etc
Has happened to others as well. Deans, Smith.... -
@BerniesCorner said in Foster, Robertson etc:
A strong coaching record should be the basis of selecting an AB coach. So how did we get to where we are at
Because Foster had a strong (Assistant) Coaching record, had good references, had international experience (knew how prep for travel/ tours, last minute contingencies etc worked) and was, originally, the prime candidate. To the point that the other other two viable contenders took the offers they had elsewhere rather than end up a dog with two bones.
The next phase was (by accounts) due to Razor not presenting well at interview.
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
The next phase was (by accounts) due to Razor not presenting well at interview.
Obviously they must have different levels in force at the Crusaders where he clearly must have "presented well at interview".
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@Crucial was the "not presenting well" just the confidence we've heard mentioned as a negative?
@Kiwiwomble might have been the breakdancing, not up to prop standard, apparently!
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/im-smashing-my-tv-former-all-black-unhappy-with-crusaders-coach-robertson/ -
@BerniesCorner said in Foster, Robertson etc:
A strong coaching record should be the basis of selecting an AB coach. So how did we get to where we are at
Because Foster had a strong (Assistant) Coaching record, had good references, had international experience (knew how prep for travel/ tours, last minute contingencies etc worked) and was, originally, the prime candidate. To the point that the other other two viable contenders took the offers they had elsewhere rather than end up a dog with two bones.
The next phase was (by accounts) due to Razor not presenting well at interview.
@Crucial his International experience was limited to his time as Assistant in the ABs wasnt it?
