All Blacks 2023
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@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2023:
How likely is Levi Aumua to being added this year if someone goes down?
He'll need to sign with NZR and one of the NZ Super Rugby franchises first. There's an agreement with Moana Pasifika that the All Blacks won't cap their players if they're also eligibile for one or more of the PI nations.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2023:
How likely is Levi Aumua to being added this year if someone goes down?
He'll need to sign with NZR and one of the NZ Super Rugby franchises first. There's an agreement with Moana Pasifika that the All Blacks won't cap their players if they're also eligibile for one or more of the PI nations.
I would argue the spirit of the agreement was broken last year with the NZ xv selection.
If they want him this year they’ll pick him and ask him to sign with an NZ side in 2024.. then they’ll claim the agreement was never broken
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2023:
How likely is Levi Aumua to being added this year if someone goes down?
He'll need to sign with NZR and one of the NZ Super Rugby franchises first. There's an agreement with Moana Pasifika that the All Blacks won't cap their players if they're also eligibile for one or more of the PI nations.
I would argue the spirit of the agreement was broken last year with the NZ xv selection.
If they want him this year they’ll pick him and ask him to sign with an NZ side in 2024.. then they’ll claim the agreement was never broken
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2023:
How likely is Levi Aumua to being added this year if someone goes down?
He'll need to sign with NZR and one of the NZ Super Rugby franchises first. There's an agreement with Moana Pasifika that the All Blacks won't cap their players if they're also eligibile for one or more of the PI nations.
I would argue the spirit of the agreement was broken last year with the NZ xv selection.
If they want him this year they’ll pick him and ask him to sign with an NZ side in 2024.. then they’ll claim the agreement was never broken
TBH, it doesn't seem so clear cut with Aumua, it doesn't appear that he signed with MP with the expectation that he was going to play for a PI team. If that was the case presumably he would have designated one at the start of the 2022? Also, I think he was re-signed by MP after he was selected for the ABs XV.
I thought there was spots open for PIs who qualify for other nations? Like Leali'ifano and McKee (who I don't think has thrown in his lot with the Cooks yet)?
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Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:I would argue the spirit of the agreement was broken last year with the NZ xv selection.
Disagree. It was made very clear when he was selected for All Blacks XV that that wouldn't have any effect on his PI eligibility, because the ABs XV is a non-capping team.
What I find far more significant is that he hasn't shown any interest in playing for any PI nation he's eligible for. I don't believe for a second that he hasn't been asked.
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Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:I would argue the spirit of the agreement was broken last year with the NZ xv selection.
Disagree. It was made very clear when he was selected for All Blacks XV that that wouldn't have any effect on his PI eligibility, because the ABs XV is a non-capping team.
What I find far more significant is that he hasn't shown any interest in playing for any PI nation he's eligible for. I don't believe for a second that he hasn't been asked.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
Has anyone done the count? Does Aumua fit in under the 8?
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
Has anyone done the count? Does Aumua fit in under the 8?
@Nepia I don't think they ever had 8 players in their squad that weren't eligible to play for PI nations. Not even in MP's first year and since then (due to WR's eligibility rules change), Leali'ifano and Kepu have now also become eligible for Samoa. McClutchie is an obvious example of a player who's not PI eligible. Not sure about Ngakuru.
Aumua doesn't fit under the 8, because he isn't NZ capped and is still eligible for Samoa and Fiji:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
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@Nepia I don't think they ever had 8 players in their squad that weren't eligible to play for PI nations. Not even in MP's first year and since then (due to WR's eligibility rules change), Leali'ifano and Kepu have now also become eligible for Samoa. McClutchie is an obvious example of a player who's not PI eligible. Not sure about Ngakuru.
Aumua doesn't fit under the 8, because he isn't NZ capped and is still eligible for Samoa and Fiji:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I don't think they ever had 8 players in their squad that weren't eligible to play for PI nations. Not even in MP's first year and since then (due to WR's eligibility rules change), Leali'ifano and Kepu have now also become eligible for Samoa. McClutchie is an obvious example of a player who's not PI eligible. Not sure about Ngakuru.
Aumua doesn't fit under the 8, because he isn't NZ capped and is still eligible for Samoa and Fiji:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
That appears to be an unfair restriction on players of PI descent. They could miss out on selection for the team, in favour of say a McClutchie because they're PI. That does not seem to be supportive of PI people.
So is Niko Jones tied to Samoa now?
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I don't think they ever had 8 players in their squad that weren't eligible to play for PI nations. Not even in MP's first year and since then (due to WR's eligibility rules change), Leali'ifano and Kepu have now also become eligible for Samoa. McClutchie is an obvious example of a player who's not PI eligible. Not sure about Ngakuru.
Aumua doesn't fit under the 8, because he isn't NZ capped and is still eligible for Samoa and Fiji:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
That appears to be an unfair restriction on players of PI descent. They could miss out on selection for the team, in favour of say a McClutchie because they're PI. That does not seem to be supportive of PI people.
So is Niko Jones tied to Samoa now?
@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
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@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
Because of this:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
Is it just bad wording?
Aumua has aligned himself into Moana Pasifika (by being a part of the team), so that statement would say he can't play for NZ or Oz.
Or lets say Aumua signed a two year contract with MP at the start of this year and then makes the ABs for the RWC, if MP already have 8 non island eligible players then what happens to his contract?
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
Because of this:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
Is it just bad wording?
Aumua has aligned himself into Moana Pasifika (by being a part of the team), so that statement would say he can't play for NZ or Oz.
Or lets say Aumua signed a two year contract with MP at the start of this year and then makes the ABs for the RWC, if MP already have 8 non island eligible players then what happens to his contract?
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
Because of this:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it just bad wording?Aumua has aligned himself into Moana Pasifika (by being a part of the team), so that statement would say he can't play for NZ or Oz.
Correct, that's the whole idea of MP being a pathway to the PI national sides.
Or lets say Aumua signed a two year contract with MP at the start of this year and then makes the ABs for the RWC,
That would be in breach of that agreement.
... if MP already have 8 non island eligible players then what happens to his contract?
That's a hypothetical situation, because they're unlikely to have 8 non island eligible players. What happens to his contract depends on what's written in the contract, not on that agreement with NZR and the PI unions.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
Because of this:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it just bad wording?Aumua has aligned himself into Moana Pasifika (by being a part of the team), so that statement would say he can't play for NZ or Oz.
Correct, that's the whole idea of MP being a pathway to the PI national sides.
Or lets say Aumua signed a two year contract with MP at the start of this year and then makes the ABs for the RWC,
That would be in breach of that agreement.
... if MP already have 8 non island eligible players then what happens to his contract?
That's a hypothetical situation, because they're unlikely to have 8 non island eligible players. What happens to his contract depends on what's written in the contract, not on that agreement with NZR and the PI unions.
@Stargazer be interesting to see how enforceable those sorts of contracts would be if a player decided to ignore it.
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Probably too early to start thinking about next year, but seeing the rise of Finau this year and Sotutu adding some real grit to his game did make me think...
6 Finau
7 Papalii
8 SotutuLooks nicely balanced eh. Tempted to go with Blackadder at 7, but DP is probably my captain. Throw in Grace, Savea, Gardiner and Lakai, we're going to be back to having a world class trio.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
Probably too early to start thinking about next year, but seeing the rise of Finau this year and Sotutu adding some real grit to his game did make me think...
6 Finau
7 Papalii
8 SotutuLooks nicely balanced eh. Tempted to go with Blackadder at 7, but DP is probably my captain. Throw in Grace, Savea, Gardiner and Lakai, we're going to be back to having a world class trio.
Withy will be one to watch next year, too.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
Because of this:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it just bad wording?Aumua has aligned himself into Moana Pasifika (by being a part of the team), so that statement would say he can't play for NZ or Oz.
Correct, that's the whole idea of MP being a pathway to the PI national sides.
Or lets say Aumua signed a two year contract with MP at the start of this year and then makes the ABs for the RWC,
That would be in breach of that agreement.
... if MP already have 8 non island eligible players then what happens to his contract?
That's a hypothetical situation, because they're unlikely to have 8 non island eligible players. What happens to his contract depends on what's written in the contract, not on that agreement with NZR and the PI unions.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
To go back to my question about whether it's just bad wording: Does this actually mean aligning themselves (e.g. declaring) for PI nations as opposed to aligning themselves with MP? Aumua and Jones are both currently aligned with MP but still eligible for NZ.
@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer be interesting to see how enforceable those sorts of contracts would be if a player decided to ignore it.
You'd hope someone involved in the setting up of MP thought about what would happen contractually if a player was selected for a non PI team? Hope ... :face_with_hand_over_mouth:
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
To go back to my question about whether it's just bad wording: Does this actually mean aligning themselves (e.g. declaring) for PI nations as opposed to aligning themselves with MP? Aumua and Jones are both currently aligned with MP but still eligible for NZ.
@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer be interesting to see how enforceable those sorts of contracts would be if a player decided to ignore it.
You'd hope someone involved in the setting up of MP thought about what would happen contractually if a player was selected for a non PI team? Hope ... :face_with_hand_over_mouth:
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Didn't this discussion take place ages ago? i though that MP clearly stated at the start that they would select a handful of players that didn't necessarily meet their guidelines in order to have a balanced squad. That included players with dual eligibility that hadn't been captured or declared.
We don't know exactly who those players are. -
Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:I would argue the spirit of the agreement was broken last year with the NZ xv selection.
Disagree. It was made very clear when he was selected for All Blacks XV that that wouldn't have any effect on his PI eligibility, because the ABs XV is a non-capping team.
What I find far more significant is that he hasn't shown any interest in playing for any PI nation he's eligible for. I don't believe for a second that he hasn't been asked.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”I can't see that's enforceable.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”I can't see that's enforceable.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”I can't see that's enforceable.
This is the key bit isn’t it?
speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.So maybe he is part of the 20%? I don’t see any problem here.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”I can't see that's enforceable.
This is the key bit isn’t it?
speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.So maybe he is part of the 20%? I don’t see any problem here.
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”I can't see that's enforceable.
This is the key bit isn’t it?
speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.So maybe he is part of the 20%? I don’t see any problem here.
I wasn't speaking of Aumua specifically.
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LF is being aggressively courted by a number of top French clubs for a possibly lucrative deal. He is not signed beyond this year.
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2023:
LF is being aggressively courted by a number of top French clubs for a possibly lucrative deal. He is not signed beyond this year.
I wonder how he is viewed by AB selectors, he'd probably do very well in France...
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@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2023:
LF is being aggressively courted by a number of top French clubs for a possibly lucrative deal. He is not signed beyond this year.
I wonder how he is viewed by AB selectors, he'd probably do very well in France...
