All Blacks 2023
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I don't think they ever had 8 players in their squad that weren't eligible to play for PI nations. Not even in MP's first year and since then (due to WR's eligibility rules change), Leali'ifano and Kepu have now also become eligible for Samoa. McClutchie is an obvious example of a player who's not PI eligible. Not sure about Ngakuru.
Aumua doesn't fit under the 8, because he isn't NZ capped and is still eligible for Samoa and Fiji:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
That appears to be an unfair restriction on players of PI descent. They could miss out on selection for the team, in favour of say a McClutchie because they're PI. That does not seem to be supportive of PI people.
So is Niko Jones tied to Samoa now?
@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
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@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
Because of this:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
Is it just bad wording?
Aumua has aligned himself into Moana Pasifika (by being a part of the team), so that statement would say he can't play for NZ or Oz.
Or lets say Aumua signed a two year contract with MP at the start of this year and then makes the ABs for the RWC, if MP already have 8 non island eligible players then what happens to his contract?
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
Because of this:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
Is it just bad wording?
Aumua has aligned himself into Moana Pasifika (by being a part of the team), so that statement would say he can't play for NZ or Oz.
Or lets say Aumua signed a two year contract with MP at the start of this year and then makes the ABs for the RWC, if MP already have 8 non island eligible players then what happens to his contract?
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
Because of this:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it just bad wording?Aumua has aligned himself into Moana Pasifika (by being a part of the team), so that statement would say he can't play for NZ or Oz.
Correct, that's the whole idea of MP being a pathway to the PI national sides.
Or lets say Aumua signed a two year contract with MP at the start of this year and then makes the ABs for the RWC,
That would be in breach of that agreement.
... if MP already have 8 non island eligible players then what happens to his contract?
That's a hypothetical situation, because they're unlikely to have 8 non island eligible players. What happens to his contract depends on what's written in the contract, not on that agreement with NZR and the PI unions.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
Because of this:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it just bad wording?Aumua has aligned himself into Moana Pasifika (by being a part of the team), so that statement would say he can't play for NZ or Oz.
Correct, that's the whole idea of MP being a pathway to the PI national sides.
Or lets say Aumua signed a two year contract with MP at the start of this year and then makes the ABs for the RWC,
That would be in breach of that agreement.
... if MP already have 8 non island eligible players then what happens to his contract?
That's a hypothetical situation, because they're unlikely to have 8 non island eligible players. What happens to his contract depends on what's written in the contract, not on that agreement with NZR and the PI unions.
@Stargazer be interesting to see how enforceable those sorts of contracts would be if a player decided to ignore it.
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Probably too early to start thinking about next year, but seeing the rise of Finau this year and Sotutu adding some real grit to his game did make me think...
6 Finau
7 Papalii
8 SotutuLooks nicely balanced eh. Tempted to go with Blackadder at 7, but DP is probably my captain. Throw in Grace, Savea, Gardiner and Lakai, we're going to be back to having a world class trio.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
Probably too early to start thinking about next year, but seeing the rise of Finau this year and Sotutu adding some real grit to his game did make me think...
6 Finau
7 Papalii
8 SotutuLooks nicely balanced eh. Tempted to go with Blackadder at 7, but DP is probably my captain. Throw in Grace, Savea, Gardiner and Lakai, we're going to be back to having a world class trio.
Withy will be one to watch next year, too.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Nepia I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
As far as I know, Niko Jones hasn't played for Samoa yet, so is still dual eligible.
PS: don't confuse eligibility to play for a country under World Rugby eligibility rules with an agreement between national unions not to capture players playing for MP (by NZ/AU). Playing for MP doesn't capture for Samoa/Tonga etc. Their eligibility under WR rules doesn't change. It's more a "non-poaching agreement" to ensure that MP is a proper pathway to representing the PI nations.
Because of this:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2023:
Is it just bad wording?Aumua has aligned himself into Moana Pasifika (by being a part of the team), so that statement would say he can't play for NZ or Oz.
Correct, that's the whole idea of MP being a pathway to the PI national sides.
Or lets say Aumua signed a two year contract with MP at the start of this year and then makes the ABs for the RWC,
That would be in breach of that agreement.
... if MP already have 8 non island eligible players then what happens to his contract?
That's a hypothetical situation, because they're unlikely to have 8 non island eligible players. What happens to his contract depends on what's written in the contract, not on that agreement with NZR and the PI unions.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
To go back to my question about whether it's just bad wording: Does this actually mean aligning themselves (e.g. declaring) for PI nations as opposed to aligning themselves with MP? Aumua and Jones are both currently aligned with MP but still eligible for NZ.
@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer be interesting to see how enforceable those sorts of contracts would be if a player decided to ignore it.
You'd hope someone involved in the setting up of MP thought about what would happen contractually if a player was selected for a non PI team? Hope ... :face_with_hand_over_mouth:
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
To go back to my question about whether it's just bad wording: Does this actually mean aligning themselves (e.g. declaring) for PI nations as opposed to aligning themselves with MP? Aumua and Jones are both currently aligned with MP but still eligible for NZ.
@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer be interesting to see how enforceable those sorts of contracts would be if a player decided to ignore it.
You'd hope someone involved in the setting up of MP thought about what would happen contractually if a player was selected for a non PI team? Hope ... :face_with_hand_over_mouth:
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Didn't this discussion take place ages ago? i though that MP clearly stated at the start that they would select a handful of players that didn't necessarily meet their guidelines in order to have a balanced squad. That included players with dual eligibility that hadn't been captured or declared.
We don't know exactly who those players are. -
Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:I would argue the spirit of the agreement was broken last year with the NZ xv selection.
Disagree. It was made very clear when he was selected for All Blacks XV that that wouldn't have any effect on his PI eligibility, because the ABs XV is a non-capping team.
What I find far more significant is that he hasn't shown any interest in playing for any PI nation he's eligible for. I don't believe for a second that he hasn't been asked.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”I can't see that's enforceable.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”I can't see that's enforceable.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”I can't see that's enforceable.
This is the key bit isn’t it?
speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.So maybe he is part of the 20%? I don’t see any problem here.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”I can't see that's enforceable.
This is the key bit isn’t it?
speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.So maybe he is part of the 20%? I don’t see any problem here.
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
Speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.
“What we’ve done is we’ve used the New Zealand model and flipped it on its head,” Senio, who played one test for the All Blacks in 2005, said.
“So, 80 percent of the team have to be eligible and/or have played for Samoa or Tonga and/or Fiji – any of the Pasifika teams.
“For those who are going to be aligning themselves into Moana Pasifika, you can’t play for the All Blacks or Australia.”I can't see that's enforceable.
This is the key bit isn’t it?
speaking on The Breakdown on Monday, Moana Pasifika general manager Kevin Senio said 80 percent of the players on the franchise’s roster will need to eligible or available to play for Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or any other Pacific nation.
That would leave eight players within the franchise’s 38-man squad available to play for the All Blacks, Wallabies or any other test nation.So maybe he is part of the 20%? I don’t see any problem here.
I wasn't speaking of Aumua specifically.
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LF is being aggressively courted by a number of top French clubs for a possibly lucrative deal. He is not signed beyond this year.
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2023:
LF is being aggressively courted by a number of top French clubs for a possibly lucrative deal. He is not signed beyond this year.
I wonder how he is viewed by AB selectors, he'd probably do very well in France...
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@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2023:
LF is being aggressively courted by a number of top French clubs for a possibly lucrative deal. He is not signed beyond this year.
I wonder how he is viewed by AB selectors, he'd probably do very well in France...
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So, for some reason I can't help but feel weird about the current coaching setup given the saviour is taking over post world cup. How do you think this impacts Fozzie and the current crop? I honestly hope it gives them that extra motivation to say fuck you to all who doubt them or don't believe they are capable. I guess anything but winning the cup will be deemed a failure by his reign.
I wonder if Razor is secretly hoping they lose the WC as it would make his job a little harder taking over the world champions and trying to retain it. Thoughts?
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So, for some reason I can't help but feel weird about the current coaching setup given the saviour is taking over post world cup. How do you think this impacts Fozzie and the current crop? I honestly hope it gives them that extra motivation to say fuck you to all who doubt them or don't believe they are capable. I guess anything but winning the cup will be deemed a failure by his reign.
I wonder if Razor is secretly hoping they lose the WC as it would make his job a little harder taking over the world champions and trying to retain it. Thoughts?
@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2023:
I guess anything but winning the cup will be deemed a failure by his reign.
I wonder if Razor is secretly hoping they lose the WC as it would make his job a little harder taking over the world champions and trying to retain it.First point, Foster's reign, even if he wins the cup is a failure. He has broken too many long-held records of the ABs, once proudly held and never to get back. The ABs under him have been poor and we have seen no real change since late Hansen. Getting the cup would be awesome, but that doesn't wipe out the rest of the results.
Second, no way would Razor wish that, he's a true ABs man - that's pretty low.
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So, for some reason I can't help but feel weird about the current coaching setup given the saviour is taking over post world cup. How do you think this impacts Fozzie and the current crop? I honestly hope it gives them that extra motivation to say fuck you to all who doubt them or don't believe they are capable. I guess anything but winning the cup will be deemed a failure by his reign.
I wonder if Razor is secretly hoping they lose the WC as it would make his job a little harder taking over the world champions and trying to retain it. Thoughts?
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@chimoaus On one of his most recent interviews Scott says he will be travelling to France as a spectator. In that case you would wonder how closely he is working with the squad.
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2023:
@chimoaus On one of his most recent interviews Scott says he will be travelling to France as a spectator. In that case you would wonder how closely he is working with the squad.
Not at all I hope, he needs to butt out until 29 October, or realistically the 15th
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@nostrildamus Financially it may make sense, so early in his All Black career which looks so promising it wouldn't.
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus Financially it may make sense, so early in his All Black career which looks so promising it wouldn't.
I think LF will be right back in AB contention come 2024 if his form holds up.
Pretty Sure Razor would have a word in his ear to let him know if he has an AB chance after the WC.
