All Blacks 2023
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@ACT-Crusader yeah was happy to see that, but as some buzz killer pointed out about Finau, it's probably highly likely he won't see much, if any gametime. He looks to have bulked up well, yet still mobile and busy. As long as that hasn't caused him other issues that lead to him being injured all the time, he looks the goods.
Hope I'm wrong about Fozzie.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@ACT-Crusader yeah was happy to see that, but as some buzz killer pointed out about Finau, it's probably highly likely he won't see much, if any gametime. He looks to have bulked up well, yet still mobile and busy. As long as that hasn't caused him other issues that lead to him being injured all the time, he looks the goods.
Hope I'm wrong about Fozzie.
I was at New Plymouth at the game where Ryan said he really caught their eye, he was bloody good, and worked like hell off the ball. I still like he's such a good lineout target too. I still wonder what game he will get a lot of time in to push claims, but also think Jacobson will meybe get a bit of time at 6?
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:
@ACT-Crusader yeah was happy to see that, but as some buzz killer pointed out about Finau, it's probably highly likely he won't see much, if any gametime. He looks to have bulked up well, yet still mobile and busy. As long as that hasn't caused him other issues that lead to him being injured all the time, he looks the goods.
Hope I'm wrong about Fozzie.
I’m not so sure…Jason Ryan specifically name checked Finau when interviewed and said he stood up and did what they were looking for when under the pump against the Reds.
They did throw Newell and De Groot in to the bear pit of an away game in South Africa and here we are…
The fact that Hoskins and Akira got launched reinforces that they really weren’t happy with their style and are looking for a bit more perspiration rather than inspiration.
Head down arse up, strong shoulders.
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
The fact that Hoskins and Akira got launched reinforces that they really weren’t happy with their style and are looking for a bit more perspiration rather than inspiration.
Head down arse up, strong shoulders.
And that makes me happy if attitude and work rate are big pointers to how they selecting teams, as you say perhaps Akira and Hoskins are more highlight packge players than 80 min grunt men? One of reasons I such a fan of players like Sam Cane, Jacobson etc, they just never out of game, putting rock hard shoulders on, and importantly working their arse off to get to where they make a difference. They get off ground real quick after tacle etc, and put themselves in a poistion to still make a difference whether it making another tackle, of turning players into defence.
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@Bones that was me!
Because I am horribly pessimistic that the order at 6 is Barrett and then the lessor Frizzell
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones that was me!
Because I am horribly pessimistic that the order at 6 is Barrett and then the lessor Frizzell
Shannon's renting out his house?
Six loose forwards and five locks suggests to me that you're probably right. They clearly want their 6 to be a good lineout option and a "tight 6".
My guess - and it's just a guess - is they're hoping Blackadder gets fit and they'll plan take Barrett and Frizell as their 6s, Cane and Paps as 7s, Savea and Jacobson as 8s and Blackadder as their utility/bench man who can cover all three. Meanwhile, Ryan gets a good look at Finau - and just maybe he pushes out Frizell.
Possibility of Cullen Grace putting a bit of pressure on Jacobson's position might also be worth keeping an eye on.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones that was me!
Because I am horribly pessimistic that the order at 6 is Barrett and then the lessor Frizzell
Shannon's renting out his house?
Six loose forwards and five locks suggests to me that you're probably right. They clearly want their 6 to be a good lineout option and a "tight 6".
My guess - and it's just a guess - is they're hoping Blackadder gets fit and they'll plan take Barrett and Frizell as their 6s, Cane and Paps as 7s, Savea and Jacobson as 8s and Blackadder as their utility/bench man who can cover all three. Meanwhile, Ryan gets a good look at Finau - and just maybe he pushes out Frizell.
Possibility of Cullen Grace putting a bit of pressure on Jacobson's position might also be worth keeping an eye on.
@Chris-B the 5 locks selection will be about covering Whitelock as well.
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@Chris-B the 5 locks selection will be about covering Whitelock as well.
@ACT-Crusader Yeah - they'll need a Plan B at 6, because Scott is clearly our third lock - and there's a couple of oldish guys ahead of him.
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Am I the only one to find Newell lucky ?
The guy has not played a single game this year and gets in. Jager would have been a better choice IMO.@cgrant said in All Blacks 2023:
Am I the only one to find Newell lucky ?
The guy has not played a single game this year and gets in. Jager would have been a better choice IMO.They must have the inside deck on his injury.
Any young fella who can go to South Africa
and push the bomb squads heads up their own arses has credit in the bank.Such a specialist position they want him in around the squad for the year. I imagine his name is already in pen for the RWC.
Ryan has been working with him for years in Canterbury.
As an aside. The interview his father gave when his boy was selected is one of the most “hit you in the feels” things I’ve ever seen. I welled up watching it.
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@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
The fact that Hoskins and Akira got launched reinforces that they really weren’t happy with their style and are looking for a bit more perspiration rather than inspiration.
Head down arse up, strong shoulders.
And that makes me happy if attitude and work rate are big pointers to how they selecting teams, as you say perhaps Akira and Hoskins are more highlight packge players than 80 min grunt men? One of reasons I such a fan of players like Sam Cane, Jacobson etc, they just never out of game, putting rock hard shoulders on, and importantly working their arse off to get to where they make a difference. They get off ground real quick after tacle etc, and put themselves in a poistion to still make a difference whether it making another tackle, of turning players into defence.
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
The fact that Hoskins and Akira got launched reinforces that they really weren’t happy with their style and are looking for a bit more perspiration rather than inspiration.
Head down arse up, strong shoulders.
And that makes me happy if attitude and work rate are big pointers to how they selecting teams, as you say perhaps Akira and Hoskins are more highlight packge players than 80 min grunt men? One of reasons I such a fan of players like Sam Cane, Jacobson etc, they just never out of game, putting rock hard shoulders on, and importantly working their arse off to get to where they make a difference. They get off ground real quick after tacle etc, and put themselves in a poistion to still make a difference whether it making another tackle, of turning players into defence.
Ryan strikes me as a no bullshit kind of guy.
I reckon he he holds plenty of sway with Foster and tells him exactly who he wants and who won’t cut the mustard. He doesn’t seem political.
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The loosies selections make some sense to me. They’ve picked the same type of player as the backup.
Frizell, Finau
Cane, Paps
Ardie, Jacobson (Rodney-style 8s)In the midfield, same story. Ennor is to Ioane as MacLeod is to Jordie. ALB is clearly going to be wearing 22 or 23.
I think that’s why Clarke stays (similarity to Leicester) while Narawa and Telea have similar skill sets.
That leaves Stevenson against Jordan as we know one of the 10s will either be starting at 15 or covering it. (I personally would select Stevenson ahead of Clarke btw)
So, from a positive point of view, they appear to have a very clear plan of what they want to do and have selected players to do that.
@Chris-B I think Grace would be there in place of Finau on that basis?
The issue will be that the halfbacks, 10s, and props don’t quite so clearly match (to me at least).
DeGroot, Taylor, Lomax
BBBR, Barrett/Whitelock
Barrett/Frizell, Cane, Savea
Smith, Mo’unga
LF, Jordie, Rieko, Telea/Jordan, Barrett/JordanBench is where it gets interesting for me, as we really need Jordan on the field, so who wears 22/23 (one of them is ALB)? The rest is pretty set, but a player like Finau may get their chance there, especially if Barrett starts on the blindside.
I think we should also use Dmac so the big question is whether they’ll pull the trigger and drop Barrett. My guess is no.
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@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
The fact that Hoskins and Akira got launched reinforces that they really weren’t happy with their style and are looking for a bit more perspiration rather than inspiration.
Head down arse up, strong shoulders.
And that makes me happy if attitude and work rate are big pointers to how they selecting teams, as you say perhaps Akira and Hoskins are more highlight packge players than 80 min grunt men? One of reasons I such a fan of players like Sam Cane, Jacobson etc, they just never out of game, putting rock hard shoulders on, and importantly working their arse off to get to where they make a difference. They get off ground real quick after tacle etc, and put themselves in a poistion to still make a difference whether it making another tackle, of turning players into defence.
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
as you say perhaps Akira and Hoskins are more highlight packge players than 80 min grunt men?
Sotutu has had an inconsistent year. Not surprised he was dropped.
The fiction around Akira not doing the hard work is so far off the mark. For years he's topped Blues stats and since returning from injury he's been a defensive and clear out machine this year. Unfortunately he has not been able to show much on attack in 2023 but that's more of a team issue
Steve's takes are very simplistic. Split players into players he likes and dislikes and repeat dumb cliches. Very dull.
Personally on the loosies I would have picked the same group but swapping Akira for Shannon
What do you think of Shannon's workrate this year? I thought at times he was lucky to make the Highlanders side as other loosies were putting in real effort and SF seemed to half arse it ever since signing overseas. His contact work in particular was down on his usual standards. At least in previous years he's had good SR form
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I actually don't mind McLeod, we are so short of decent options at 12. Can't see him making the cup team, but experience might do him good.
I'm sure he will be replaced by Quinn Tupaea whenever he is fit again.
Finau I am pleasantly surprised with, he could be the answer at 6 we have long been searching for, hope he gets some gametime. -
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
as you say perhaps Akira and Hoskins are more highlight packge players than 80 min grunt men?
Sotutu has had an inconsistent year. Not surprised he was dropped.
The fiction around Akira not doing the hard work is so far off the mark. For years he's topped Blues stats and since returning from injury he's been a defensive and clear out machine this year. Unfortunately he has not been able to show much on attack in 2023 but that's more of a team issue
Steve's takes are very simplistic. Split players into players he likes and dislikes and repeat dumb cliches. Very dull.
Personally on the loosies I would have picked the same group but swapping Akira for Shannon
What do you think of Shannon's workrate this year? I thought at times he was lucky to make the Highlanders side as other loosies were putting in real effort and SF seemed to half arse it ever since signing overseas. His contact work in particular was down on his usual standards. At least in previous years he's had good SR form
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
as you say perhaps Akira and Hoskins are more highlight packge players than 80 min grunt men?
Sotutu has had an inconsistent year. Not surprised he was dropped.
The fiction around Akira not doing the hard work is so far off the mark. For years he's topped Blues stats and since returning from injury he's been a defensive and clear out machine this year. Unfortunately he has not been able to show much on attack in 2023 but that's more of a team issue
Steve's takes are very simplistic. Split players into players he likes and dislikes and repeat dumb cliches. Very dull.
Personally on the loosies I would have picked the same group but swapping Akira for Shannon
What do you think of Shannon's workrate this year? I thought at times he was lucky to make the Highlanders side as other loosies were putting in real effort and SF seemed to half arse it ever since signing overseas. His contact work in particular was down on his usual standards. At least in previous years he's had good SR form
Frizell must do some things that we don’t see (maybe they have stats on hard carries or dominant pick/gos or something) as I wouldn’t have him there. However, they see him and Finau as the same sort of player, so I mostly get the selection - I’m just not convinced he brings that heavy of a shoulder.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
as you say perhaps Akira and Hoskins are more highlight packge players than 80 min grunt men?
Sotutu has had an inconsistent year. Not surprised he was dropped.
The fiction around Akira not doing the hard work is so far off the mark. For years he's topped Blues stats and since returning from injury he's been a defensive and clear out machine this year. Unfortunately he has not been able to show much on attack in 2023 but that's more of a team issue
Steve's takes are very simplistic. Split players into players he likes and dislikes and repeat dumb cliches. Very dull.
Personally on the loosies I would have picked the same group but swapping Akira for Shannon
What do you think of Shannon's workrate this year? I thought at times he was lucky to make the Highlanders side as other loosies were putting in real effort and SF seemed to half arse it ever since signing overseas. His contact work in particular was down on his usual standards. At least in previous years he's had good SR form
Frizell must do some things that we don’t see (maybe they have stats on hard carries or dominant pick/gos or something) as I wouldn’t have him there. However, they see him and Finau as the same sort of player, so I mostly get the selection - I’m just not convinced he brings that heavy of a shoulder.
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
as you say perhaps Akira and Hoskins are more highlight packge players than 80 min grunt men?
Sotutu has had an inconsistent year. Not surprised he was dropped.
The fiction around Akira not doing the hard work is so far off the mark. For years he's topped Blues stats and since returning from injury he's been a defensive and clear out machine this year. Unfortunately he has not been able to show much on attack in 2023 but that's more of a team issue
Steve's takes are very simplistic. Split players into players he likes and dislikes and repeat dumb cliches. Very dull.
Personally on the loosies I would have picked the same group but swapping Akira for Shannon
What do you think of Shannon's workrate this year? I thought at times he was lucky to make the Highlanders side as other loosies were putting in real effort and SF seemed to half arse it ever since signing overseas. His contact work in particular was down on his usual standards. At least in previous years he's had good SR form
Frizell must do some things that we don’t see (maybe they have stats on hard carries or dominant pick/gos or something) as I wouldn’t have him there. However, they see him and Finau as the same sort of player, so I mostly get the selection - I’m just not convinced he brings that heavy of a shoulder.
Both from Tonga? I hope Finau isn't similar to Frizell in the black jersey.
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I also think that Frizell is very lucky to make the squad, but he's not the only player.
Ryan says their 6s are both big, physical players but they need to get more out of them.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
I also think that Frizell is very lucky to make the squad, but he's not the only player.
Ryan says their 6s are both big, physical players but they need to get more out of them.
Hard to know for sure, but it seems Weber going off shore counted against him but it didn't count against Shannon
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yeah, frizell is weird one, not only has he got a history of failing to step up in the black jersey...at most he has tending to not shit the bed....but this year he was fighting to keep his highlanders jersey from 22 year old and some of us thought withy provided more when he played
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The loosies selections make some sense to me. They’ve picked the same type of player as the backup.
Frizell, Finau
Cane, Paps
Ardie, Jacobson (Rodney-style 8s)In the midfield, same story. Ennor is to Ioane as MacLeod is to Jordie. ALB is clearly going to be wearing 22 or 23.
I think that’s why Clarke stays (similarity to Leicester) while Narawa and Telea have similar skill sets.
That leaves Stevenson against Jordan as we know one of the 10s will either be starting at 15 or covering it. (I personally would select Stevenson ahead of Clarke btw)
So, from a positive point of view, they appear to have a very clear plan of what they want to do and have selected players to do that.
@Chris-B I think Grace would be there in place of Finau on that basis?
The issue will be that the halfbacks, 10s, and props don’t quite so clearly match (to me at least).
DeGroot, Taylor, Lomax
BBBR, Barrett/Whitelock
Barrett/Frizell, Cane, Savea
Smith, Mo’unga
LF, Jordie, Rieko, Telea/Jordan, Barrett/JordanBench is where it gets interesting for me, as we really need Jordan on the field, so who wears 22/23 (one of them is ALB)? The rest is pretty set, but a player like Finau may get their chance there, especially if Barrett starts on the blindside.
I think we should also use Dmac so the big question is whether they’ll pull the trigger and drop Barrett. My guess is no.
@gt12 I think most of the back decisions revolve around what they plan to do with Beauden.
My thinking is that he's the incumbent 15 - and that's where he will start off. If he's not there, in my mind he won't make the 23 because Mo'unga and DMac have both very clearly been much better at 10 than him this year.
Question then is whether they think he's good enough to cover 10 in case of injury - because that might dictate whether DMac is on the bench, or not (remember, I'm firmly of the opinion that Richie will be our starting 10). And I'm not a fan of switching out your 10 unless they're having a 'mare or get injured.
Also possible that instead of Beaudy at the back, they decide to play DMac there, which gives better cover at 10 (and possibly a better - but shorter - fullback).
An alternative scenario is that they drop the idea of a first five at fullback, shift Jordan there and Telea takes the right wing. Stevenson comes firmly into that equation. I'd like to see them try this at least once in the RC.
I didn't expect them to drop Clarke, because they invested so much in him last year - I'm sure Leicester will get a chance on the left to show he can cut it there now, but maybe not first up.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
I also think that Frizell is very lucky to make the squad, but he's not the only player.
Ryan says their 6s are both big, physical players but they need to get more out of them.
Hard to know for sure, but it seems Weber going off shore counted against him but it didn't count against Shannon
@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
I also think that Frizell is very lucky to make the squad, but he's not the only player.
Ryan says their 6s are both big, physical players but they need to get more out of them.
Hard to know for sure, but it seems Weber going off shore counted against him but it didn't count against Shannon
I might be off the mark but perhaps they see Weber as a player that can come in to fill a gap but not necessarily the game style they actually want. Keep him playing in ABXV so he’s fit should the call up come.
I like Christie as an impact style player but I also think there are some flaws that need to be ironed out.
Roigard has all the tools but will be a case of whether he can step up
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@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2023:
I also think that Frizell is very lucky to make the squad, but he's not the only player.
Ryan says their 6s are both big, physical players but they need to get more out of them.
Hard to know for sure, but it seems Weber going off shore counted against him but it didn't count against Shannon
I might be off the mark but perhaps they see Weber as a player that can come in to fill a gap but not necessarily the game style they actually want. Keep him playing in ABXV so he’s fit should the call up come.
I like Christie as an impact style player but I also think there are some flaws that need to be ironed out.
Roigard has all the tools but will be a case of whether he can step up
Yeah and there might be situations where they want to see someone play in AB xv with specific instructions, rather than be injury cover in the main squad.
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yeah, frizell is weird one, not only has he got a history of failing to step up in the black jersey...at most he has tending to not shit the bed....but this year he was fighting to keep his highlanders jersey from 22 year old and some of us thought withy provided more when he played
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
yeah, frizell is weird one, not only has he got a history of failing to step up in the black jersey...at most he has tending to not shit the bed....but this year he was fighting to keep his highlanders jersey from 22 year old and some of us thought withy provided more when he played
Having Finau in there (same type of players as Frizell - yet this season has shown to be much more effective) makes Frizell even more of a foodbill for the squad.
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Disappointed that Stevenson isn't in there as either wing or FB (he can fill either easily). Him and DMac combined have dominated the kicking game in super rugby this year and I believe that Stevenson has been a key cog in helping Dmac be in the form he's in and play the way he's been able to play this season.
Basic Chiefs tactics has been to kick the ball downfield as they're always going to win the game of forec-back with SS and Dmac's distance and then wait for a poor kick from the opposition to either get good field position or counter off. Hasn't been pretty but has been effective.
I would think this style of game would be suited to the pressure cooker atmosphere of RWC finals footy. However I can just see RM, CC, Talea and Jordan trotting out to the WC 1/4's and semis - a tactical kicking combination that ensures we play as much of the game as possible in our own half. With BB coming off the bench so he can chip-kick from his own 22...
