All Blacks 2023

Victor Meldrew

@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:

He certainly has a challenge ahead for next year. How well does a super coach go with a less than super bunch of players in some positions - hooker OK, props good, locks porr, loosies always good, nines looking hopeful, tens looking bare, midfield OK, wings and outside backs fine IMO

The front row, loosies, midfield and back three all look good and the only real issues are at lock, 10 and 9. Robertson will have Scooter & DMac available and Roigard looks a good bet at 9. He needs to be given time to build depth, but has a pretty solid base to work from, I reckon.

An AB coach has access to all the talent that NZ rugby has to offer. If a super coach can't get the best out of them, then it's either the coach isn't actually all that super or it's the talent pool which is the issue. Either way it can't be allowed to fester.

Victor Meldrew

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:

@frugby four years is a long time in NZ rugby.

Let's hope it's used wisely.

Machpants

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:

@frugby four years is a long time in NZ rugby.

Let's hope it's used wisely.

Can't be worse that the last 4. I fucking hope!

Victor Meldrew

@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:

@frugby four years is a long time in NZ rugby.

Let's hope it's used wisely.

Can't be worse that the last 4. I fucking hope!

I really wouldn't have a problem with some shit results if it jolts NZ rugby into thinking about the deeper issues like player development rather than simply changing the Head Coach.

Bones

@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:

i really hope he doesnt just walk back into the crusaders/AB's, Id hope over 4 years we have the next our guys coming through, come back and earn it...great? come back and handed it because no one else has stepped up? worrying

I don't necessarily think it is as simple as that, but if you look at the current 10s, who will be the ones we are looking at over the next four years, I don't have any great conviction in any of them.

Blues:
Perofeta - Is he a 10? Is he good enough anyway?
Sullivan - Quality potential, but again, is he a 10?
Cashmore - Not seen enough, but unlikely to be that good

Chiefs:
McKenzie - Will get first crack, and will in theory be the man in the interim, but how will he go when he loses a yard of pace... massively reliant on it
Ioane - No
Trask - Don't think so

Hurricanes:
Morgan - No
Cameron - Maybe? Hasn't really done it yet, perhaps next year is his year, but hardly strikes confidence, and isn't actually that young

Crusaders:
Burke - Potential, needs a big Super season, then we will see. Could be a squad option, but doesn't give me the vibe of a top All Black 10
Kemara - The fact the Chiefs didn't really want him might well speak volumes
Reihana - No

Highlanders:
Millar - Similar to Burke, but obviously less proven, and can't stay fit
Faleafaga - Reads the game exceptionally well, and is probably the best running 10 of any of the real up and comers, but his kicking game is massively lacking

Obviously there are Jacombs and others, but we are talking about a guy to be the All Black first five. Look at the recent All Black 10s, then look at those ones. Think it is entirely possible nobody fills the void, Mo'unga comes back, and has a good Super season, and fairly waltzs back in.

David Havili.

tubbyj

David Havili at 10 is not inconceivable. He is currently 28, has a big boot and has experience at 15 and 12 at all levels. He has already had to adapt to a position change playing 12 for the Crusaders which required him to stand alot at first receiver in both attack and defence as they have liked to use Mounga's ability to beat players out wide. He is no goal kicker but if Jordie Barret continues at 12 then a combination of Havili and Barret would not be a huge shock.

booboo

@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks 2023:

Surely a coach is a good coach because he also has the ability to spot talent etc. The only time I can remember nz scratching around was when both Gallagher and ridge left at the same time. I’ve no doubt a 10 will turn up somewhere and Robertson will pick them. We always develop talent, have faith people. I’d be more worried about 4 & 5 then 10.

Hmm... the days of Mannix and Bachop too easily forgotten.

frugby

@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:

@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:

i really hope he doesnt just walk back into the crusaders/AB's, Id hope over 4 years we have the next our guys coming through, come back and earn it...great? come back and handed it because no one else has stepped up? worrying

I don't necessarily think it is as simple as that, but if you look at the current 10s, who will be the ones we are looking at over the next four years, I don't have any great conviction in any of them.

Blues:
Perofeta - Is he a 10? Is he good enough anyway?
Sullivan - Quality potential, but again, is he a 10?
Cashmore - Not seen enough, but unlikely to be that good

Chiefs:
McKenzie - Will get first crack, and will in theory be the man in the interim, but how will he go when he loses a yard of pace... massively reliant on it
Ioane - No
Trask - Don't think so

Hurricanes:
Morgan - No
Cameron - Maybe? Hasn't really done it yet, perhaps next year is his year, but hardly strikes confidence, and isn't actually that young

Crusaders:
Burke - Potential, needs a big Super season, then we will see. Could be a squad option, but doesn't give me the vibe of a top All Black 10
Kemara - The fact the Chiefs didn't really want him might well speak volumes
Reihana - No

Highlanders:
Millar - Similar to Burke, but obviously less proven, and can't stay fit
Faleafaga - Reads the game exceptionally well, and is probably the best running 10 of any of the real up and comers, but his kicking game is massively lacking

Obviously there are Jacombs and others, but we are talking about a guy to be the All Black first five. Look at the recent All Black 10s, then look at those ones. Think it is entirely possible nobody fills the void, Mo'unga comes back, and has a good Super season, and fairly waltzs back in.

David Havili.

Absolutely would not discount it.

Bones

@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:

@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:

@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:

i really hope he doesnt just walk back into the crusaders/AB's, Id hope over 4 years we have the next our guys coming through, come back and earn it...great? come back and handed it because no one else has stepped up? worrying

I don't necessarily think it is as simple as that, but if you look at the current 10s, who will be the ones we are looking at over the next four years, I don't have any great conviction in any of them.

Blues:
Perofeta - Is he a 10? Is he good enough anyway?
Sullivan - Quality potential, but again, is he a 10?
Cashmore - Not seen enough, but unlikely to be that good

Chiefs:
McKenzie - Will get first crack, and will in theory be the man in the interim, but how will he go when he loses a yard of pace... massively reliant on it
Ioane - No
Trask - Don't think so

Hurricanes:
Morgan - No
Cameron - Maybe? Hasn't really done it yet, perhaps next year is his year, but hardly strikes confidence, and isn't actually that young

Crusaders:
Burke - Potential, needs a big Super season, then we will see. Could be a squad option, but doesn't give me the vibe of a top All Black 10
Kemara - The fact the Chiefs didn't really want him might well speak volumes
Reihana - No

Highlanders:
Millar - Similar to Burke, but obviously less proven, and can't stay fit
Faleafaga - Reads the game exceptionally well, and is probably the best running 10 of any of the real up and comers, but his kicking game is massively lacking

Obviously there are Jacombs and others, but we are talking about a guy to be the All Black first five. Look at the recent All Black 10s, then look at those ones. Think it is entirely possible nobody fills the void, Mo'unga comes back, and has a good Super season, and fairly waltzs back in.

David Havili.

Absolutely would not discount it.

Chuck him in the highlanders list.

frugby

@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:

@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:

@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:

@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:

i really hope he doesnt just walk back into the crusaders/AB's, Id hope over 4 years we have the next our guys coming through, come back and earn it...great? come back and handed it because no one else has stepped up? worrying

I don't necessarily think it is as simple as that, but if you look at the current 10s, who will be the ones we are looking at over the next four years, I don't have any great conviction in any of them.

Blues:
Perofeta - Is he a 10? Is he good enough anyway?
Sullivan - Quality potential, but again, is he a 10?
Cashmore - Not seen enough, but unlikely to be that good

Chiefs:
McKenzie - Will get first crack, and will in theory be the man in the interim, but how will he go when he loses a yard of pace... massively reliant on it
Ioane - No
Trask - Don't think so

Hurricanes:
Morgan - No
Cameron - Maybe? Hasn't really done it yet, perhaps next year is his year, but hardly strikes confidence, and isn't actually that young

Crusaders:
Burke - Potential, needs a big Super season, then we will see. Could be a squad option, but doesn't give me the vibe of a top All Black 10
Kemara - The fact the Chiefs didn't really want him might well speak volumes
Reihana - No

Highlanders:
Millar - Similar to Burke, but obviously less proven, and can't stay fit
Faleafaga - Reads the game exceptionally well, and is probably the best running 10 of any of the real up and comers, but his kicking game is massively lacking

Obviously there are Jacombs and others, but we are talking about a guy to be the All Black first five. Look at the recent All Black 10s, then look at those ones. Think it is entirely possible nobody fills the void, Mo'unga comes back, and has a good Super season, and fairly waltzs back in.

David Havili.

Absolutely would not discount it.

Chuck him in the highlanders list.

Him and Ennor as rotating 10s.

Bones

@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:

@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:

@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:

@Bones said in All Blacks 2023:

@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:

i really hope he doesnt just walk back into the crusaders/AB's, Id hope over 4 years we have the next our guys coming through, come back and earn it...great? come back and handed it because no one else has stepped up? worrying

I don't necessarily think it is as simple as that, but if you look at the current 10s, who will be the ones we are looking at over the next four years, I don't have any great conviction in any of them.

Blues:
Perofeta - Is he a 10? Is he good enough anyway?
Sullivan - Quality potential, but again, is he a 10?
Cashmore - Not seen enough, but unlikely to be that good

Chiefs:
McKenzie - Will get first crack, and will in theory be the man in the interim, but how will he go when he loses a yard of pace... massively reliant on it
Ioane - No
Trask - Don't think so

Hurricanes:
Morgan - No
Cameron - Maybe? Hasn't really done it yet, perhaps next year is his year, but hardly strikes confidence, and isn't actually that young

Crusaders:
Burke - Potential, needs a big Super season, then we will see. Could be a squad option, but doesn't give me the vibe of a top All Black 10
Kemara - The fact the Chiefs didn't really want him might well speak volumes
Reihana - No

Highlanders:
Millar - Similar to Burke, but obviously less proven, and can't stay fit
Faleafaga - Reads the game exceptionally well, and is probably the best running 10 of any of the real up and comers, but his kicking game is massively lacking

Obviously there are Jacombs and others, but we are talking about a guy to be the All Black first five. Look at the recent All Black 10s, then look at those ones. Think it is entirely possible nobody fills the void, Mo'unga comes back, and has a good Super season, and fairly waltzs back in.

David Havili.

Absolutely would not discount it.

Chuck him in the highlanders list.

Him and Ennor as rotating 10s.

You took it too far. 🤮

mariner4life

A comment, if I may

IMO the past 7 days is the best the ABs have looked since 2015. Everything looks so together and accurate

And, I also think it's different to even July. The attack has a different shape, the defence is definitely different. We're not "playing the same but better", we're playing different to be better.

And while yes, it's different, with hindsight you can see.thr building blocks from earlier. The selections, the tactics. Dry powder is a running joke, but I'm starting to believe it's real. We (and I doubt it's just us) do little bits of the ultimate plan with a longer game in mind.

We've bemoaned endless seemingly pointless phases. And here we are using thrm to wear out defences and kill the rush. We've bemoaned the passive defence but here it is, soaking attack, frustrating attacks that have been prepared to unlock the rush. The passive kick chase is clearly a tactic, I don't understand it, but the players very much do.

There has been a long game played here. We've learned what works and what doesn't. The teams who set out their stall years ago turned up (by the barest of margins) and got found out.

The coaches clearly played a long game. A long game that has pissed us off, but they have stuck to it. They've learned lessons, made necessary changes, adapted, and not shown the world how until last Saturday. I think Ireland last year was the catalyst.

Now look, it might all get pulled apart next week, because south africa are fucking good, and sometimes you just get beat. But I think some credit is due here.

I'm not sure how I feel about it TBH, but if they pull this off, then I need to eat shit tons of.humble pie

taniwharugby

@mariner4life haha yep, we've been watching the ABs battle with connect 4, while Fozzie and his team have been playing chess with a singular end game.

While I still hate alot of the past 4 years, given 3 or 4 weeks back, there were people saying we'd be lucky to get out of our pool, we might lose to Italy, we will get smacked by Ireland...

Now, after these 2 games, there is definitely a change, we have played some code worthy of making, and winning the RWC final

Machpants

Still not worth the last 4 years (6 really) but better than nothing. It shouldn't have taken till the Ireland series for them to figure it wasn't working. But now foster gets out he's doing bloody well

sparky

Last week in the All Blacks camp for Sam Whitelock, Aaron Smith, Beauden Barrett, BBBR and Colesy. You’ve been amazing guys. Thank you and good luck for the final.

canefan

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:

A comment, if I may

IMO the past 7 days is the best the ABs have looked since 2015. Everything looks so together and accurate

And, I also think it's different to even July. The attack has a different shape, the defence is definitely different. We're not "playing the same but better", we're playing different to be better.

And while yes, it's different, with hindsight you can see.thr building blocks from earlier. The selections, the tactics. Dry powder is a running joke, but I'm starting to believe it's real. We (and I doubt it's just us) do little bits of the ultimate plan with a longer game in mind.

We've bemoaned endless seemingly pointless phases. And here we are using thrm to wear out defences and kill the rush. We've bemoaned the passive defence but here it is, soaking attack, frustrating attacks that have been prepared to unlock the rush. The passive kick chase is clearly a tactic, I don't understand it, but the players very much do.

There has been a long game played here. We've learned what works and what doesn't. The teams who set out their stall years ago turned up (by the barest of margins) and got found out.

The coaches clearly played a long game. A long game that has pissed us off, but they have stuck to it. They've learned lessons, made necessary changes, adapted, and not shown the world how until last Saturday. I think Ireland last year was the catalyst.

Now look, it might all get pulled apart next week, because south africa are fucking good, and sometimes you just get beat. But I think some credit is due here.

I'm not sure how I feel about it TBH, but if they pull this off, then I need to eat shit tons of.humble pie

I can accept them building towards something. But some of the rugby we've played has been absolute dross, we've lost a bunch of tests which we are not accustomed to do, and if this was all part of the plan it took a man and group with an incredibly thick skin and a stubborn attitude to stay the course

mariner4life

I'm starting to think Ian Foster is a massive player and fucked your wives

African Monkey

@mariner4life It's not cool in this country to give him and Sam Cane credit.

KiwiMurph

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:

I'm starting to think Ian Foster is a massive player and fucked your wives

Every time he did the wives gave him a cookie

mariner4life

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2023:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:

I'm starting to think Ian Foster is a massive player and fucked your wives

Every time he did the wives gave him a cookie

All time sledge

The Silver Fern

All Blacks 2023