All Blacks 2024
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@Machpants said in Hurricanes 2024:
He raises some valid points
Tremendous sentence: I’m assuming (and hoping) that Robertson knows this and will pick the type of players who actually win you big games, rather than athletes that look a million bucks in a rout.
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
It's quite funny how we've gone from a complete lack of depth at 8 to now overflowing. I'd be very tempted to put Savea back to 7 and give Sotutu and Sititi a go - they've both really deserved it.
Finau - Savea - Sotutu/Sititi has a lot of power to it. It's a bit tough on Papps but it's an excitng combination.
When did we have a complete lack of depth at No 8?
Read was always a permanent fixture leading up to 2019 and since then we've had Savea, Jacobson and Sotutu all playing well (at Super Rugby level).
At the start of the year we Savea oversea's, Sotutu was someone who hadn't lived up to his potential and Sititi was completly unknown. Not exactly flush with depth.
It was wide open for someone to put their hand up as a 8, thankfully Sotutu and Sititi have done that this year.
Sotutu hasn't lived up the hype now any more than he had at the start of the year. If anything, he's got even more hype around him. He's always been a good player for the Blues, particularly in the last couple of years. Whether he can carry that into the Test season is anyone's guess (as it was last year and the hear before).
I'd say the hype around Sititi is even worse at the moment. He's had one great game against the Hurricanes and one great game against Moana Pasifika. Otherwise, he's failed to replicate that similar form in the games in between. He could absolutely become a Test great but it's not like he's had an absolutely standout season for the Chiefs, just a few great games (one in a semi-final when the world is watching).
The Super Rugby sides haven't struggled for top number 8s and while the All Blacks might have lacked depth, I wouldn't say anything's changed this year on that front - a few guys with great potential but still no one really proven to back up Savea.
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
It's quite funny how we've gone from a complete lack of depth at 8 to now overflowing. I'd be very tempted to put Savea back to 7 and give Sotutu and Sititi a go - they've both really deserved it.
Finau - Savea - Sotutu/Sititi has a lot of power to it. It's a bit tough on Papps but it's an excitng combination.
When did we have a complete lack of depth at No 8?
Read was always a permanent fixture leading up to 2019 and since then we've had Savea, Jacobson and Sotutu all playing well (at Super Rugby level).
At the start of the year we Savea oversea's, Sotutu was someone who hadn't lived up to his potential and Sititi was completly unknown. Not exactly flush with depth.
It was wide open for someone to put their hand up as a 8, thankfully Sotutu and Sititi have done that this year.
Sotutu hasn't lived up the hype now any more than he had at the start of the year. If anything, he's got even more hype around him. He's always been a good player for the Blues, particularly in the last couple of years. Whether he can carry that into the Test season is anyone's guess (as it was last year and the hear before).
I'd say the hype around Sititi is even worse at the moment. He's had one great game against the Hurricanes and one great game against Moana Pasifika. Otherwise, he's failed to replicate that similar form in the games in between. He could absolutely become a Test great but it's not like he's had an absolutely standout season for the Chiefs, just a few great games (one in a semi-final when the world is watching).
The Super Rugby sides haven't struggled for top number 8s and while the All Blacks might have lacked depth, I wouldn't say anything's changed this year on that front - a few guys with great potential but still no one really proven to back up Savea.
I understand where your coming from in that Sotutu and Sititi aren't proven test #8's and that good SR form does not translate to the test arena.
My post in terms of depth is probably more along the lines of optimisim. Sotutu is in career best form and looks to have wokred hard on his game to be more dominant and effective. Sititi has come out of nowhere to be a true bolter for the squad.
Lets just say I'm a lot more optimistic about us finding a back up to Savea at 8 now than what I was at the start of the season.
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@Machpants said in Hurricanes 2024:
He raises some valid points
Tremendous sentence: I’m assuming (and hoping) that Robertson knows this and will pick the type of players who actually win you big games, rather than athletes that look a million bucks in a rout.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Machpants said in Hurricanes 2024:
He raises some valid points
Tremendous sentence: I’m assuming (and hoping) that Robertson knows this and will pick the type of players who actually win you big games, rather than athletes that look a million bucks in a rout.
Coming from the Roar that doesn't mean much. Under Laidlaw, the Canes were a much better side this year and played some great rugby, injuries to key players at the wrong time of the season didn't help and we just failed to peak at the right time unfortunately, I'm sure that group will be better for the experience. My expectation for this side moving forward is to be title contenders for the next 5 or so years at least with the cattle we have locked up.
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@nzzp And no new names were written down for the squad after the Semi Final. What they saw confirmed their opinions about a number of players they have been already looking at.
Can they make Super any more irrelevant?
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@nzzp And no new names were written down for the squad after the Semi Final. What they saw confirmed their opinions about a number of players they have been already looking at.
Can they make Super any more irrelevant?
I guess we read into things the way we want, but I read MacDonald's comment as meaning no player played their way in or way out on the weekend. At least they have a firm idea of who they want and the way they want to play. I'd be worried if they didn't.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Machpants said in Hurricanes 2024:
He raises some valid points
Tremendous sentence: I’m assuming (and hoping) that Robertson knows this and will pick the type of players who actually win you big games, rather than athletes that look a million bucks in a rout.
Coming from the Roar that doesn't mean much. Under Laidlaw, the Canes were a much better side this year and played some great rugby, injuries to key players at the wrong time of the season didn't help and we just failed to peak at the right time unfortunately, I'm sure that group will be better for the experience. My expectation for this side moving forward is to be title contenders for the next 5 or so years at least with the cattle we have locked up.
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@Canes4life wrong thread
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This is all why i said i was more interested in HOW we try and play, if we see things reminiscent of Bridge trying to be a bulldozer (and failing) doing crash balls in from the blind side wing or persisting with helter skelter shit like cross field kick passes inside our own 22....then i will get on the razor out bandwagon...if we can see game plans and selections changing depending on who we're playing, experimentation with some innovation and actually addressing areas our opposition are targeting....then he gets the time he needs
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
if we can see game plans and selections changing depending on who we're playing, experimentation with some innovation and actually addressing areas our opposition are targeting....then he gets the time he needs
Been banging this drum as well. However, it's subjective and results are still key so it isn't a blank cheque for the first season or two.
If we're still rocks and diamonds and play like against England last year, I think questions need to be asked.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
2020 Foster record 3-1-2, losses to AUS ARG
2021 12-3, losing to SAR FRA IREWe thought 21 was a disaster and it was. That's got to be the bar
2020 was the big problem for Fozzie.
He got off to a terrible start and was always behind the eight ball afterwards, especially given perceptions that he'd never been a good head coach and was a bit of a "jobs for the boys" appointment. And especially because it was covid times and people were looking for some good news. I think the expectation would have been 6-0 for those series, but 5-1 would have been a pass mark.
By comparison, if Razor doesn't win 4-0 vs Australia and Argentina, he'll struggle mightily to achieve my 10-4 benchmark.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
2020 Foster record 3-1-2, losses to AUS ARG
2021 12-3, losing to SAR FRA IREWe thought 21 was a disaster and it was. That's got to be the bar
2020 was the big problem for Fozzie.
He got off to a terrible start and was always behind the eight ball afterwards, especially given perceptions that he'd never been a good head coach and was a bit of a "jobs for the boys" appointment.
We have the exact opposite now. People's expectations are much higher as a result.
By comparison, if Razor doesn't win 4-0 vs Australia and Argentina, he'll struggle mightily to achieve my 10-4 benchmark.
Depends on the nature of the losses, but 10-4 would be a low bar for many people.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
2020 Foster record 3-1-2, losses to AUS ARG
2021 12-3, losing to SAR FRA IREWe thought 21 was a disaster and it was. That's got to be the bar
2020 was the big problem for Fozzie.
He got off to a terrible start and was always behind the eight ball afterwards, especially given perceptions that he'd never been a good head coach and was a bit of a "jobs for the boys" appointment. And especially because it was covid times and people were looking for some good news. I think the expectation would have been 6-0 for those series, but 5-1 would have been a pass mark.
By comparison, if Razor doesn't win 4-0 vs Australia and Argentina, he'll struggle mightily to achieve my 10-4 benchmark.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
2020 was the big problem for Fozzie.
Moving forward people ...
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I'm really excited for this international season
I don't think I could put a number on the win loss, for me it is more about the selections, gameplan, innovation, development. I want us to by innovators, not just a team that still struggle to deal with what other teams are doing.
If I see that happening I can totally tolerate some losses.
If we just look same old, might as well have kept the fat guy. -
I'm really excited for this international season
I don't think I could put a number on the win loss, for me it is more about the selections, gameplan, innovation, development. I want us to by innovators, not just a team that still struggle to deal with what other teams are doing.
If I see that happening I can totally tolerate some losses.
If we just look same old, might as well have kept the fat guy.I am sure we will see all the things you want and also the things you don’t want!
We won’t have things all our own way and we have virtually all of our bigger test are away from home this year.
One thing that Razor has done is to have a smart game plan and bring innovation to it. He also improves players who play for him. The Crusaders side he took over was full of new players and future test stars and he created a dynasty from that,l.
It is an exciting proposition and we have a group of players that can become a very strong All Black squad in time.
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I am sure we will see all the things you want and also the things you don’t want!
We won’t have things all our own way and we have virtually all of our bigger test are away from home this year.
One thing that Razor has done is to have a smart game plan and bring innovation to it. He also improves players who play for him. The Crusaders side he took over was full of new players and future test stars and he created a dynasty from that,l.
It is an exciting proposition and we have a group of players that can become a very strong All Black squad in time.
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I am sure we will see all the things you want and also the things you don’t want!
We won’t have things all our own way and we have virtually all of our bigger test are away from home this year.
One thing that Razor has done is to have a smart game plan and bring innovation to it. He also improves players who play for him. The Crusaders side he took over was full of new players and future test stars and he created a dynasty from that,l.
It is an exciting proposition and we have a group of players that can become a very strong All Black squad in time.
Like Craig Bellamy, Razor seemed to have a knack of getting the best out of his individual players over a long period of time
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Leon MacDonald confirmed on the Breakdown that it will be a 32 man squad with 18 forwards and 14 backs.
@sparky said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Leon MacDonald confirmed on the Breakdown that it will be a 32 man squad with 18 forwards and 14 backs.
Any more info on the breakdown of the forwards? In a smaller squad there will be a squeeze on one of the positions
3 Hookers, 6 Props, 4 Locks, 6 Loosies = 19. One too many
I've seen a few in media suggest only 3 locks. But that would be one rolled ankle in warmup away from having Finau cover lock
5 loosies. Maybe? I think they'll want to look at more than that
5 Props might make the most sense? 2 LH, 2 TH & Ofa?
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Leon MacDonald confirmed on the Breakdown that it will be a 32 man squad with 18 forwards and 14 backs.
Any more info on the breakdown of the forwards? In a smaller squad there will be a squeeze on one of the positions
3 Hookers, 6 Props, 4 Locks, 6 Loosies = 19. One too many
I've seen a few in media suggest only 3 locks. But that would be one rolled ankle in warmup away from having Finau cover lock
5 loosies. Maybe? I think they'll want to look at more than that
5 Props might make the most sense? 2 LH, 2 TH & Ofa?
@Duluth highly likely that it will be 5 props. They can always bring someone in pretty quickly if needed. I think they'll go 6 loosies so they have 2 players covering each loose forward position.
I'm picking the below.
Forwards:
3 Hookers = C Taylor, A Aumua, R Riccitelli
5 Props = F Newell, E De Groot, T Williams, T Lomax, O Tu'ungafasi
4 Locks = S Barrett, T Vaa'i, S Darry, P Tuipolotu
6 Loose forwards = A Savea, H Sotutu, D Papali'i, S Finau, P Lakai, E BlackadderBacks:
3 Halfbacks = T Perenara, C Ratima, F Christie
2 First fives = D McKenzie, B Barrett
4 Centres = J Barrett, R Ioane, B Proctor, A Leinert Brown
5 Outside backs = C Clarke, M Telea, S Reece, E Narawa, R LoveInjured: W Jordan, S Taukei'aho, C Roigard, J Lord
Blues = 11
Chiefs = 6
Hurricanes = 8
Crusaders = 6
Highlanders = 1 -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
2020 Foster record 3-1-2, losses to AUS ARG
2021 12-3, losing to SAR FRA IREWe thought 21 was a disaster and it was. That's got to be the bar
2020 was the big problem for Fozzie.
He got off to a terrible start and was always behind the eight ball afterwards, especially given perceptions that he'd never been a good head coach and was a bit of a "jobs for the boys" appointment.
We have the exact opposite now. People's expectations are much higher as a result.
By comparison, if Razor doesn't win 4-0 vs Australia and Argentina, he'll struggle mightily to achieve my 10-4 benchmark.
Depends on the nature of the losses, but 10-4 would be a low bar for many people.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Depends on the nature of the losses, but 10-4 would be a low bar for many people.
To quote Marcellus Wallace: "You see, this profession is filled to the brim with unrealistic motherfuckers."
I guess everyone has their own expectations. I'm reading what Grubster is writing and thinking I'm on the same page.
One thing I haven't really taken into account is to what extent these other teams are rebuilding.
England for instance seem to have pretty much the same forward pack they used at the RWC, but the backs are markedly different. The couple of preview articles I've read suggest they're playing more expansively and the English have some optimism that they might catch us undercooked. Considering Razor's got two weeks to unfold his gameplan (and sprinkle his magic dust around) that wouldn't surprise me.
If we go down to the poms the sharks will be taking chunks out of the sufboard before he's paddled past the breakers.
Given I didn't watch the Six Nations - what should we expect from England? Is this basically the team they used - or did they have Farrell etc?
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Leon MacDonald confirmed on the Breakdown that it will be a 32 man squad with 18 forwards and 14 backs.
Any more info on the breakdown of the forwards? In a smaller squad there will be a squeeze on one of the positions
3 Hookers, 6 Props, 4 Locks, 6 Loosies = 19. One too many
I've seen a few in media suggest only 3 locks. But that would be one rolled ankle in warmup away from having Finau cover lock
5 loosies. Maybe? I think they'll want to look at more than that
5 Props might make the most sense? 2 LH, 2 TH & Ofa?
@Duluth Hard to know how they'll break it down.
For me - the logical way to do it is to pick the starting XV plus the bench - and then have one spare in each specialist position.
One loosehead
One tighthead
One hooker
One lock
One loosie
One halfback
One first five
One midfielder
One wing
One fullbackThat's one too many, but I'm expecting Beauden will be a first five and fullback.
As you say, they could have Ofa covering both sides to allow themselves an extra loose forward.
I hope they pick three first fives and not four wings.
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hmmmm....
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I'm really excited for this international season
I don't think I could put a number on the win loss, for me it is more about the selections, gameplan, innovation, development. I want us to by innovators, not just a team that still struggle to deal with what other teams are doing.
If I see that happening I can totally tolerate some losses.
If we just look same old, might as well have kept the fat guy.@Darren said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
If we just look same old, might as well have kept the fat guy.
