Leon MacDonald Quits
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@Frank said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Genuinely a concern that the coaching group is falling apart after only 5 tests. They have worked together before and I would hope of known what was expected promised etc. Not sure this is what we were sold.
Are my eyes deceiving me or are you questioning the coaches?
Is it the status quo actually changing that makes you uncomfortable?
I questioning the fact that coaching group seems to be falling apart? Yes.
I genuinely thought before you put group together you kind of make sure you have same philosophy on coaching.
Seems if you read it I just actually agreeing with Razor, he f***ed up forming his team.
Interesting thing is I recall reading a Jason Holland interview where he said he left Crusaders because his and Razor had piliosophical differences in coaching. It was in Rugby News in last couple if years, said they were good mates but didn't work as a group.@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Frank said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Dan54 said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Genuinely a concern that the coaching group is falling apart after only 5 tests. They have worked together before and I would hope of known what was expected promised etc. Not sure this is what we were sold.
Are my eyes deceiving me or are you questioning the coaches?
Is it the status quo actually changing that makes you uncomfortable?
I questioning the fact that coaching group seems to be falling apart? Yes.
I genuinely thought before you put group together you kind of make sure you have same philosophy on coaching.
Seems if you read it I just actually agreeing with Razor, he f***ed up forming his team.
Interesting thing is I recall reading a Jason Holland interview where he said he left Crusaders because his and Razor had piliosophical differences in coaching. It was in Rugby News in last couple if years, said they were good mates but didn't work as a group.Its like marrying a bird and finding out 3 months in she doesnt want kids.
Bizarre that they didnt do their "due diligence" on each other before proposing/accepting the roles.
Appreciate the ruthlessness in moving on quickly though.
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Start Ratima
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Start Ratima
@BerniesCorner said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Start Ratima
This is my philosophy. We have to select positively. I hope Leons departure leads to a sea change.
We have to roll the dice with our potential upsides.
Ratima, Jordan, Roigard in the RWC final.
Pick the team based on posing the other teams problems, dont select based on what problems they will cause us.
Line breaks and pace and having their fatties running back towards their own poles gets us penalties, advantage, and maybe yellow cards for offside or cynical play etc.
We have to get in behind them.
They will lap up a slow scrum half and slow midfield plodders all day.
Lets move them around the pitch, and be in the refs ear about time wasting all week and at every stoppage in the match so as to negate strategic breathers.
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100%
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@Cyclops said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Didn't this happen after Razor's first year at the Crusaders as well?
From memory, LM quit the Crusaders for family reasons after 2017 and was happy just doing NPC. Then he took the Blues job in 2019
@Duluth said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Cyclops said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Didn't this happen after Razor's first year at the Crusaders as well?
From memory, LM quit the Crusaders for family reasons after 2017 and was happy just doing NPC. Then he took the Blues job in 2019
I missed a step in this post
The job LM originally took at the Blues was as an assistant coach. Umaga got sacked not long after and he became the head coach
So his exit from the Crusaders never made sense. He quit as assistant coach for family reasons.. a few months later he takes a different SR assistant coach job
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Kind of feels like we are back in the pre-Henry days before the Henry, Smith, Hanson tidied up the management of the ABs.
Back the Deans/Mitchell period of weirdness.
Some voices from outside of Canterbury would be nice, not even having the Blues Canterbury voice able to work is concerning. All very insular.
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Razor seems to be coming across as a "my way or the highway" type of coach. Coaches with differing views and approaches should be a good thing in a high performance environment really as they should be able to challenge each others ideas.
Not rugby, but I remember reading McCullum's book and he and Hesson had very different approaches to the game; McCullum was all out attack and risk taking, and Hesson was conservative. McCullum said this worked really well as they found a good middle ground where they would play attacking cricket, while reigning in some of the risk taking McCullum was famous for, and they were hugely successful as a result as they were always challenging each other.
I hope Razor is not just surrounding himself with 'yes men' instead of wanting to be challenged by his coaching team on what the best approach is.
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Razor seems to be coming across as a "my way or the highway" type of coach. Coaches with differing views and approaches should be a good thing in a high performance environment really as they should be able to challenge each others ideas.
Not rugby, but I remember reading McCullum's book and he and Hesson had very different approaches to the game; McCullum was all out attack and risk taking, and Hesson was conservative. McCullum said this worked really well as they found a good middle ground where they would play attacking cricket, while reigning in some of the risk taking McCullum was famous for, and they were hugely successful as a result as they were always challenging each other.
I hope Razor is not just surrounding himself with 'yes men' instead of wanting to be challenged by his coaching team on what the best approach is.
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
I hope Razor is not just surrounding himself with 'yes men' instead of wanting to be challenged by his coaching team on what the best approach is.
genuine question, but why? Like it or not, the buck stops with the head coach. He's the one who gets judged on the results. If Razor is very clear on how he wants to do things, and wants guys who will support and drive that, then that to me is a good thing. One chef, a bunch of line cooks to take care of the detail.
And if the food sucks, then he gets fired.
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I wonder if the AB performance during Argie test 1 was a major reason for this.
@nostrildamus said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
I wonder if the AB performance during Argie test 1 was a major reason for this.
May not be a direct reason like blaming him , but I remember Ted used to say a loss always makes you look within more at what’s not working well
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@Duluth said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Cyclops said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Didn't this happen after Razor's first year at the Crusaders as well?
From memory, LM quit the Crusaders for family reasons after 2017 and was happy just doing NPC. Then he took the Blues job in 2019
I missed a step in this post
The job LM originally took at the Blues was as an assistant coach. Umaga got sacked not long after and he became the head coach
So his exit from the Crusaders never made sense. He quit as assistant coach for family reasons.. a few months later he takes a different SR assistant coach job
@Duluth said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Duluth said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Cyclops said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Didn't this happen after Razor's first year at the Crusaders as well?
From memory, LM quit the Crusaders for family reasons after 2017 and was happy just doing NPC. Then he took the Blues job in 2019
I missed a step in this post
The job LM originally took at the Blues was as an assistant coach. Umaga got sacked not long after and he became the head coach
So his exit from the Crusaders never made sense. He quit as assistant coach for family reasons.. a few months later he takes a different SR assistant coach job
Unless family reasons meant we have to move to AKL for some reason
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@Duluth said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Duluth said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Cyclops said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Didn't this happen after Razor's first year at the Crusaders as well?
From memory, LM quit the Crusaders for family reasons after 2017 and was happy just doing NPC. Then he took the Blues job in 2019
I missed a step in this post
The job LM originally took at the Blues was as an assistant coach. Umaga got sacked not long after and he became the head coach
So his exit from the Crusaders never made sense. He quit as assistant coach for family reasons.. a few months later he takes a different SR assistant coach job
Unless family reasons meant we have to move to AKL for some reason
@canefan said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Duluth said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Duluth said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
@Cyclops said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Didn't this happen after Razor's first year at the Crusaders as well?
From memory, LM quit the Crusaders for family reasons after 2017 and was happy just doing NPC. Then he took the Blues job in 2019
I missed a step in this post
The job LM originally took at the Blues was as an assistant coach. Umaga got sacked not long after and he became the head coach
So his exit from the Crusaders never made sense. He quit as assistant coach for family reasons.. a few months later he takes a different SR assistant coach job
Unless family reasons meant we have to move to AKL for some reason
No, he specifically said family reasons that meant staying in Ta$man. His wifes business, kids schools & spending more time with them in general
Clearly that wasn't the reason he left the Crusaders
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@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
I hope Razor is not just surrounding himself with 'yes men' instead of wanting to be challenged by his coaching team on what the best approach is.
genuine question, but why? Like it or not, the buck stops with the head coach. He's the one who gets judged on the results. If Razor is very clear on how he wants to do things, and wants guys who will support and drive that, then that to me is a good thing. One chef, a bunch of line cooks to take care of the detail.
And if the food sucks, then he gets fired.
@mariner4life agreed, they can be on different pages, but with the same big picture, but it thier big picture looks different....
It has been some time since they have worked together, both no doubt grown in the way they see the game and how they want to play.
I think people seem to be looking too deep for there to be something more controversial going on; maybe Leon just didnt like not being the head honcho anymore? Or maybe there is some BS?
The fact they found this out now, rather than midway in 2026 is a good thing, surely.
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@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
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I wonder if the AB performance during Argie test 1 was a major reason for this.
@nostrildamus said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
I wonder if the AB performance during Argie test 1 was a major reason for this.
I would suggest it was the attack in both English tests and the first Argie test (Leon's remit).
It was not working.
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Razor seems to be coming across as a "my way or the highway" type of coach. Coaches with differing views and approaches should be a good thing in a high performance environment really as they should be able to challenge each others ideas.
Not rugby, but I remember reading McCullum's book and he and Hesson had very different approaches to the game; McCullum was all out attack and risk taking, and Hesson was conservative. McCullum said this worked really well as they found a good middle ground where they would play attacking cricket, while reigning in some of the risk taking McCullum was famous for, and they were hugely successful as a result as they were always challenging each other.
I hope Razor is not just surrounding himself with 'yes men' instead of wanting to be challenged by his coaching team on what the best approach is.
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Razor seems to be coming across as a "my way or the highway" type of coach. Coaches with differing views and approaches should be a good thing in a high performance environment really as they should be able to challenge each others ideas.
Not rugby, but I remember reading McCullum's book and he and Hesson had very different approaches to the game; McCullum was all out attack and risk taking, and Hesson was conservative. McCullum said this worked really well as they found a good middle ground where they would play attacking cricket, while reigning in some of the risk taking McCullum was famous for, and they were hugely successful as a result as they were always challenging each other.
I hope Razor is not just surrounding himself with 'yes men' instead of wanting to be challenged by his coaching team on what the best approach is.
Challenging is fine, but at some point the leader needs to make a decision and everyone else needs to get on board with it. Once the decision is made, the others need to adopt it as their own.
I'm pleased they came to this decision because this is Razor's show.
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i really wish i wasn't so ignorant and knew how an elite level rugby team handled training. Specifically, what did the coaching org chart look like?
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?It seems like a lot of voices for a fluid game like rugby.
In a sport like NFL, yes they have a lot of coaches. But they also have 3 distinct "teams" and enormous rosters. And the coaches are responsible for very specific areas. And you can easily see the triangle and reporting lines.
In rugby it is way different. Who is in charge of the breakdown? Forwards coach? Contact coach? does it depend on who has the ball? Or what number they wear?
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i really wish i wasn't so ignorant and knew how an elite level rugby team handled training. Specifically, what did the coaching org chart look like?
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?It seems like a lot of voices for a fluid game like rugby.
In a sport like NFL, yes they have a lot of coaches. But they also have 3 distinct "teams" and enormous rosters. And the coaches are responsible for very specific areas. And you can easily see the triangle and reporting lines.
In rugby it is way different. Who is in charge of the breakdown? Forwards coach? Contact coach? does it depend on who has the ball? Or what number they wear?
@mariner4life said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
Head Coach
Attack coach - Defense coach
Forwards Coach - Backs Coach
Contract Skills - Lineout coach - scrum coach?These modern rugby players are getting pretty bloody greedy.
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To be gone so quickly implies some pretty major philisophical disagreements on how the game should be played.
Seems they couldn't sort them out between themselves and that was starting to effect the team.
Is it a good decison for one of them to go? Yes as the longer it goes on it will effect the team more and more - just look at Grizz and Hart for reference.
Is it a good look for the AB's coaching group? No.
Personally I was a little surprised that Leon got the job as I simply thought there were better coach's out there. I think anyone who's watched SR this year would agree with that.
Will be interesting to see how the AB's stump up in SA, whether it lights a fire to perform or if it de-motivates the team.
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@mariner4life because if you surround yourself with people that will only agree with you, you can become very insular and it makes it hard to see the wood from the trees if things aren't going to plan. You need your ideas challenged to make sure they are actually good ideas, especially if you are a coach with zero international experience.
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
@No-Quarter said in Leon MacDonald Quits:
It's a balance for sure, if MacDonald was deliberately going behind Razor's back and working against him then that is a problem, but at the same time if he's challenging Razor on some of his ideas and Razor isn't responding appropriately that's also a problem.
It's all speculation, I am just bored at work on a Friday trying to pass the time
I suspect it's probably more or less as Razor says - they've got fundamental differences in how they think the ABs should be playing.
Hopefully it's not Leon who's been saying things like:
This frenetic shit will never work in test rugby. If we play like this against the Boks we'll get our arses handed to us in a hat!
You've got to earn the right to go wide.
Picking three 7.5s will never work. We need to pick Hoskins!
Hoping we can get Richie the Mo back to save your sorry ass is not a sound gtame plan.
Hopefully the halftime conversation on Saturday didn't go anything like:
Razor: What have you got those fucking backs doing, Rangi?
Leon: Playing rugby!
Razor: That's it - you're fired. On your bike, son!
Right lads - back to my plan.....
OR: Theory 2 - Leon is actually Winger, in which case I can see where the philosophical differences might lie!
